This State Just Annoys Me!

powerstrk · February 12, 2002, 10:55 AM

Most handgun permits issued outside metro area
Conrad deFiebre
Star Tribune

Published Feb 12, 2002
Seven out of every eight permits to carry handguns issued in Minnesota last year went to outstate residents, according to a Bureau of Criminal Apprehension study released Monday that is the first of its kind done in the state.

In all, the study counted 11,293 handgun permits issued or renewed in 2001, 9,903 of them in the 80 outstate counties of Minnesota. Permits are valid for one year.

Gun-rights advocates immediately said the results pointed up unfairness in Minnesota's handgun-licensing system, because people in the seven-county Twin Cities area -- who make up more than half the state's population -- got only 1,390 permits, 12.3 percent of the total.

Those who favor no change in the system, including law enforcement, medical and religious organizations, cited the study's finding that in the Twin Cities area, a higher percentage of permit applications -- 84.3 percent -- was granted than outstate, 78.3 percent.

"It should take the argument that there's been arbitrary and capricious application of the law in the metro area right off the table," said Bill Gillespie, executive director of the Minnesota Police and Peace Officers Association.

But Tim Grant of the gun-rights group Concealed Carry Reform Now said the numbers show only that in the metro area "everybody knows not to bother to apply. It's a waste of time and money." There were 12,773 permit applications outstate, compared with 1,647 in the Twin Cities.

The release of the study coincided with a brief Senate skirmish over the permit issue and a tie vote that kept a handgun bill from being considered.

The gun-rights side, however, marshaled one more vote than it had last year, when the Senate narrowly blocked passage of a measure that would make handgun permits available to most Minnesotans 21 and older with clean criminal and mental health records.

The lone vote-switcher was Sen. Bill Belanger, R-Bloomington, who said "extremely significant changes" in the bill had won his support. Under the new proposal, both police chiefs and sheriffs would retain authority to issue permits, and they would be able to deny or revoke them if there were "a substantial likelihood" that the gun owner may be dangerous to the public.

But the bill never got to a debate Monday, as a 33-33 vote kept it off the Senate agenda. Senate sponsor Pat Pariseau, R-Farmington, said it was unusual for the full Senate to deny such an effort to bring an issue to a vote, but added: "This isn't our only option. We're going to keep trying."

Last year, a similar bill was overwhelmingly passed by the House and given vocal support by Gov. Jesse Ventura. According to a legislative estimate, it would have resulted in 90,000 Minnesotans licensed to carry handguns within three years.

First statewide figures

The summary released Monday provided the first solid statewide figures on handgun permits, which are independently issued by several hundred police and sheriffs' offices across Minnesota with no central reporting system. A more detailed report, breaking out results from individual agencies, is expected Thursday from the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension (BCA).

The BCA survey, however, was hampered by the failure of 112 of the 493 agencies that were sent questionnaires to return them. BCA officials said that nearly all the nonrespondents were small outstate police departments, some of which may no longer exist.

For years, there has been a consensus that outstate police chiefs and sheriffs typically issue permits to most applicants, while authorities in the Twin Cities area often use their discretion to deny permits to anyone but those who need to be armed on the job, such as armored-car drivers.

Another piece of Monday's figures seemed to reflect that theory. Under current law, chiefs and sheriffs may issue handgun permits to those with a personal safety hazard or an occupational need to carry a gun.

According to the study, nearly 70 percent of outstate applicants cited a personal hazard, compared with 25 percent in the metro area. Even so, nearly three times as many outstate applicants as those in the Twin Cities said they needed a gun on the job.

Gillespie, of the Peace Officers Association, acknowledged that those figures support the notion that what constitutes sound reasons for carrying a gun -- for either business or personal protection -- is interpreted differently in urban and rural Minnesota. Under the Pariseau bill, applicants wouldn't need to state a reason for getting a permit.

Outstate authorities reported denying only 4.5 percent of permit applications, but an additional 17.9 percent of applications -- 2,292 of them -- were listed as pending or incomplete. In the Twin Cities, 15.1 percent of applications were denied, but only eight were left pending or incomplete.

BCA officials said they couldn't explain the wide discrepancy in the numbers of unresolved applications. The study was ordered by the 2001 Legislature.

-- Conrad deFiebre is at [email protected] .

LonWilson · February 12, 2002, 01:10 PM

33-33?

DAMNIT!!!

jimpeel · February 12, 2002, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Seven out of every eight permits to carry handguns issued in Minnesota last year went to outstate residents, according to a Bureau of Criminal Apprehension study released Monday that is the first of its kind done in the state.

That makes it sound like the permits went to out OF state non-residents

Quote:

In all, the study counted 11,293 handgun permits issued or renewed in 2001, 9,903 of them in the 80 outstate counties of Minnesota. Permits are valid for one year.

What the Hell is an "outstate county"????

powerstrk · February 12, 2002, 04:50 PM

Basically anything out of the 5-7 county metro area is considered "outstate"

Ralf · February 12, 2002, 04:57 PM

Michigan finally won its shall-issue CCW with a LARGE legislative majority. What's the difference? Doesn't Minnesota have an effective lobby presenting the facts to the legislature?

Jim March · February 12, 2002, 05:37 PM

I'll bet you good money the urban PDs don't let most people *apply* in the first place, explaining the low "denial rates".

We see that all over the place in Calif. Here's an example from the San Francisco Sheriff's Office, in which they admit that they don't even have the legally required policy manual written:

mpthole · February 12, 2002, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Doesn't Minnesota have an effective lobby presenting the facts to the legislature?

Well... we have Concealed Carry Reform Now! I'm sure they've had a positive effect by getting in the faces of legislators both in the house and senate and mobilizing people to contact their representatives. But, because its an all-volunteer group some things tend to fall by the wayside. There are only about 20 or so 'die-hards' who attend every single meeting - its these people that are the core organizers.

Facts have rarely been a concern to our legiscritters though. Remember how blue MN was in the 2000 election? Most of them are either left-wing, urban democrates or RINOs. There are very few truely conservative republicans in either house.

I've pretty much had it with this state and am getting ready to vote with my feet - by moving to a more conservative, freedom loving state.

**Edited to add that Jim March is right on. Some Twin Cities PDs give people such a run around in the application process that people just won't do it.

I could rant on about this subject forever...

deej · February 12, 2002, 10:17 PM

I thought this topic was going to be about California...

I wish we had a governor we could respect. It sounds like you guys have a fighting chance. Keep it up!

I hate quotes like this:

Quote:

Those who favor no change in the system, including law enforcement, medical and religious organizations

This makes it sound like EVERY LE, medical and religious organization in the state is opposed to right-to-carry, when in fact it could just be one leftist cop, a crank from an offshore medical school, and Jesse Jackson.

DJ

February 12, 2002, 10:55 AM	#1
powerstrk Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2001 Location: Back in Minnesota Posts: 101	This State Just Annoys Me! Most handgun permits issued outside metro area Conrad deFiebre Star Tribune Published Feb 12, 2002 Seven out of every eight permits to carry handguns issued in Minnesota last year went to outstate residents, according to a Bureau of Criminal Apprehension study released Monday that is the first of its kind done in the state. In all, the study counted 11,293 handgun permits issued or renewed in 2001, 9,903 of them in the 80 outstate counties of Minnesota. Permits are valid for one year. Gun-rights advocates immediately said the results pointed up unfairness in Minnesota's handgun-licensing system, because people in the seven-county Twin Cities area -- who make up more than half the state's population -- got only 1,390 permits, 12.3 percent of the total. Those who favor no change in the system, including law enforcement, medical and religious organizations, cited the study's finding that in the Twin Cities area, a higher percentage of permit applications -- 84.3 percent -- was granted than outstate, 78.3 percent. "It should take the argument that there's been arbitrary and capricious application of the law in the metro area right off the table," said Bill Gillespie, executive director of the Minnesota Police and Peace Officers Association. But Tim Grant of the gun-rights group Concealed Carry Reform Now said the numbers show only that in the metro area "everybody knows not to bother to apply. It's a waste of time and money." There were 12,773 permit applications outstate, compared with 1,647 in the Twin Cities. The release of the study coincided with a brief Senate skirmish over the permit issue and a tie vote that kept a handgun bill from being considered. The gun-rights side, however, marshaled one more vote than it had last year, when the Senate narrowly blocked passage of a measure that would make handgun permits available to most Minnesotans 21 and older with clean criminal and mental health records. The lone vote-switcher was Sen. Bill Belanger, R-Bloomington, who said "extremely significant changes" in the bill had won his support. Under the new proposal, both police chiefs and sheriffs would retain authority to issue permits, and they would be able to deny or revoke them if there were "a substantial likelihood" that the gun owner may be dangerous to the public. But the bill never got to a debate Monday, as a 33-33 vote kept it off the Senate agenda. Senate sponsor Pat Pariseau, R-Farmington, said it was unusual for the full Senate to deny such an effort to bring an issue to a vote, but added: "This isn't our only option. We're going to keep trying." Last year, a similar bill was overwhelmingly passed by the House and given vocal support by Gov. Jesse Ventura. According to a legislative estimate, it would have resulted in 90,000 Minnesotans licensed to carry handguns within three years. First statewide figures The summary released Monday provided the first solid statewide figures on handgun permits, which are independently issued by several hundred police and sheriffs' offices across Minnesota with no central reporting system. A more detailed report, breaking out results from individual agencies, is expected Thursday from the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension (BCA). The BCA survey, however, was hampered by the failure of 112 of the 493 agencies that were sent questionnaires to return them. BCA officials said that nearly all the nonrespondents were small outstate police departments, some of which may no longer exist. For years, there has been a consensus that outstate police chiefs and sheriffs typically issue permits to most applicants, while authorities in the Twin Cities area often use their discretion to deny permits to anyone but those who need to be armed on the job, such as armored-car drivers. Another piece of Monday's figures seemed to reflect that theory. Under current law, chiefs and sheriffs may issue handgun permits to those with a personal safety hazard or an occupational need to carry a gun. According to the study, nearly 70 percent of outstate applicants cited a personal hazard, compared with 25 percent in the metro area. Even so, nearly three times as many outstate applicants as those in the Twin Cities said they needed a gun on the job. Gillespie, of the Peace Officers Association, acknowledged that those figures support the notion that what constitutes sound reasons for carrying a gun -- for either business or personal protection -- is interpreted differently in urban and rural Minnesota. Under the Pariseau bill, applicants wouldn't need to state a reason for getting a permit. Outstate authorities reported denying only 4.5 percent of permit applications, but an additional 17.9 percent of applications -- 2,292 of them -- were listed as pending or incomplete. In the Twin Cities, 15.1 percent of applications were denied, but only eight were left pending or incomplete. BCA officials said they couldn't explain the wide discrepancy in the numbers of unresolved applications. The study was ordered by the 2001 Legislature. -- Conrad deFiebre is at [email protected] .

February 12, 2002, 04:50 PM	#4
powerstrk Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2001 Location: Back in Minnesota Posts: 101	"Outstate" Basically anything out of the 5-7 county metro area is considered "outstate"

February 12, 2002, 05:37 PM	#6
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	I'll bet you good money the urban PDs don't let most people apply in the first place, explaining the low "denial rates". We see that all over the place in Calif. Here's an example from the San Francisco Sheriff's Office, in which they admit that they don't even have the legally required policy manual written: __________________ Jim March

February 12, 2002, 01:10 PM	#2
LonWilson Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2002 Location: Aloha, Oregon Posts: 759	33-33? DAMNIT!!!

February 12, 2002, 04:57 PM	#5
Ralf Member Join Date: June 8, 2001 Posts: 95	Michigan finally won its shall-issue CCW with a LARGE legislative majority. What's the difference? Doesn't Minnesota have an effective lobby presenting the facts to the legislature?