What should I choose and why?

[deepforest27]

I'm in a bind here as to what I should choose. I live in an area that precludes shots of more than 200 yds. period. I'm looking at several longuns for a number of reasons. 1)Marlin Camp Carbine in .45ACP for general use. 2)Marlin or Win. levergun in .30-30 or .44. My question is this. What can I use the Camp Carbine for? They look and handle very well at the store, so I'm pleased as far as quality is concerned. With the .30-30 or .44, I plan on perhaps using this as a deer/bear/occaisional varmint rifle for close in work. What should I choose and why? Opinions are greatly appreciated.

[Hueco]

I am not a hunter, but I personally would get a .223 It would be a bit light on a bear, yes. But on deer and varmints I think it would do the trick well. .223 is a bit longer range than you need, but at the range you are shooting at it will translate into higher velocities. On deer and bear I think the important thing is penetration. If you really want to be suave, look at a .17 remington. That little puppy goes over 4000 fps and can do major damage to a deer. I have heard of elk being taken with one shot. But both of these rounds leave you feeling a bit underpowered for a bear. My recommendation is to go with a semi-auto .17 or .223 and if you get to a bear -- shoot more rounds into him...FAST. Take it easy!

Hueco

[Robert the41MagFan]

For the three hundred dollars or so, the 30/30 from either Winchester or Marlin provide the absolute best value in all round center fire rifles. It does just about everything well from hunting big game, camp protection, varmints or just plain old fun.

Robert

[Art Eatman]

If you're an excellent shot and make perfect hits, a .223 might be considered a deer cartridge. But never will you be in my deer camp. I won't allow what I consider to be a varmint cartridge to be used on "my" deer. And a .223 is a good way to wound and aggravate a bear. It is a lousy way to try to kill one.

I base all this on my hunting philosophy of using enough gun to put an animal down as quickly and as humanely as possible. Wounding and tracking is at best a partial failure.

The Camp Carbine concept was dreamed up in order to sell more guns to people with more than enough money and not enough toys.

For what you have described, and in the realm of guns you have mentioned, the Marlin in .30-30 would work well. Its side-ejection makes the use of a scope very easy, should you prefer a scope over iron sights.

Either the 150-grain or the 170-grain bullet would work well on the "average" whitetail; I'm assuming probable body-weights under 200 pounds. The 170-grain bullet would be my preference, and I would limit myself to shots inside 100 yards.

Since most varmint shots are one-shot efforts only, you could save your brass and have a handloader-friend load 110-grain bullets. You could load these singly (directly into the chamber) so there would be no danger of pointed bullets rupturing the next primer in line in the tube magazine, from recoil.

FWIW, Art

[Kingcreek]

Gee, why not a slide-action (or auto) remington in .243 or .308 cal. with or without a low power scope.(1.5-4X?)
200 yards is possible with an ironsighted, .30 levergun, but it's a bit of a stretch in all but the more capable hands.
.308 class seems a lot more capable for varmints to medium game out to 200 yrds.
granted, few toys are as fun as a levergun for casual popping, but hunting 200 lb critters at 200 yrds out is something altogether different.

[Robert the41MagFan]

A 30/30 Marlin with a 2-8x40 scope can easily take world class deer at 200 yards. At 200 yards a 170 gr bullet fired from a 30/30 is traveling at over 1600FPS and still has almost 1000 pound feet of energy. At point blank, it will drop all but the absolute largest critters with claws. Remember, before all the fancy cartridges, it was all done with a 30/30. The 30/30 cartridge has harvest just about every animal in this hemisphere. Best bang for the buck, hands down.

Robert

[This message has been edited by Robert the41MagFan (edited December 18, 1999).]

[Gale McMillan]

In no way is even a 30/30 a bear rifle. I know of an instance where a bear was shot 7 times in the chest while he was standing on his back legs with a 45APC and when it was shot with a big rifle and they skinned it out the 7 45 slugs were laying in a tight cluster in the fat just under the skin It was shot from 7 feet!

[Dave McC]

Get the 30-30. Your great grandchildren will thank you....

[Robert the41MagFan]

At point blank range, a 30/30 has more power than a factory loaded 45/70. If the 45/70 can do the job, so can the 30/30. We are talking about a rifle for a gentleman that is looking for a good all round rifle. We are not sending him off to the Yukon to meet his doom.

Robert

[deepforest27]

Ok, guys, I really do appreciate the knowledge. A lot of experience here, obviously, but say I wanted a caliber for all-round use, up to and including bear, little recoil, as I ain't a big guy (5'10"--160). I've never been deer or bear hunting, so this is a new experience for me. My extent of hunting experience lies with rabbits, squirrels and birds of various sorts, so I am literally a sponge here trying to balance out what I need with what I want, while at the same time being practical with my choice. I can afford roughly $5-600 for the total package.

[Oleg Volk]

I would choose:

1)Real rifle caliber (i.e. not .45acp)
2)Relatively common caliber (i.e. 30-30 or 30-06 over .377 Locksley Express)
3)Design easy to clean and clear (i.e. removable magazine can be unloaded w/o chambering rounds as with level action)
4)Decent sights or ability to accept better sight (longer sight radius helps)

See what models that criteria would produce...

[Grayfox]

As a general purpose all around rifle, the 30-30 lever gun is hard to beat. I prefer Winchesters myself, but if you like the feel of the Marlin better, go for it.

The key issue here seems to be the bear question. What kind of bear are we talking about, black, brown, griz, what? For defensive use against a black bear, the 30-30 will be fine. If hunting black bear, I'd really prefer a heavier caliber, but the 30-30 has killed many of them. For the bigger bears, a 30-30 will probably just piss him off. If you really expect to deal with bears, get a bigger rifle.

I don't think a real "all purpose" rifle exists. But a 30-30 lever gun comes pretty close.

[Oleg Volk]

If you are dead set on a sever rifle, get one with a tang aperture sight...longer sight radius will be a great hep in accurate shooting.

[Albert]

If I may,
Let me add a couple of things to the stew.

Regardless of everyone's proclivities, the 30/30 isn't really an adequate bear cartridge. By adequate I mean a cartridge- rifle combination that insures, in the hands of an average hunter, a clean kill. I would recommend the 45-70 guide gun. The new 45-70 rounds that are available pack plenty of wallop. A large projectile at moderate velocity equalls penetration and energy transfer.

The 30-30 isn't a varmint round, but neither is the 45-70.

As to recoil, I may not be a good example. I have the same physical characteristics though. My main weapon for hunting is a Ruger#1 in 458WM. I use 510 grain soft points. My secondary is a Weatherby in 30-06. The Ruger weighs in at 8.5 lbs, and the Weatherby 6.75 lbs. Recoil doesn't bother me much, but I practice a lot, which helps familiarize one with recoil and its effects.

Having said all that, I think that the Marlin Guide gun would satisfy all the requirements. You've already handled the Marlin products so you know you like them. The 45/70 takes deer with ease, bear with confidence, and hogs with equal aplomb. With deer and hog, which don't usually present a threat, use standard 45-70 300 gr rounds. If you're going for bear switch to the Garrret 400 grainers. You'll be getting close to the 458 territory with them!

Practice with your gun. Buy 5 boxes of ammo and go thru them. Get into reloading if need be in order to cut your costs. Shoot as much and as often as is possible; the only way to be proficient is to practice.
Good Luck,
Albert

[Randy Garrett]

I've got to side with Gale McMillan, the 30-30 Winchester is no bear cartridge!! And any notion that it will do anything the factory loaded 45-70 will do is astonishing. The 30-30 is a good deer cartridge out to about 150-yds, in fact it is a fine brush gun for deer. Also, lets remember it is not energy that kills, it is tissue destruction. If energy were all that was required, then the 223 Remington would be as deadly against heavy game as a properly loaded 44 Magnum. When it comes to bears, deep penetration is required and the 30-30 Winchester has just enough penetration for deer, certainly not for bear. Don't forget, even back in the black powder days the 45-70 was a fine buffalo caliber, which is a clear indication that power is only meaningful to the extent that it can cause real grief to the target animal! There is little relationship between tissue destruction and energy generation, at least where big game is concerned. www.garrettcartridges.com

[Robert the41MagFan]

Remember a while back in the hunting forum hearing wild stories that 357 Magnum fired from a revolver will not kill world class deer (250 lbs plus). Well, like Mountain Dew, seen it, been there, done that. And, with a minimum load and at 50 yards. That was a 158 grain bullet striking a target at about 430 pound feet of energy. Since this discussion has come up, how about we settle it this way. Next year I will get a 30/30 and do another live Strasbourg test on a live bear this time. Will build a minimum load that on paper at least will drop a 500 pound bear. Go to the woods and do the test. We can settle this in a scientific fashion. Sound fair?

Keep in mind the original question, this guy wants a all round rifle. A 30/30 will more than do the job. It will swat any little fury critter like a fly, it will hunt ALL deer and if he gets in trouble with a fury with claws and teeth, the rifle will more than bail him out. Newbies don't hunt bear anyway, bears hunt them. Point blank is what we are talking here.



Robert



[This message has been edited by Robert the41MagFan (edited December 19, 1999).]

[Dave Finfrock]

Don't forget those Winchester and Browning M71s. The .348 WCF is a fine medium game cartridge. And, of course, there's the Winchester M88 in .358, the Browning BLR in .358, the Steyr Dragoon in .376, and...and...and...

The moral of this post is: bigger is better. Go big. Forget pistol rounds.

[dent guy]

The notion that the 30/30 round has "just enough" penetration for deer is absurd. I would never shoot a 200-250 lb. deer with a 45/70, maybe a water buffalo or elephant, but not a deer. You would be taking your meat home in a bucket from the massive tissue damage. The fact is, an average sized black bear would be in serious trouble with either round. If I had to, I 'm sure I could down an elk with a well placed 30/30 round. This isn't no sissy round everybody. I was black tail hunting this fall with a friend. He had a S&W 357mag , and downed a 250lb. deer with it. Now don't tell me that a 30/30 round is merely adequate. A 30/30 round would be just as lethal up close as anything else.


DENT GUY

[This message has been edited by dent guy (edited December 20, 1999).]

[Ned Roundtree]

Based on what he is tryng to do an all around gun, then a 30-30 Marlin is a good choice if thats what he wants. But I would have a bigger cartridge for bear. Why take a chance and just piss him off. For the unexperienced, a second shot on a wounded animal is tough sometimes. Either they run off and you spend hours tracking them down. Or they get pissed off and charge. But the object should be to bring him down in one clean shot. One shot one kill.

------------------
Courage is only fear that has said its prayers.

If i may-

I am not a hunter (yet, but will be soon), but the real question seems to be the likelihood of having to stop a large bear while you are deer/varmint hunting.

If your chances are "large" then why not hunt with an 870 with slugs. This would allow closer shots on the deer and decent bear repellent.

If your chances are "small" then the 30-30 seems like a good, economical choice.

If your chances are "great" bring your ex-wife with a sprained ankle and the biggest baddest rifle out there.

It seems to me that you are trying to get an all round gun that is cheap to practice with, accurate, able to harvest a deer with minimal meat destruction, take varmints, and can stop a marauding grizzly for a nominal price.

I think you really need to prioritize the deer/bear/varmint aspects so these very knowledgeable people can address your needs more accurately.

regards

Olazul

[Dr.Rob]

30-30 is a fine "all around" rifle choice, esp. when stoked with 170 grain bullets. I would not recommend "longe range " hunting past 250 yds with it since the caliber loses velocity quickly past 200 yards.

Having said all that the 30-30 has killed more game in north america than any other cartridge, with the 30-06 following a close second. EITHER caliber would be enough for a black bear in the lower 48 with the right loads. However, when it comes to Grizzly bears and BIG Brownies a much bigger rifle makes sense.

The best all around rifle for the lower 48 is a 30-06, there is no game you can't kill with it from (55 grain accelorator) varmints to (220 grain round nose) moose.

If you are set on a 30-30 lever gun get a marlin (easier to scope) and stoke it with 170 grain bullets. Sight it in to shoot 2.5 inches high at 100 yards and you will have a dead zero at 200 yards. I recommend a variable scope with a 40mm objective for this rifle if you scope it, if NOT paint the front sight bright orange, it will help you work on "point shooting"

The "camp carbine" is a "plinker" designed for defense and varmint control.. not as a main hunting arm, it is DEFINITELY not enough gun for bear, and is questionable for whitetail deer.

Use enough gun for the job, and practice like crazy.

Dr.Rob

[Red Bull]

I am looking to get a similar rifle. I think a lever action is really a great all around gun, with practice.

I was thinking of going with the .44 Magnum because I don't think my Dillon Sqare Deal will reload 30-30.

What do I lose if I shoot .44 mag instead of 30-30? I don't plan on shooting anything in particular with the gun, except maybe coyotes and tin cans, but in a real pinch, maybe a small deer (likely never).

[Red Bull]

Ps- people on the Handguns forum insist that they have taken Bear with a .44 magnum pistol. Multiple people claiming to have taken multiple bear. I have never even SEEN a bear outside of the zoo, so who am I to question them?
I think that maybe sometimes people that have NOT hunted large game overestimate the power that is needed. Deer, for instance, are quite small animals around my parts, and people take them with a Glock 17 9mm with no problem. As long as a deep pentrating round is selected, I think that some of the "lighter" calibers are more capable than most people think (eg: taking a bear with a 30-30)

[labgrade]

"My question is this. What can I use the Camp Carbine for? They look and handle very well at the store, so I'm pleased as far as quality is concerned."

If that tickles your fancy, get one. Part of the fun in shooting is to shoot what you like.

"With the .30-30 or .44, I plan on perhaps using this as a deer/bear/occaisional varmint rifle for close in work."

Either one should be sufficient, but there are better rifle/cartridge combos.

Sure, an 870 w/slugs should do the trick for close-in deer/bear but it's hardly a 200 yd shooter. Ditto any 30/30 or .44 just because the trajectory's fairly rainbow at the longer distances. Either one for varmits - may be fun but again, there's better choices.

Some of ya'll's answers make me rapidly blink my eyes. The gentleman's asking advise - not what you have. Nice to talk about how "my buddy, Frank" shot an elk at 1000 yds with a .223 but let's be realistic.
He's requesting pretty much an all-round rifle that'll kill (humanely, hopefully, is a requirement) deer or bear to 200 yds and will double-duty as a varmit shooter.

Any suitable bolt w/a 3X9 scope will do the trick very nicely. Figure 7-08 through 30-06
(and everything in between) covers all the bases (assuming adequate bullet placement). The heavier bullets will do any deer/bear ('cept the BIG bears & I don't think that's in the equation right now as the question was posed) & the lighter bullets will do varmits. All bullets (from super-expansive for varmits to premium big game) are readily available factory loaded. None are magnums & recoil is well within reason for all average shooters.

Especially if you're new to shooting rifles, try to get a buddy to take you out & try a couple different types. If you like the Camp Carbine, by all means buy the thing. Just be aware that the "lower powered" catridges will have some limitations based on your criteria. If you are really into just shooting & having a good time w/it - get whatever you find more pleasing to shoot (or to the eye, for that matter).

Other than that, get a Rem 7 in .308. That's what I shoot.

[wildcat]

Nufsaid about the 45-70 ,30-30,and.223 if you want a kill everything gun buy a 30-06 class cal. (.280 .270 30-06). If the recoil bothers you get a muzzel brake.If you must have a lever gun you can buy a Browning although it may strech your budget.