Pros/Cons of reloading

PKSII · February 27, 2006, 12:14 PM

I was talking to a guy at the range yesterday about reloading since I was thinking about starting reloading myself and I was wondering if I could get some opinions from you guys/gals here. (All the numbers I have here are rough estimates for .45 ACP, as that's what I'd be reloading right now).

1. Not looking at the cost of the reloader itself, is it really as economical as it's claimed to be? The only numbers I've found so far vary from ~$4 / 50 rounds to ~$7 / 50 rounds, which is about a quarter to half the price of a new box (~$15 / 50 rounds). I haven't found prices for supplies yet (haven't looked all that close really), but what do you normally spend on primers, powder, bullets, etc? Do you normally buy supplies at your local shop or online or through a catalog? How much do prices usually vary between those places?

I used to reload shotgun shells and finally crunched the numbers one time (mostly out of curiosity), and found that the amount I was saving was almost non-existent. Granted, I wasn't being incredibly precise with the costs then, but I re-looked at it a couple times and it was still a fairly insignificant amount of savings...

I can imagine the savings would be more significant for less common rifle rounds and such, but is there that big of a difference for something as common as .45 ACP?

2. Other benefits... The guy I talked to at the range said one of the things he liked most about reloading rounds himself was that he could make lighter loads for league (200 gr vs 230 gr) to reduce recoil and have quicker target acquisition between shots. Is the reduced recoil really that noticable? Even assuming costs end up the same in the long run, is the effect from using lighter loads worth the time and effort put into reloading yourself?

3. What other advantages/disadvantages are there? In short, why do you or don't you reload your own (though I'm assuming most of the people that read this do reload their own)?

Curious,
PK

Crosshair · February 27, 2006, 12:36 PM

You save the most with rifle rounds, not so much with some handgun rounds. (9mm, etc) If you you pulldown powders (Like I do) then you can save even more, but the selection of surplus powder is limited. I use mainly range pickup brass for handgun with no problems. Here are some rough firgure for my 38 special.

Brass = Free (Range pickup.) New is about $12 per 100
Primers = $18-19 per 1000
Bullets = $40-50 per 1000
Powder = Depends on how much you use. Usualy $20-30

Total for 1000 rounds 38 Special with range brass is about $80-100

The only real cost that can't be measured is your time, but I enjoy the reloading so it is not an issue for me.

Edward429451 · February 27, 2006, 12:42 PM

I can reload 45 acp's for 7 dollars a box of 50 with all virgin componants and premium jacketed bullets.

I reload range ammo in 45acp for 1.50 a box of 50. Used brass, cast lead bullets.

Premium (virgin) 44 mags for 10 bucks a box.
Range/hunting 44 mags for 4 dollars a box.

You'll spend more money for the outlay of componants because you have to buy bulk but you get more bang for your buck with the added benefit of being able to tailor your ammo to specific needs and being able to make ammo that is not available to the open market.

It's worth it.

rnovi · February 27, 2006, 01:15 PM

PKS:

"I can imagine the savings would be more significant for less common rifle rounds and such, but is there that big of a difference for something as common as .45 ACP?"

Oh YES! Very much so! I reload around 8k of .45acp a year and another 5k of .38 specials. (Plus assorted .357's, 9mm, and .350RemMag).

To your direct questions:

1. Is reloading economical? Yep, on all fronts.
Brass: I buy my own brass, but reload it some 20 times or so before it gets discarted. So brass cost is virtually nil. I do NOT like picking up range brass. On several occassions I have picked up a .45 GAP or a small primer Winchester brass and it is a pain to make sure I've sorted it out. However, I do NOT shoot auto's anymore - I just hate to chase my brass anymore and love my 625JM.
Bullets: Cast Lead: $20 for 500 bullets or $0.04 each. If you cast your own from discarded wheelweights, it may as well be free.
Primers: $21 for 1000 or $0.021 each.
Powder: $17 for 7000 grains of TiteGroup: roughly $0.01 per round.

Total cost per bullet: $0.07 per bullet. Or, $3.50 per box of 50 rounds.

2. I buy my components from a local shop. I don't reload enough pistol to justify 8# jugs of powder or the like...yet.

If you choose to go with a premium bullet from Speer or Hornady, you will pay more. Around $0.15 per bullet or so. Still, That comes to around $0.18 per shot, or $9.00 a box. Comparative priced to cheap factory ammo, but your handloads should be much more accurate.

Way back when I bought it, my Hornady ProJector press (and full setup) cost around $200. It paid for itself within two months.

auto45 · February 27, 2006, 01:18 PM

It's economical in 45 to reload, but it depends on on how much you shoot IMO.

Prices vary, but you can buy low end ACP for around $8.70-$11.00 depending on steel cased, deals, freight, etc, etc. You can also buy "reloaded" ammo in that price range I believe. If you are going to spend $15.00 for a box, start reloading now.

You can load for around $6.00 on "average", just to keep it simple.

Let's say you save $3.00 per box of 50 and $30.00 per case of 500. Shoot only a 1000 rounds a year and that's a savings of $60. Shoot 5,000...save $300, shoot 10,000...save $600 and so on. I think those numbers are conservative and you save each year...think long term.

In my "estimations" I've saved, minus the cost of equipment, around $4700 in my 45 "reloading life".

12 gauge shotshell reloading, which I still do, is not particulary cost effective now because all the "promo" shells available at cheap prices. I think that's going to change as lead prices catch up to them, but time will tell.

caz223 · February 27, 2006, 01:19 PM

A couple axioms and some hard and fast truths.
Rule 1: You don't reload to save money, you reload to shoot more.
If you wanted to save money, you wouldn't be shooting.
Rule 2: Reloaders are better shooters.
Because they shoot more, and typically the ammo they make is better, they practice better. They also in time learn what is 'wrong' with the factory ammo they buy, and how to correct it.
Rule 3: Reloading doesn't save you any money if you buy your supplies by the hundred in retail locally.
But when you figure out what bullets you like, find the best places to buy them cheap online, and buy them in quantities where you start to get price breaks, you can save big.

Ok, now that you got all that, a couple facts:
The better equipment you buy (The more money you spend.) The faster and less labor intensive your sessions will be (The more you will save.)
I'll give you an example. If you load .45, for instance.
I'll just use my .45 loads as an example. I load 200 grain XTP-HP bullets, CCI primers, and alliant unique powder on a dillon 550.
That's not only a JHP, but it's a premium JHP. I use starline cases. Best you can buy IMHO. Unique is excellent in .45, and no one will argue with that.
So, I use the best components.
Powder, $18.00 a pound locally, 7 grains per load, 7000 grains per pound, that gives us $18.00 in powder per thousand.
Primers, about the same, $18.00 per thousand.
I buy bullets by the box from midwayUSA, and wait until they're on sale, but even so, they wind up costing me $12.00 a box plus shipping.
We will estimate $14.00 per hundred, so $140 per thousand.
140+18+18= $176 per thousand for premium ammo.
That's $8.80 a box, when the best I could do locally is $12.00 a box for generic crap.
If I shot plated or lead I could easily cut the cost of ammo down to $100 per thousand. Even name brand JHPs would save me $50 per thousand.
But the loads I use shoot like a laser, practice easy, load easy, and are good for varmints.
You say "You forgot to add the cost of your time."
OK.
I load on a progressive, and I load pretty consistantly at 450 rounds an hour.
That's nine boxes an hour.
$12.00 a box minus 8.80= $3.20 a box times 9 boxes an hour. That's $28.80 an hour I'm 'making' when I make my own premium ammo at home. That's better than what I can buy generic crap for.
And I could save a LOT more money on component selection and buy bigger.
Truth be told, I don't really save money on .45, I just shoot better stuff than I could afford. Now, 10mm, .41 mag, .44 mag, .357 mag, 357SIG, etc, etc THOSE I save money on.
I load 9mm at a 'loss' but shoot waaaaayyyyy better stuff than I could justify buying when the cheap stuff is $6.00 a box locally at wal-mart.

caz223 · February 27, 2006, 01:32 PM

The same study on .41 mag and the same estimates.
Powder, blue dot, 13.5 grains per load.
500 loads per pound, powder runs $15 a pound from powder valley.
That $30/1000 for powder.
$20/1000 for primers. (CCI magnum from powder valley, paying for mazmat and all that.)
And the same XTP-HP bullets from midway at $12.00 a box, except I bought 'em in bulk at LSB (Blem, but I sure can't see any blems.) $90 per thousand. Figure $100/1000
That's still $150 per thousand. $7.50 per box. This is still premium ammo.
Locally, they are at VERY LEAST $25 per box of 50.
I'm saving $17.50 ber box. Times 9 boxes an hour. That's $157.50 an hour.
NOW I'm saving money.

***EDIT***
I'm being VERY conservative, I'm prolly SAVING $25 a box of 50.

Mr_Magoo · February 27, 2006, 01:46 PM

I got into reloading because I had bought 1000 rounds of .357 ammo that had problems. Primers set too deep causing missfires, etc. I thought I could do better.

I tore down the 900 or so I had left and discovered one of them did not even have a flash hole!

I still wonder what would have happened if I had shot that one . . .

Everything I load is as good as I can make it. I am anal on how I prep components. All primer pockets uniformed, all flash holes are reamed, Cases are sized-trimmed-deburred-polished-and treated to all the TLC my ex never deserved . . .

I use a dedicated benchtop APC primer press set to correct depth, then use a Rockchucker to load one step at a time.

Bottom line is that my general welfare and safety is priceless. I only shoot loads I have made because I trust myself to do it right. A side benifit is reloading is relaxing. I can't really put a price on that, but it is a heck of a lot cheaper that seeing a shrink or a hooker. Nothin' like prepping brass while singin' to the oldies.

PKSII · February 27, 2006, 03:35 PM

Many many thanks everyone. Breaking it down by the numbers like that is exactly what I wanted to see (This place rocks

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by auto

12 gauge shotshell reloading, which I still do, is not particulary cost effective now because all the "promo" shells available at cheap prices.

Yep, I think when I figured it out, I was saving a ~2 cents per shell reloading 12 ga. and for the kind of shooting I was doing, it wasn't worth it anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crosshair

The only real cost that can't be measured is your time, but I enjoy the reloading so it is not an issue for me.

Right, I didnt mention that, but I never minded sitting around for an hour or two reloading shotgun shells, so I didn't figure I'd mind spending the time doing this either.

dakotashooter2 · February 27, 2006, 06:39 PM

You will never safe that much on the low end loads but you will save a lot when you start loading high end stuff. A good example is the "premium" rifle ammunition. The only added cost a reloader has over his standard load is the price of a premium bullet while the factorys will increase the price beyond the extra cost of the premium bullet even though the cost of the other components remains the same. Game loads for the shotgun are the same. The added cost for the extra shot and powder generally amounts to less than a couple pennies per load but the factories will double or triple the cost of a box (over target loads) which probably only cost them and extra 50 cents to make.

PKSII · February 28, 2006, 10:26 AM

How many people here cast their own bullets? How big of a process is that? I'm pretty sure I'm not going to do that anytime soon, but I'd be interested to hear what everyone thinks of it.

jsflagstad · February 28, 2006, 02:43 PM

I load my 40S&W for about $1.50 per box. I use range brass and cast my own bullets from wheel weights.

I got set up casting for about $60 (Lee Production Pot $40 and Lee Mold $17) and I cast "tumble lube" bullets that don't require sizing and they are accurate as all get out. Here is my process: Melt down wheel weights skim off junk from top of pot, add 10% chilled lead shot (has arsenic that helps in the hardening process), flux and skim again, as soon as the molten lead is ready start molding and demold the first dozen or so bullets into a dry container until the mold heats up and starts making better quailty bullets, when I start getting good bullets (warmed mold) I then start demolding them into a gallon pail 1/2 full of ice water for hardening. After I have molded 200 or so, I pull them out of the ice water and dry them off, then put them in my vibratory tumbler for a couple of hours to break the sharp edges and flash off (this step not absolutely necessary), For tumble lubing, I use Lee Liquid Ilox thinned down with mineral spirits and I tumble them in an old peanut butter jar.

Don't be afraid to cast your own as that is where I found a large savings when it came to handgun rounds.

JSF

skeet47 · February 28, 2006, 03:58 PM

As a brass wholesaler my brass is free.And I recycle range lead to a caster that gives me bullets in return,so my costs are very low.if you have someone in your group or club with a class 06 FFL you can buy powder for around $11 per lb.And we get primers for $11 -12 per thousand in bulk.You have to buy larger quantities but if you get a few guys together it's well worth it.

Dogjaw · March 1, 2006, 07:26 AM

rnovi hit it on the head, and saved me a lot of typing.

I'll just add that I reload Hornady 158 gr. XTP in .357 mag for $7 per 50 rounds. Hornady's retail price is $25 where I'm at. 30-06 costs me around $7 for quality ammo. The biggest cost and largest price swing is in the bullet used.

meplat · March 2, 2006, 09:58 AM

CAZ223 hit the nail dead center. If you get into reloading your are not going to save anything, because you will be shooting more.

Not a bad thing.

After all, there's all those primer/powder/bullet combinations out there to try, and you know you just gotta empty out all the loaded rounds you've already made in order to be able to use the brass to make new ones...pretty soon the "money saving venture" turns into a hobby of it's own that needs to be fed too.

Plus, there are going to be the inevitable times that someone gives you a couple of thousand rounds of once fired brass for a caliber you don't currently own, and of course THAT means a new firearm to buy...

Lordy, I hope I NEVER grow up...

PKSII · March 2, 2006, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meplat

pretty soon the "money saving venture" turns into a hobby of it's own that needs to be fed too.

Since there's no skiing here around San Antonio, I've been looking for something to keep myself occupied

So, after a month or so when I save up enough to get started, any recommendations on where I could pick up a rig? Nothing real fancy or high-dollar, but still reliable. I'd prefer a progressive, if only because that's what I grew up using for shotgun loads. Are used ones very common? In gun stores or pawn shops? Anything in particular to watch out for if buying a used one? Don't worry about buying a used one and just shell out the money for a new one?

Superhornet · March 3, 2006, 01:54 PM

I have been reloading since Sept. 18, 1949. Started out on a 45-70 and 30-40 Krag. I now load for 22 Hornet, 223, 22-250, 243, 270, 280, 264, 308, 30-06, 30-30, 45-70, 30M1 Carbine, 9mm, 10mm, 40S&w, 357, 44Mag, 44 Sp, 45 Auto, 38 Sp, 7mmMag, 270WSM, 300WSM. I set down last night and figured I have loaded over 400,000 rounds or more....Should break even around 2039...ho ho ho. I still shoot 800 rounds a month..

caz223 · March 3, 2006, 01:56 PM

caz223 · March 3, 2006, 01:58 PM

You reloaded at 10 years old?
Come on, that doesn't really count.

snowtigger · March 3, 2006, 02:23 PM

If you are going to get a progressive, get a Dillon.
You might as well get a new one. Used Dillons sell for almost as much. That's a good thing as you can recoup most of your money if you change your mind.
I don't know how to link, but you can Google "Blue Press" or dillonprecision to get to their site.
Look for the 550b, it's a dandy. I own two of them. I know, that sounds like some sort of obsessive disorder (as my wife says) but I like them.
If you are ever in the Scottsdale, Arizona area, it's worth a trip to Dillon's HQ. It is like Mecca for a Dillon owner. My wife lets me go in the store, but she makes me leave my wallet in the car.LOL
The people there are the most helpful I have ever met in any business. They are all reloaders, so they know what you are talking about. If you have a problem, they are the same on the phone. 99% of the time, they can talk you through it on the phone, and if something has broken (unlikely, but possible) the part is on the way immediately, no charge, forever, whether you bought it new or used.

This sounds like a commercial, but I am just telling you how they have treated me.

Dave R · March 3, 2006, 05:25 PM

I have represent the other side of the spectrum, and disagree with Caz.

Quote:

Rule 1: You don't reload to save money, you reload to shoot more.
If you wanted to save money, you wouldn't be shooting.

I shoot as much as I ever did, but not much more. I'm time constrained. And I really do save money. One reason is that I bought all my reloading gear used, and had some given to me. I'm under $150 total invested for the setup I use now. I even reload 9mm and save some money, and don't cast my bullets. I use (relatively) cheap Laser-cast bullets. I reload both 9mm and .45acp (and .380acp) for $3.61 per 50. That saes a little on 9mm, and a lot on .45acp. And I would never have bought that K-31 if I couldn't reload for it. I can shoot it now for the cost of .308 surplus (except I'm using premium hunting bullets!)

Quote:

Rule 2: Reloaders are better shooters.
Because they shoot more, and typically the ammo they make is better, they practice better. They also in time learn what is 'wrong' with the factory ammo they buy, and how to correct it.

No argument there! I have not found a 9mm load that is as accurate as my Laser-cast loads. And when you know the load is good, you know that any bigger groups are your problem, not the ammo. Helps you focus on improving.

Quote:

Rule 3: Reloading doesn't save you any money if you buy your supplies by the hundred in retail locally.
But when you figure out what bullets you like, find the best places to buy them cheap online, and buy them in quantities where you start to get price breaks, you can save big.

With centerfire rifle rounds, you can save big bucks even buying premium bullets by the hundred. I reload .308 (and 7.5 Swiss) for $4.77 per 20. Compare with $15-20 per box. However, Caz is spot on when he says the biggest cost of reloaded ammo is the cost of the bullet. Reduce your bullet cost and you'll save even more. It pays to buy in quantity and to shop around!

And yes, the ability to load reduced-recoil rounds is always welcome. I have a load for my K-31 that runs about the same ballistics as an M1 Carbine, and POI at 50yards is right where my hunting load is at 100 yards. Perfect for the kids or for plinking.

Rimrock · March 3, 2006, 05:45 PM

Quote:

I have been reloading since Sept. 18, 1949. Started out on a 45-70 and 30-40 Krag. I now load for 22 Hornet, 223, 22-250, 243, 270, 280, 264, 308, 30-06, 30-30, 45-70, 30M1 Carbine, 9mm, 10mm, 40S&w, 357, 44Mag, 44 Sp, 45 Auto, 38 Sp, 7mmMag, 270WSM, 300WSM. I set down last night and figured I have loaded over 400,000 rounds or more....Should break even around 2039...ho ho ho. I still shoot 800 rounds a month..

I reload .22-250 for varmints and targets. I like the fact that I can get exactly the load I want with the bullet primer and powder each and every time.
the fact that it's cheaper doesn't hurt either.

Rimrock

caz223 · March 4, 2006, 07:39 AM

A couple of questions for you Dave R.
Do you buy your bullets by the hundred locally? I doubt it.
I forgot about high $$$$ rifles they tend to be big bucks to buy bullets for, I only load .223 in rifles currently, I just can't afford grey poupon at this point.
Factory ammo is so pricey for those that you are scared to even shoot your handloads, because you know how much they should have cost to make.
When was the last time you bought factory ammo?
It may have been so long ago that your needs may have changed slightly. Shoot, I have calibers that I have never shot a factory loaded round yet, to this day. How can you be sure how many less you would shoot if you had to run all over town to spend more money on inferior ammo?

I suspect that we're on different sides of the same coin, and not really in disagreement.
I have trouble sometimes saying exactly what I mean, but I usually mean well. Usually.

l z rifle · March 4, 2006, 10:21 AM

I agree with snowtigger about the dillon press. The main reason i reload is to taylor the loads to each firearm. The load i worked up for her Glock, her Brownie hi power don't like. The smallest thing you do when reloading could effected accuracy, like changing primer brands. So get yourself a loading manual start low and work your way up, write everything down. Also a Chronograph is a good tool to have. Shoot Safe, Shoot often.

Wrangler5 · March 4, 2006, 12:30 PM

In addition to the cost savings, which as you can see from the other posts can run from small to large, tailoring your loads to the purpose at hand is a major advantage. You can buy Speer Gold Dot defensive loads in 20 round boxes, but I can also buy the Gold Dot bullets and make rounds that duplicate the commercial stuff for about 1/3 the cost. That lets me carry the expensive stuff (that I hope never to have to shoot) but practice a lot with duplicate reloads and not break the bank.

Another feature, which you hinted at: making up reduced power loads to suit a particular situation. I make 9mm Luger rounds that are just above the minimum power for the IDPA matches I compete in. I don't know if they help me get back on target quicker (I'm not that quick to begin with) but I do know that they're putting the least possible strain on my gun and (more important) wrist/forearm. If I do a 300 round practice session every week or two, wear and tear on ME becomes an important factor.

For another purpose, I recently made a series of loads to see how LIGHT a load I could make for my 9mm Makarov and still have it function reliably. The result was a round that has about the muzzle energy of a 22LR, but still works the slide every time. I can shoot those all day and never get a sore hand or wrist (plus, the brass pretty much just flops out at my feet, instead of being hurled 10 yards into the weeds and rocks.)

There are many threads on reloading equipment that you can check out. As others have suggested, if you are going to load in any quantity you will quickly want (need?) a progressive press of some sort. I personally started with a Lee Turret Press (25+ years ago - still have and use it) and think it is a pretty nice compromise between the output of a "full" progressive and a single stage press - it has the advantage of being able to set up your dies and powder measure once for a particular load, then just fill the powder hopper and go when you want to start loading, and have output that is at least 2-3x that of a single stage press. In addition, you can simply remove the turret spinning rod and use the press as a single stage, but still have your dies and powder measure always set up.

If (when) you decide to look at a "real" progressive press, and if cost is a factor in your decision, be sure to take into account the cost of adding additional calibers to whatever press you're considering. I've used a Lee Loadmaster since they came out 10+ years ago, and have turrets set up for 6 different pistol calibers. While I like some of the mechanical features of the Dillon line, the cost of a Dillon 650 (5 die positions, like the Lee) with case feeder (like the Lee) plus 6 turrets and powder measures (like on my Lee) would have been about 2.5x the price of the Lee equipment. So be sure to keep this aspect in mind when you decide to go press shopping.

February 27, 2006, 12:14 PM	#1
PKSII Junior Member Join Date: February 8, 2006 Location: San antonio, Tx Posts: 10	Pros/Cons of reloading I was talking to a guy at the range yesterday about reloading since I was thinking about starting reloading myself and I was wondering if I could get some opinions from you guys/gals here. (All the numbers I have here are rough estimates for .45 ACP, as that's what I'd be reloading right now). 1. Not looking at the cost of the reloader itself, is it really as economical as it's claimed to be? The only numbers I've found so far vary from ~$4 / 50 rounds to ~$7 / 50 rounds, which is about a quarter to half the price of a new box (~$15 / 50 rounds). I haven't found prices for supplies yet (haven't looked all that close really), but what do you normally spend on primers, powder, bullets, etc? Do you normally buy supplies at your local shop or online or through a catalog? How much do prices usually vary between those places? I used to reload shotgun shells and finally crunched the numbers one time (mostly out of curiosity), and found that the amount I was saving was almost non-existent. Granted, I wasn't being incredibly precise with the costs then, but I re-looked at it a couple times and it was still a fairly insignificant amount of savings... I can imagine the savings would be more significant for less common rifle rounds and such, but is there that big of a difference for something as common as .45 ACP? 2. Other benefits... The guy I talked to at the range said one of the things he liked most about reloading rounds himself was that he could make lighter loads for league (200 gr vs 230 gr) to reduce recoil and have quicker target acquisition between shots. Is the reduced recoil really that noticable? Even assuming costs end up the same in the long run, is the effect from using lighter loads worth the time and effort put into reloading yourself? 3. What other advantages/disadvantages are there? In short, why do you or don't you reload your own (though I'm assuming most of the people that read this do reload their own)? Curious, PK

February 27, 2006, 12:36 PM	#2
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	You save the most with rifle rounds, not so much with some handgun rounds. (9mm, etc) If you you pulldown powders (Like I do) then you can save even more, but the selection of surplus powder is limited. I use mainly range pickup brass for handgun with no problems. Here are some rough firgure for my 38 special. Brass = Free (Range pickup.) New is about $12 per 100 Primers = $18-19 per 1000 Bullets = $40-50 per 1000 Powder = Depends on how much you use. Usualy $20-30 Total for 1000 rounds 38 Special with range brass is about $80-100 The only real cost that can't be measured is your time, but I enjoy the reloading so it is not an issue for me. __________________ I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.

February 27, 2006, 01:19 PM	#6
caz223 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,429	A couple axioms and some hard and fast truths. Rule 1: You don't reload to save money, you reload to shoot more. If you wanted to save money, you wouldn't be shooting. Rule 2: Reloaders are better shooters. Because they shoot more, and typically the ammo they make is better, they practice better. They also in time learn what is 'wrong' with the factory ammo they buy, and how to correct it. Rule 3: Reloading doesn't save you any money if you buy your supplies by the hundred in retail locally. But when you figure out what bullets you like, find the best places to buy them cheap online, and buy them in quantities where you start to get price breaks, you can save big. Ok, now that you got all that, a couple facts: The better equipment you buy (The more money you spend.) The faster and less labor intensive your sessions will be (The more you will save.) I'll give you an example. If you load .45, for instance. I'll just use my .45 loads as an example. I load 200 grain XTP-HP bullets, CCI primers, and alliant unique powder on a dillon 550. That's not only a JHP, but it's a premium JHP. I use starline cases. Best you can buy IMHO. Unique is excellent in .45, and no one will argue with that. So, I use the best components. Powder, $18.00 a pound locally, 7 grains per load, 7000 grains per pound, that gives us $18.00 in powder per thousand. Primers, about the same, $18.00 per thousand. I buy bullets by the box from midwayUSA, and wait until they're on sale, but even so, they wind up costing me $12.00 a box plus shipping. We will estimate $14.00 per hundred, so $140 per thousand. 140+18+18= $176 per thousand for premium ammo. That's $8.80 a box, when the best I could do locally is $12.00 a box for generic crap. If I shot plated or lead I could easily cut the cost of ammo down to $100 per thousand. Even name brand JHPs would save me $50 per thousand. But the loads I use shoot like a laser, practice easy, load easy, and are good for varmints. You say "You forgot to add the cost of your time." OK. I load on a progressive, and I load pretty consistantly at 450 rounds an hour. That's nine boxes an hour. $12.00 a box minus 8.80= $3.20 a box times 9 boxes an hour. That's $28.80 an hour I'm 'making' when I make my own premium ammo at home. That's better than what I can buy generic crap for. And I could save a LOT more money on component selection and buy bigger. Truth be told, I don't really save money on .45, I just shoot better stuff than I could afford. Now, 10mm, .41 mag, .44 mag, .357 mag, 357SIG, etc, etc THOSE I save money on. I load 9mm at a 'loss' but shoot waaaaayyyyy better stuff than I could justify buying when the cheap stuff is $6.00 a box locally at wal-mart. __________________ I'm not just a gun. I'm YOUR gun. (Hold me.)

February 27, 2006, 01:32 PM	#7
caz223 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,429	The same study on .41 mag and the same estimates. Powder, blue dot, 13.5 grains per load. 500 loads per pound, powder runs $15 a pound from powder valley. That $30/1000 for powder. $20/1000 for primers. (CCI magnum from powder valley, paying for mazmat and all that.) And the same XTP-HP bullets from midway at $12.00 a box, except I bought 'em in bulk at LSB (Blem, but I sure can't see any blems.) $90 per thousand. Figure $100/1000 That's still $150 per thousand. $7.50 per box. This is still premium ammo. Locally, they are at VERY LEAST $25 per box of 50. I'm saving $17.50 ber box. Times 9 boxes an hour. That's $157.50 an hour. NOW I'm saving money. *EDIT* I'm being VERY conservative, I'm prolly SAVING $25 a box of 50. __________________ I'm not just a gun. I'm YOUR gun. (Hold me.) Last edited by caz223; February 27, 2006 at 05:06 PM.

February 28, 2006, 02:43 PM	#12
jsflagstad Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Up Nort Posts: 419	40 S&W For $1.50 per box!!! I load my 40S&W for about $1.50 per box. I use range brass and cast my own bullets from wheel weights. I got set up casting for about $60 (Lee Production Pot $40 and Lee Mold $17) and I cast "tumble lube" bullets that don't require sizing and they are accurate as all get out. Here is my process: Melt down wheel weights skim off junk from top of pot, add 10% chilled lead shot (has arsenic that helps in the hardening process), flux and skim again, as soon as the molten lead is ready start molding and demold the first dozen or so bullets into a dry container until the mold heats up and starts making better quailty bullets, when I start getting good bullets (warmed mold) I then start demolding them into a gallon pail 1/2 full of ice water for hardening. After I have molded 200 or so, I pull them out of the ice water and dry them off, then put them in my vibratory tumbler for a couple of hours to break the sharp edges and flash off (this step not absolutely necessary), For tumble lubing, I use Lee Liquid Ilox thinned down with mineral spirits and I tumble them in an old peanut butter jar. Don't be afraid to cast your own as that is where I found a large savings when it came to handgun rounds. JSF

February 27, 2006, 12:42 PM	#3
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	I can reload 45 acp's for 7 dollars a box of 50 with all virgin componants and premium jacketed bullets. I reload range ammo in 45acp for 1.50 a box of 50. Used brass, cast lead bullets. Premium (virgin) 44 mags for 10 bucks a box. Range/hunting 44 mags for 4 dollars a box. You'll spend more money for the outlay of componants because you have to buy bulk but you get more bang for your buck with the added benefit of being able to tailor your ammo to specific needs and being able to make ammo that is not available to the open market. It's worth it.

February 27, 2006, 01:15 PM	#4
rnovi Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2005 Location: So. Cal. Posts: 401	PKS: "I can imagine the savings would be more significant for less common rifle rounds and such, but is there that big of a difference for something as common as .45 ACP?" Oh YES! Very much so! I reload around 8k of .45acp a year and another 5k of .38 specials. (Plus assorted .357's, 9mm, and .350RemMag). To your direct questions: 1. Is reloading economical? Yep, on all fronts. Brass: I buy my own brass, but reload it some 20 times or so before it gets discarted. So brass cost is virtually nil. I do NOT like picking up range brass. On several occassions I have picked up a .45 GAP or a small primer Winchester brass and it is a pain to make sure I've sorted it out. However, I do NOT shoot auto's anymore - I just hate to chase my brass anymore and love my 625JM. Bullets: Cast Lead: $20 for 500 bullets or $0.04 each. If you cast your own from discarded wheelweights, it may as well be free. Primers: $21 for 1000 or $0.021 each. Powder: $17 for 7000 grains of TiteGroup: roughly $0.01 per round. Total cost per bullet: $0.07 per bullet. Or, $3.50 per box of 50 rounds. 2. I buy my components from a local shop. I don't reload enough pistol to justify 8# jugs of powder or the like...yet. If you choose to go with a premium bullet from Speer or Hornady, you will pay more. Around $0.15 per bullet or so. Still, That comes to around $0.18 per shot, or $9.00 a box. Comparative priced to cheap factory ammo, but your handloads should be much more accurate. Way back when I bought it, my Hornady ProJector press (and full setup) cost around $200. It paid for itself within two months.

February 27, 2006, 01:18 PM	#5
auto45 Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2002 Posts: 427	It's economical in 45 to reload, but it depends on on how much you shoot IMO. Prices vary, but you can buy low end ACP for around $8.70-$11.00 depending on steel cased, deals, freight, etc, etc. You can also buy "reloaded" ammo in that price range I believe. If you are going to spend $15.00 for a box, start reloading now. You can load for around $6.00 on "average", just to keep it simple. Let's say you save $3.00 per box of 50 and $30.00 per case of 500. Shoot only a 1000 rounds a year and that's a savings of $60. Shoot 5,000...save $300, shoot 10,000...save $600 and so on. I think those numbers are conservative and you save each year...think long term. In my "estimations" I've saved, minus the cost of equipment, around $4700 in my 45 "reloading life". 12 gauge shotshell reloading, which I still do, is not particulary cost effective now because all the "promo" shells available at cheap prices. I think that's going to change as lead prices catch up to them, but time will tell.

February 27, 2006, 01:46 PM	#8
Mr_Magoo Member Join Date: January 11, 2001 Posts: 46	I got into reloading because I had bought 1000 rounds of .357 ammo that had problems. Primers set too deep causing missfires, etc. I thought I could do better. I tore down the 900 or so I had left and discovered one of them did not even have a flash hole! I still wonder what would have happened if I had shot that one . . . Everything I load is as good as I can make it. I am anal on how I prep components. All primer pockets uniformed, all flash holes are reamed, Cases are sized-trimmed-deburred-polished-and treated to all the TLC my ex never deserved . . . I use a dedicated benchtop APC primer press set to correct depth, then use a Rockchucker to load one step at a time. Bottom line is that my general welfare and safety is priceless. I only shoot loads I have made because I trust myself to do it right. A side benifit is reloading is relaxing. I can't really put a price on that, but it is a heck of a lot cheaper that seeing a shrink or a hooker. Nothin' like prepping brass while singin' to the oldies.

February 27, 2006, 06:39 PM	#10
dakotashooter2 Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2005 Posts: 498	You will never safe that much on the low end loads but you will save a lot when you start loading high end stuff. A good example is the "premium" rifle ammunition. The only added cost a reloader has over his standard load is the price of a premium bullet while the factorys will increase the price beyond the extra cost of the premium bullet even though the cost of the other components remains the same. Game loads for the shotgun are the same. The added cost for the extra shot and powder generally amounts to less than a couple pennies per load but the factories will double or triple the cost of a box (over target loads) which probably only cost them and extra 50 cents to make.

February 28, 2006, 10:26 AM	#11
PKSII Junior Member Join Date: February 8, 2006 Location: San antonio, Tx Posts: 10	How many people here cast their own bullets? How big of a process is that? I'm pretty sure I'm not going to do that anytime soon, but I'd be interested to hear what everyone thinks of it.

February 28, 2006, 03:58 PM	#13
skeet47 Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Posts: 50	Reloading costs As a brass wholesaler my brass is free.And I recycle range lead to a caster that gives me bullets in return,so my costs are very low.if you have someone in your group or club with a class 06 FFL you can buy powder for around $11 per lb.And we get primers for $11 -12 per thousand in bulk.You have to buy larger quantities but if you get a few guys together it's well worth it.

March 1, 2006, 07:26 AM	#14
Dogjaw Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2001 Location: S.W. Michigan Posts: 560	rnovi hit it on the head, and saved me a lot of typing. I'll just add that I reload Hornady 158 gr. XTP in .357 mag for $7 per 50 rounds. Hornady's retail price is $25 where I'm at. 30-06 costs me around $7 for quality ammo. The biggest cost and largest price swing is in the bullet used.

March 2, 2006, 09:58 AM	#15
meplat Member Join Date: February 28, 2006 Posts: 34	CAZ223 hit the nail dead center. If you get into reloading your are not going to save anything, because you will be shooting more. Not a bad thing. After all, there's all those primer/powder/bullet combinations out there to try, and you know you just gotta empty out all the loaded rounds you've already made in order to be able to use the brass to make new ones...pretty soon the "money saving venture" turns into a hobby of it's own that needs to be fed too. Plus, there are going to be the inevitable times that someone gives you a couple of thousand rounds of once fired brass for a caliber you don't currently own, and of course THAT means a new firearm to buy... Lordy, I hope I NEVER grow up...

March 3, 2006, 01:54 PM	#17
Superhornet Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2005 Location: florida Posts: 292	I have been reloading since Sept. 18, 1949. Started out on a 45-70 and 30-40 Krag. I now load for 22 Hornet, 223, 22-250, 243, 270, 280, 264, 308, 30-06, 30-30, 45-70, 30M1 Carbine, 9mm, 10mm, 40S&w, 357, 44Mag, 44 Sp, 45 Auto, 38 Sp, 7mmMag, 270WSM, 300WSM. I set down last night and figured I have loaded over 400,000 rounds or more....Should break even around 2039...ho ho ho. I still shoot 800 rounds a month..

March 3, 2006, 01:56 PM	#18
caz223 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,429	__________________ I'm not just a gun. I'm YOUR gun. (Hold me.)

March 3, 2006, 01:58 PM	#19
caz223 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,429	You reloaded at 10 years old? Come on, that doesn't really count. __________________ I'm not just a gun. I'm YOUR gun. (Hold me.)

March 3, 2006, 02:23 PM	#20
snowtigger Junior Member Join Date: July 13, 2005 Posts: 3	If you are going to get a progressive, get a Dillon. You might as well get a new one. Used Dillons sell for almost as much. That's a good thing as you can recoup most of your money if you change your mind. I don't know how to link, but you can Google "Blue Press" or dillonprecision to get to their site. Look for the 550b, it's a dandy. I own two of them. I know, that sounds like some sort of obsessive disorder (as my wife says) but I like them. If you are ever in the Scottsdale, Arizona area, it's worth a trip to Dillon's HQ. It is like Mecca for a Dillon owner. My wife lets me go in the store, but she makes me leave my wallet in the car.LOL The people there are the most helpful I have ever met in any business. They are all reloaders, so they know what you are talking about. If you have a problem, they are the same on the phone. 99% of the time, they can talk you through it on the phone, and if something has broken (unlikely, but possible) the part is on the way immediately, no charge, forever, whether you bought it new or used. This sounds like a commercial, but I am just telling you how they have treated me.

March 4, 2006, 07:39 AM	#23
caz223 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,429	A couple of questions for you Dave R. Do you buy your bullets by the hundred locally? I doubt it. I forgot about high $$$$ rifles they tend to be big bucks to buy bullets for, I only load .223 in rifles currently, I just can't afford grey poupon at this point. Factory ammo is so pricey for those that you are scared to even shoot your handloads, because you know how much they should have cost to make. When was the last time you bought factory ammo? It may have been so long ago that your needs may have changed slightly. Shoot, I have calibers that I have never shot a factory loaded round yet, to this day. How can you be sure how many less you would shoot if you had to run all over town to spend more money on inferior ammo? I suspect that we're on different sides of the same coin, and not really in disagreement. I have trouble sometimes saying exactly what I mean, but I usually mean well. Usually. __________________ I'm not just a gun. I'm YOUR gun. (Hold me.)

March 4, 2006, 10:21 AM	#24
l z rifle Junior Member Join Date: February 19, 2006 Location: sw mo Posts: 8	I agree with snowtigger about the dillon press. The main reason i reload is to taylor the loads to each firearm. The load i worked up for her Glock, her Brownie hi power don't like. The smallest thing you do when reloading could effected accuracy, like changing primer brands. So get yourself a loading manual start low and work your way up, write everything down. Also a Chronograph is a good tool to have. Shoot Safe, Shoot often.

March 4, 2006, 12:30 PM	#25
Wrangler5 Senior Member Join Date: September 18, 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 326	In addition to the cost savings, which as you can see from the other posts can run from small to large, tailoring your loads to the purpose at hand is a major advantage. You can buy Speer Gold Dot defensive loads in 20 round boxes, but I can also buy the Gold Dot bullets and make rounds that duplicate the commercial stuff for about 1/3 the cost. That lets me carry the expensive stuff (that I hope never to have to shoot) but practice a lot with duplicate reloads and not break the bank. Another feature, which you hinted at: making up reduced power loads to suit a particular situation. I make 9mm Luger rounds that are just above the minimum power for the IDPA matches I compete in. I don't know if they help me get back on target quicker (I'm not that quick to begin with) but I do know that they're putting the least possible strain on my gun and (more important) wrist/forearm. If I do a 300 round practice session every week or two, wear and tear on ME becomes an important factor. For another purpose, I recently made a series of loads to see how LIGHT a load I could make for my 9mm Makarov and still have it function reliably. The result was a round that has about the muzzle energy of a 22LR, but still works the slide every time. I can shoot those all day and never get a sore hand or wrist (plus, the brass pretty much just flops out at my feet, instead of being hurled 10 yards into the weeds and rocks.) There are many threads on reloading equipment that you can check out. As others have suggested, if you are going to load in any quantity you will quickly want (need?) a progressive press of some sort. I personally started with a Lee Turret Press (25+ years ago - still have and use it) and think it is a pretty nice compromise between the output of a "full" progressive and a single stage press - it has the advantage of being able to set up your dies and powder measure once for a particular load, then just fill the powder hopper and go when you want to start loading, and have output that is at least 2-3x that of a single stage press. In addition, you can simply remove the turret spinning rod and use the press as a single stage, but still have your dies and powder measure always set up. If (when) you decide to look at a "real" progressive press, and if cost is a factor in your decision, be sure to take into account the cost of adding additional calibers to whatever press you're considering. I've used a Lee Loadmaster since they came out 10+ years ago, and have turrets set up for 6 different pistol calibers. While I like some of the mechanical features of the Dillon line, the cost of a Dillon 650 (5 die positions, like the Lee) with case feeder (like the Lee) plus 6 turrets and powder measures (like on my Lee) would have been about 2.5x the price of the Lee equipment. So be sure to keep this aspect in mind when you decide to go press shopping.