chain fires

[timothy75]

How do chain fires occur regarding caps? Does the recoil knock them off and back? How does this phenominom work?

[Nortonics]

Actually chain fires are ignited at the opposite end from where you're thinking - the offending spark makes it's way in past the lead slug of an adjoining cylinder. That is one of the biggest reasons for using a lubed patch between the slug and powder.

And let me tell ya, when you experience one you'll know it! Nothing like two loads going off at close to the exact same time, with one of 'em turning to shrapnel instantaneously. Thing that always amazed me is I've never seen this damage a gun - you'd think the cylinder frame would take a certain amount of damage having a projectile hit it like that - maybe I've been lucky...

[Remington kid]

As for what causes a chain fire or what end of the cylinder it originates no one knows. This has been a controversy for years.
When Colt sold there revolvers the instructions were as follows or close to it:
Load camber with powder leaving enough room for the ball, compress ball on powder and cap the cone(nipple). It also discouraged people from using wad or fillers.
Keeping this in mind I just did a test using a new .36 , 1851 Colt/Navy replica and loaded and shot as follows. No wad, no pill, no grease over ball and the chamber was filled allowing enough room for the ball. In this revolver that was 25 gr. of Pyrodex P and a .380 casted ball compressed on top.
After firing over 1000 rounds and in fact it is now closer to 1200 we did not have one chain fire, cleaning was not any harder and we could not tell any difference in the superb accuracy we got with this revolver.
Mec (Mike Cumpston) has tried this also using his Navy 60 I believe and he has found the same results as I have , no chain fires and fouling is no worse and clean up just as easy.
In no way am I saying that it can't happen but I feel you will minimize that by making sure you have a very tight fitting ball or Conical and tight fitting caps.
It's nice not to have to mess with the grease all over your holster and hands.
I do still grease the internals and the cylinder pin and hand slot.
Here is a link to more info on our testing.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=202214

[Low Key]

RK is right, there is a big difference of opinion about chainfires. Perhaps is was more of a problem in the 1850's-1870's when quality control wasn't what it is today and out of round chambers were more prevalent. Personally I think the cause is at the back of the cylinder, a loose cap falls off an adjacent nipple and allows a straight path to the main charge and then you get a two boomer and crap your pants!

I prefer to err on the side of safety here so I use a dry wad over the powder and then a lube pill over that, (keeps everything lubed up and running smooth and provides a safety net) and I also make SURE to use the proper size caps. If you have to pinch them, they are too big and could slip off under recoil. If you don't use a wad or lube pill, you most likely are safe doing that and I wouldn't hesitate to shoot that way as long as I have the proper caps for my gun.

[4V50 Gary]

One of the members at TheMuzzleLoadingForum held a torch across the mouth of his cylinders. Not a single ignition. I believe that a chain fire occurs when the percussion caps move under recoil and in moving forward, hit the nipple hard enough such that they ignite.

[mfree]

Could even end up as overly sensitive caps lighting off under vibration.

[Nortonics]

Just a quick continuance from my previous post. I have in fact experienced chain fires - on two separate occasions. Actually once when I was shooting, and the other time it was my partner right next to me. I can't recall his pistol make and model but one thing I do recall about it was it was a smooth bore gun - I remembered that because the accuracy just sucked and combined with that chain fire I witnessed I remember thinking that gun was the biggest POS. My gun is an Uberti SS 1858 Remington.

In both cases wads and/or lube was not used and in both cases the cap on the chain fired cylinder was still in place on the nipple. In those two cases I can pretty much guarantee the chain started at the bore end of the cylinder. In the case of my gun I attributed the extra potential that created that issue came from slightly undersized balls that did not skim into the cylinders quite as tight as would be considered optimum. In other words, I was asking for it, and got it! Now I take the time to add a wonder wad while using a proper sized ball.

[mec]

Allen Pepperboxes had a habit of ripping off shots like a syncopated machinegun. The cause there was probably the enclosed breach surrounding the nipples and affording a raceway for the flames to wash over nipples that may be capped and may have shed the caps. Very likely ALL of the explainations for chain fires are correct.

A guy on the muzzle loading board took his new LeMat out and fired it without wad or grease. Lemats are tightly bored/chambered and even .4541 balls usually seal them just fine. He got a chain fire from whatever cause and the eleven o'clock chamber carried off his ejector assembly. Better to be holding a Colt or Remington style if a chainfire happens.

[Low Key]

In those two cases I can pretty much guarantee the chain started at the bore end of the cylinder. In the case of my gun I attributed the extra potential that created that issue came from slightly undersized balls that did not skim into the cylinders quite as tight as would be considered optimum. In other words, I was asking for it, and got it!

Yep, that would be the culprit!

Very likely ALL of the explainations for chain fires are correct.

I have to agree, and also would like to add that if you keep your risks to a minimum (use the right size balls, wads, or lube and correctly fitting caps) you should never have to experience a chain fire.

[Remington kid]

Gary and Mfree make a good point or at least a good idea as to what may be causing it but who knows! You would think that after all these years someone could figure it out.I know I haven't!
I think it was Mec who mentioned the idea on another thread that it could also be a possibility that sloppy loading could be causing problems such as spilling powder into the chamber that already has a ball seated and that powder, igniting the powder under a loose ball.

[Wayner]

I was playing with a Colt revolver and had it apart. I thought about all the people that believe chainfires don't come from the front of the cylinder. I was putting balls in a problem barrel and checking for tight spots sos I figured I may as well put a ball in the cylinder and check for light coming thru. The first ball in the first chamber I checked showed as real nice beam of light coming thru when I looked at the window with it. I checked the ball real good and found a tiny defect(little squiggly groove) that just happened to get against the chamber wall and make for a little space. I didn't keep on checking after that first ball. I had my answer. Chainfires come from both ends of the cylinder. I get tired of greasy stuff over the balls cuz it blows off anyhow sos I thunk up "lube pills". Wax wads. Like are used in some blackpowder cartridges. They are easy,control fouling well,aren't messy, help accuracy and stop chain fires from the front ect. ect. The lube pills don't have to be put over the powder either. They can go over the ball like greasy stuff. The difference is the wax-lube stays there after the other chambers fire, unlike greasy stuff. Anywhoooo, I cringe when I read people testing with no assurance against chain fire from the front. It's only a matter of time before one happens. It doesn't take a huge space between the chamber wall and the ball to let sparks and hot gas that are under pressure to get to some powder. I'll admit that at times I shoot a little with no lube of any kind on the front of the cylinder chambers. I test for accuracy comparing lubed chambers to unlubed chambers. What amazes me are the reports about accuracy not dropping off when using no lube. My barrels get so fouled after a short time when they are not lubed that the guns shoot worse than smooth bores. The fouling can build to the point that the riflings are gone in the barrels. In my opinion even when a cylinder is cleaned after every six shoots the accuracy is worse than when the chambers are lubed. When cleaning after every cylinder fired there seem to always be flyers out of the six shots. They can come the second shot or the fourth or any combination. Not just progressively worse accuracy with each shot. The First may be good and then a flyer can happen the second shoot and then the next three may be good and then the last a flyer. Sometimes the last shot fired is the most accurate one. There's no consistancy when that fouling is concerned. Anywhooo, using lube to safeguard against chainfires has other benifits too. Accuracy is one. Peace of mind is one too.

[sundance44s]

I`ve got a chainfire question , i`ve tryed to find something on it happening to someone shooting a remington pistol .. i can`t find a thing on them ..as far as chain fires .. maybe it hasn`t ever happened , or maybe its rare ..

[4V50 Gary]

Somewhere out there is a Federal Grant just begging to be pegged for this invaluable research.

[Remington kid]

Gary, I tried to get that grant but I'm still waiting to hear from them.Maybe my checks in the mail , Mike

[sundance44s]

I`ve tryed myself to find an account where a remmie has chainfired .. nothing there .. i`d like to hear if its happened to anyone , or anyone knows of it happening to some one with a remmie .