Amatuer needs Input on .308 Semi-Auto reloading!

[Jamie Young]

I need some input on .308 reloading. I still reload on a single stage but I'm looking for precision shooting and not looking to reload hundreds of rounds at a time. I'm pretty much trying to avoid FMJ bullets and only looking for tactical ammo. What are your Recipes? I pretty much stick with RCBS dies and I'm going to get a set next week. Do I want a Factory Crimping die for .308? Do I need one? I have IMR 3031 and IMR 4064 in the basement and ready to reload as soon as I order some bullets.
Tell me your best?

[Zak Smith]

You might also want to try IMR 4895 and WIN 748. 4895 is the quintessential .308 powder, and 748 is a bit more modern and meters very consistently.

This old thread http://www.yarchive.net/gun/ammo/308_loads.html lists some match-proven combinations, for both service rifles and bolt rifles. Some things to note there include things like:
. which particular brass to use
. which primers are accurate
. some notes on seating depth

I personally use 45-46 gr of Win748 under a 150gr SP.

-z

[Pampers]

You don't crimp rifle bullets! If the case neck won't hold the bullet firmly, the expander plug needs to be replaced or reduced in size. The ideal solution is to use Redding "Type S" full length dies with replaceable necksizing bushings and NO expander plug.

Now, since you specifically asked about semi-autos, here's what I've been doing for the last 20 or so years.

DO NOT "crush" the shell-holder when you resize! If you DO "crush" the shell holder, I can guarentee case head seperation on the first or second reload! Take a fired case and smoke the neck/shoulder area with a candle. Lube the case. With the sizing die backed WAY OUT, size the case. Screw the die in a little more. Repeat until the die just kisses the shoulder. Now, try the case in your rifle chamber. Hopefully, the bolt will NOT go into battery. If it does, you've gone to far! If it does not, screw the die down JUST A LITLE and try again. When your bolt will JUST close, seat a bullet in an unprimed, empty case, and try letting it feed from the magazine into the chamber. Assuming this works, you are ready to load a mag full of live rounds. If they cycle through the gun, you're good to go.

The above procedure is to prevent excess headspace which WILL cause short case life and rapid head seperation!

Now, one other heresy, DO NOT be anal about removing the lube from the case! Just wipe off the excess. This allows the case to move in the chamber and not grip the chamber and stretch excessively. Yes, I know, you'll hear that this allows excess "Bolt thrust" on the locking lugs, and the case MUST "grip" the chamber walls to prevent overstressing the locking lugs. WELL LISTEN UP BUNKY, if you're relying on that little, thin bit of brass to keep from blowing the bolt back into your face, you're WAY OVERLOADED!

With this procedure, I manage 10 to 12 reloads of .308/7.62 in my National Match M14. My usual mode of case failure is now a split neck, NOT a head seperation. Imminant case head seperation can be detected by using an old dental pick (or a tool fashioned out of a paper clip with a small 90 degree bend on the end) and feeling for a slight groove around the inside of the case, just above the head.

Another thing to consider, stick to the medium burning powders. Too slow a powder will result excessive port pressure and will (litterally) rip the case head, or at least the rim, off on the first reload.


Yr. Obt. Svnt.

[Jamie Young]

SmithZ are you shooting out of an FAL or M1A/M14 with a 150gr sp?
Is that all Ball Powder your suggesting?
From what I've been reading so far (I may be wrong) is the 1-11 twist is going to do better with bullets in the 168-175gr range. What are your thoughts on that?
I'm going for 1MOA with my FAL.
Pampers I AM GOING TO CRIMP but should I get Something like a Lee Factory Crimp for .308. I already have them for my 45ACP and my 223 but I wasn't sure if something like that is necessary for larger calibers.

[Pampers]

Any crimp on a bottle neck rifle cartrige is unnecessary. Where factory rounds are crimped, and Federal Gold Match .308 rounds most definately ARE NOT, they are crimped into a canalure. With the exception of 147 gr FMJ military bullets, I know of no .308 match bullet (or premium hunting bullet for that matter) which has a canalure. When you crimp into a bullet without a canalure, you deform the jacket and risk ruining a perfectly good round. I know of no highpower or benchrest competator who crimps his loads. Please bear in mind that the load/rifle combos of top Highpower shooters routinely group .250", and to win in benchrest, your load/rifle package MUST be able to put all of its bullets into a hole less than .100".

Precision Shooting magazine tested the Lee Factory Crimp when it came out. They tested loads which were known to group less than 1/4 minute (>.250") and applied a "Factory Crimp" to them. Without exception, the "Factory Crimped" rounds grouped significantly less well. Their conclusion, the "Factory Crimp" was the best way to ruin an otherwise accurate load.

If your cases do not have enough neck tension to prevent bullet setback, either get the Redding Type S dies, or polish down the expander plug a few thousandths, or have a machinist do it for you. For best accuracy, FORGET THE CRIMP!


Yr. Obt. Svnt.

[Jamie Young]

I have the remnant of 147gr Chilean ammo laying around and its got a real funky crimp on it. What is that kind of crimping called? Its like squared press marks.

[George Helser]

SodaPop,

I like WW748 for .308 & .223. It meters well, gives high velocity and very low flash at night.

In .308, the relatively new Nosler 180 gr Ballistic Tip is very interesting for its ballistic coefficient. (Superior to lighter bullets over 100 yds.)

I am shooting the Nosler 180 gr BT at 2400 fps in my HK rifle using 42 gr of WW748 with an O.L. of just under 2.800”

Good luck!

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona

[Zak Smith]

SodaPop, I am shooting that load I mentioned out of my FAL. Be aware not to use slower powders than 4064, they may damage the operating rod in the M14/M1A.

Win748 is a ball powder which is good for .308 and meters well. 4895 is an stick-type powder.

I believe 1:11 is the twist used in competition M14/M1A's.

[Archie]

I shoot an M1 Garand in .308 Win. I full length resize, use 38 to 40 grains of IMR 4895 over 168 grain HPBT bullets. Unlike Brother Pampers, I crimp with Lee Factory Crimp dies.

This load groups well. Under 3" at 100 yards. I can't shoot better than that.

[Pampers]

The most commonly used twist rate for competition in either .30-06, or .308/7.62 is 1:10 for use with 168 gr. BTHP Sierra Matchkings. I understand that .308/7.62 rifles used for the Palma Match and the 155 gr VLD Palma bullet use 1:12.

Yr. Obt. Svnt.

[Wild Romanian]

Simple advice that works.
Load 40.5 grains of 4895 behind 168 grain Sierra bullet. Use military cases, they are much stronger and head seperations are far less likely.
Here is how to load the case so it will fit and function in more than one of your .308 rifles and not cause jamming. Do not bother screwing around setting the shoulder back just so because the cases will only work in one rifle and also as the chamber gets dirty you will probably experience jams. Take your press and crush lightly the shell holder against the bottom of the die. Then put in a empty case run the case up into the die and use a flashlight to see if the case is all the way up in the die and the shell holder is bearing against the bottom of the die. It will probably not be bearing against the die. You will see a little bit of the bottom of the case sticking out of the die. Lower the ram and turn the die down a little more. Run the case back up into the die again and repeat the procedure until you get the case all the way up inside of the die. The reason that you must do this is most presses have slop in them and what you are doing is you are taking the slop out of the press so you can shove the case all the way into the die to set the shoulder back. Then you must take a simple stepped head space gauge as sold by Forrester and check to see that you have not sized the case beyond mininum headspace but just right on at minimum headspace. The military case will easily give you 6 or 7 reloads with no problem. All this may sound complicated but it is very simple once you have done it. The advantage of doing it this way is that your gun will never jam up and the ammo will fire out of any semi-auto .308. The accuracy is also superb, do no let anyone tell you otherwise. I have been doing it this way for 20 years and it has enabled me to shoot the ammo in all of my guns both bolt and semi-auto with no jams and excellent accuracy. W.R.

[MIKE14]

44.2 grains of WW748 with a 147 gr FMJ shoots well in my FAL. My M1A at 100 yards likes 46.1 grains of IMR 4064 with a sierra 155gr Palma HPBT MK in a Black Hills Match case fired by a Federal 210M primer. BL-C(2) make a good 147gr load. Varget performs well in .223 and .308 both IMR 4895 is a good 168gr .308 powder My .02 worth

[Charmedlyfe]

Make sure your primer is properly seated, and not riding high.

[Jamie Young]

Is anyone getting Sub MOA with 150gr or lighter bullet loads?

[Jamie Young]

Old thread that I'd like to BTT

[Quantrill]

Jamie,
I loaded .308 in the past (when I had one). An item that I have not seen mentioned are the use of "small base " dies. I would recomend them if the cartridges are to be used in a semi-auto. I went through mucho trouble with 30-06 in this regard. Bill

[kidcoltoutlaw]

to make sure the die is set right.in a bolt gun it is not big deal it will cam shut if it is just close. on a semi it will not.i have had a pump fire out of battery it was not fun. so now i use a wilson case gauge for pump and semi rifles,thanks,keith

[steelbuster]

I liked everything Pampers had to say with one exception. I would have to agree with Wild Romanian that in the interest of reliability, the cases for semiauto's should be full length sized. As long as you are going to by a new die I would suggest RCBS's "X DIe" . I have found these dies to give the same case life as neck sizing only....they are GREAT and very simple to use! See them here: http://www.rcbs.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=4&s2=8&s3=69

[Jamie Young]

I ordered new 308 small base dies and 155gr Palma bullets just to try them out. I'd much rather stick close to the 147gr military weight as possible. I've shot 168gr and 175gr but I don't want to push my FAL too hard.

Picked up a ZEISS 6.5x20x50 and it looks great on my FAL.

Time to experiment.

[Jamie Young]

Just set up the press for the 308 small base dies and I have a problem. The cases don't want to resize all the way in the small base dies but the full length dies work fine?

I just got done soaking the die in penetrating oil because the first round got stuck.

Am I missing something?

Its LC once fired 308 brass BTW.

[kidcoltoutlaw]

and may have been fired in an over sized chamber.i like imperial sizing die wax it makes the tuffest job easy,thanks,keith

[Jamie Young]

Where can I get it?

I'm using Dillon spray bottle stuff and this is pretty tough. I already ripped my press off the bench trying to get a case out.

[tex_n_cal]

Lots of good advice above.

I will add that you MUST have a tight bullet fit in an autoloader, regardless of whether it's a rifle or pistol. Bullet Setback in feeding = high pressure.

One other trick I use is to tumble cases after resizing, to ensure that all resizing lube is removed from the inside of the case neck. You must also check to make sure that no tumbler media is stuck in the primer flash hole, if you take this step.

[Gewehr98]

My AK-47 variant clued me in on that procedure when I started handloading for it. So they ALL get a gentle crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp die. Unless one has the original military sealant/adhesive as found in issue ammo...

Ok, this is from a long ways away from my computer at home, but via email, my wife says my 155gr Sierra Palma load for both my M14NM and 700PSS is 41.5gr of IMR4895, using Lapua 7.62x51 headstamped brass (NATO, military-thickness stuff), on top of a Federal 210 Match primer. This would make a nice starting load if you used commercial brass of thinner wall construction. If you use Lake City or other military brass, back off a half-grain or so and work your way up carefully, watching pressure signs, etc.

[Jamie Young]

Thanks for the info fellas.