Considering a Winchester M1 Carbine

[baddarryl]

I know very little about these and have obviously been doing some reading. A guy I know that runs a Pawn Shop always calls me when he has interesting stuff. This rifle will be coming out for sale soon. Due to company rules it can't be taken apart for inspection. He says it's a 1944 Winchester and that's all he knows. Sounds like he's going to ask about $1700 for it. It seems to be a good condition shooter grade, but like I said I don't really know other than there were several manufacturers and many were rebuilds. Originality obviously being key to value. Here is a link for pics. What are your thoughts? Can we tell anything from these pics? Thanks.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/6m96c...=djpbs0yk&dl=0

[stuckinthe60s]

winchester is a good one. tad high but hey...its a winchester.
in other words...he knows his guns.

[Fla_dogman]

See if he'll let you shoot it first or at least bore scope the barrel. Some of these old ones have a lot of rounds thru them

Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using Tapatalk

[eastbank]

i have a very nice early one i paid 550.oo for years ago when run of the mill were bring 400-450. as yours is, mine was also rearsenaled. adjustable rear sight, bayonet lug ect. to me its to high, but they are not making them anymore. i think 45-46 was the last years they were made, with over 5-6 million made.

[44 AMP]

The M1 .30 caliber Carbine was the most produced US rifle of WWII.

Originality does play a part in collector value, but M1 carbines can be completely original, and made up of parts from several different manufacturers.

Winchester was the original maker of the M1 Carbine and they made all the parts.

Unless the gun was brought home by a GI at the end of WWII, its mostly likely to have been reworked to the last standard, which means the bayonet lug added, the late model rear sight, and possibly the safety changed.

It may, or may not still have all Winchester made parts. When the guns went through rework, no effort was made to keep the original parts together when the gun was reassembled. Serviceable was the standard, not originality.

My Carbine guy said he thought $1700 was stupidly high. About $700 high, he said. I have no idea, other than I think people ask too much for M1 Carbines these days. Everything costs more than it used to, I've you've got the cash and it scratches your itch, go for it. My Carbine itch was satisfied back when $300 was an expensive price. Got one, learned it, played with it and sold it off many years ago.

New made carbines can be had from Auto Ord, and I think, Inland. But, why??

[bamaranger]

The "policy" of not allowing the disassembly of the gun sounds hinky to me. An "all Winchester" carbine would command the best price, and the only way to establish that, given it appears in in the proper configuration to start with, would be a full examination noting all stampings.

I've no idea what a pure Winchester carbine might be worth, but for a little over a grand, an Inland or Auto Ordnance can be had new, with a company behind it to offer support if all one wants is a shooter. Everything does indeed cost MUCH more these days and I should have bought a carbine long ago when they were being imported and sold for reasonable prices. Now, as 44AMP has said, they are bringing outrageous prices, new, vintage or clunker. Carbine ammo is not as common or cheap as it was either.

I'll not go into it, but there was a time when I got to shoot the Carbine a lot, I really like the little rifles. Even when they were reasonable, my money had to go elsewhere, now that they are so expensive, I still cannot justify it.

[44 AMP]

The "policy" of not allowing the disassembly of the gun sounds hinky to me.

Hinky? How about prudent? At least as a general policy.

First off, its a pawn shop. They may not have anyone on staff capable of dis assembly & reassembly. And even if they do, so what? As a policy, to me it makes perfect sense not to allow every five thumbed ape who comes through the door to take MY stuff apart because they want to look at it and say they know what they're doing.

Stuff can be damaged by improper reassembly. Even the finish can be harmed if things are not done properly.

Its not yours until you buy it. After that, you can do what you want with/to it.

A 1944 Winchester M1 carbine is not a particularly rare or special carbine.

[bamaranger]

Valid point, we've all seen gun shop idiots. However, if the shop is calling that a complete W-W carbine, and asking a premium price, I would want some verification prior the sale. Otherwise their not getting my money.

[Aguila Blanca]

44 AMP and bamaranger both have valid points. In the end, it's up to baddarryl whether or not he wants to risk $1,700 on hoping this thing is "all correct." I don't think the CMP has any carbines left, so that's not a benchmark for comparing prices.

I got burned once on an M1911 (not an A1 -- a WW1 vintage pistol). It was examined by a purported Colt "expert" and pronounced all original. Several years later, as I learned more, it became painfully obvious that it wasn't all original. It's the only firearm I've ever sold at a loss.

[Mike Irwin]

Depending on condition, I don't think that $1,700 for a carbine is out of line.

A few years ago a group came in and were being sold, by among others, Classic (IIRC), and prices started at $1,200 and quickly went up from there.

To the best of my knowledge, there haven't been any more imported since then.

Also remember that prices can be HIGHLY regional. What would be an outlandish price in one area could be an excellent price in another.

[44 AMP]

A point I made, but would like to emphasize is "all correct" in US small arms is NOT the same as "all original" or "in original issue configuration".

A GI gun with parts from different makers, or parts from different periods of manufactures can be 100% "all correct" because it was in service that way, and got that way by being in service use.

Just as one example, when the US adopted the 1911A1, it was ordered that all 1911s would be maintained with 1911A1 parts as needed. It was still that way when I left the Army in late 78.

Guns were repaired, when possible, in field shops just behind the front, and no effort was made to use matching maker parts, even if they were available, and known. Serviceable was the standard, and the only standard that mattered.

Very few of the companies that produced M1 carbines made all the parts in house. Winchester did, at first anyway, not sure if it stayed that way during the entire production period, or not.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

A point I made, but would like to emphasize is "all correct" in US small arms is NOT the same as "all original" or "in original issue configuration".

A GI gun with parts from different makers, or parts from different periods of manufactures can be 100% "all correct" because it was in service that way, and got that way by being in service use.

That's not what "all correct" means to collectors, or to appraisers. The CMP goes to great lengths to describe which of their guns have parts from various manufacturers. Those are priced lower than those with all parts from the original manufacturer.

[baddarryl]

OP here. I think if it can't be properly inspected it should not be considered anything more than a post war rebuild. Does anyone know what garden variety vintage carbines have been going for? Gunbroker isn't much good as the only listed 3 the other day.

[44 AMP]

He says it's a 1944 Winchester and that's all he knows.

So, no claim it is in original issue configuration, right? Unless it is being advertised as "all correct" meaning in original 1944 configuration, and that is being used to justify a top price, then the lack of being able to take it down and inspect it to verify the claim, is moot.

Easy way to check the obvious is just look at the outside of it. If it has the bayonet lug, the rotating safety, and the late model rear sight, it has been "upgraded" to post WWII standards. If so, its still a 1944 Winchester, just not in original 1944 issue configuration, something very common with carbines and many other US small arms.

[bamaranger]

Yes, that is what I was alluding to in post #6. If the carbine in question (CIQ) has the hardware 44AMP mentions, its been refurbished and is not a WWII gun. THAT could be established at a glance.

[Jim Watson]

Sad story, a guy here had a Winchester carbine but it would not work.
The dealer and I found the right receiver rail was cracked over much of its length.
I told my gunsmith, he told his son, a precision welder. I think they could have fixed it, and if not SA was making receivers at the time but he never brought it back.

[44 AMP]

That's not what "all correct" means to collectors, or to appraisers.

Any collector and certainly any appraiser worthy of the name should know that many US WWII firearms were made of parts from different contractors, assembled and put into service that way, intentionally. The M1 Carbine is one. The 1911A1 is another.

Rockola (for example) didn't make barrels. They made carbines, assembled from parts they made and parts they were supplied, made by others. They are the official manufacturer, because they turned out finished guns.

Unlike Germany, who made a practice of marking several of a weapon's parts with the last two digits of the gun's serial number, we rarely did that.

Numbers and letters found on the parts of US arms (not the serial number) are codes and identifiers (including inspectors marks) used during the production process, and while they have a meaning, they have no relation to the serial number, and may or may not identify the part maker.

There are many guns made that way and that are "all correct" because they were originally made that way.

A 1944 Winchester carbine, updated after the war is still a 1944 Winchester carbine. Its still a WWII gun, but no longer WWII "period correct" because of the post war update. This puts it in a different class for the collectors who want examples of a specific time only.

A 1944 Win carbine could have come home in a duffel bag in 1945 and spent the next 80 years in a closet. Or it could have been updated after that war, and served in Korea, or Vietnam, or somewhere else where we either used carbines or supplied them to our allies, and then eventually came back to the US and found its way to the civilian market. Or anything in between is also possible. Sometimes individual guns do an amazing amount of travelling.

Some time back, there was the story of a Luger in one of TFL's threads, that made an incredible journey.

German made P.08, made for the Dutch contract, and shipped before the war in Europe. The Dutch sent it to their forces in the East Indies. Captured there by the Japanese, it wound up in the Philippines, where it was later captured from the Japanese by US forces, and eventually made it back to the US in the hands of some GI, eventually reaching the civilian market decades later. These kinds of things happen, and have happened a lot more often than there is documentation showing what happened, when, or where.

[Aguila Blanca]

I didn't write "period correct, I wrote "correct."

Look at it from the perspective if 1911s. When the CMP first started selling 1911s again a few years back, they were very careful to grade those that were "correct" higher than those with mixed parts. ALL of their 1911s came from military sources, so in terms of being "correct" in the sense of arsenal or armory rebuilds they were authentic. But, because of parts interchangeability, a Colt pistol might come out of an armory with a Remington hammer and an Ithaca mainspring housing. Although "period correct" in the sense that that's the way the pistol was last in service, to a collector it's still worth less than a pistol of the same age, serial number range, and condition if all the parts are Colt parts as the gun would have left the factory.

That's what "correct" means to a collector.

Which is why, after the initial round of CMP 1911 sales, there was a period during which people who had bought examples of the lower grades were scouring the Internet to find things like hammers, mainspring housings, and grip panels to make their perfectly authentic mix-masters more "correct."

[Jim Watson]

I heard about the process of scrounging parts and "correcting" Garands, before I ever saw mention of doing it to a 1911. In the past, a 1911 expert would talk to you about "wear patterns" that would let him identify a replaced part even one out of the same factory.

[baddarryl]

What a fascinating discussion guys! Keep it coming! Thanks

[Ricklin]

I likely spend too much time on gun auction sites. Some sellers do a tremendous job on their marketing and selling. Marketing products was what I did prior to retirement.
A three day non-firing inspection is a fairly routine tool that sellers can use to help assure buyers purchasing an expensive item sight unseen.

Some sellers will not offer 3 day inspection on US martial arms. The problem being crooked buyers swapping in incorrect parts and returning the gun. Not a one off at all, I'm seeing it routinely.