Quickload Request

[1972RedNeck]

Would someone with quickload be willing to run some pressures for me? 45-90 Win with 405 grain cast bullets form Missouri River Bullets seated to 2.80" OAL. Looking for a 60,000 PSI load estimate for Reloder 7 and Accurate 2015.

Thanks in advance.

[mehavey]

60,000 psi ?

[Shadow9mm]

Thought it topped out around 45,000k psi with smokeless.

[ocharry]

WOW...thats a stiff one.....you should recheck those numbers

i guess my question would be ..what kind of rifle are you gona shoot it from??

[Jim Watson]

This is .458 Magnum MAXIMUM load range. Or more likely .458 Lott but I don't find anything for a 405 gr bullet.

[Unclenick]

Two concerns: While not always the case, because QuickLOAD and GRT do not take bore friction into account and because their model isn't your particular lot of powder, it is not uncommon for their pressure numbers to be a bit on the low side of what a pressure test gun would produce without doing some calibrating to measured load data.

Second, the only pressure number I have for 45-90 Win (2.88" max COL) is from the CIP, and they limit it to 32,000 psi. That is likely for older actions, so if you were working up a load for a Ruger #1 or other rifle that can handle the high pressure, you want to double-check that the case heads are thick enough to handle that pressure in the gun you are looking at. Some cases, especially old ones, can be too thin to hold that pressure.

The MB 405-grain design is not in the QL database. You would need to supply its length for any calculation to be made. Your desired pressure may be unreachable with 2015, but RE-7 is likely to get there. More information (bullet length) and study (check the case for adequate construction) is needed.

[mehavey]

With all due consideration, we need to know a leeeetle more about how a 60,000 psi 45-90 is going to be used -- and in what.

[1972RedNeck]

60,000 psi ?

Yes, sixty thousand PSI

Thought it topped out around 45,000k psi with smokeless.

Haven't found much of any load data but yes, what little data I have found is well under 45 KSI

Two concerns: While not always the case, because QuickLOAD and GRT do not take bore friction into account and because their model isn't your particular lot of powder, it is not uncommon for their pressure numbers to be a bit on the low side of what a pressure test gun would produce without doing some calibrating to measured load data.

Second, the only pressure number I have for 45-90 Win (2.88" max COL) is from the CIP, and they limit it to 32,000 psi. That is likely for older actions, so if you were working up a load for a Ruger #1 or other rifle that can handle the high pressure, you want to double-check that the case heads are thick enough to handle that pressure in the gun you are looking at. Some cases, especially old ones, can be too thin to hold that pressure.

The MB 405-grain design is not in the QL database. You would need to supply its length for any calculation to be made. Your desired pressure may be unreachable with 2015, but RE-7 is likely to get there. More information (bullet length) and study (check the case for adequate construction) is needed.

Bullet length is 1.040".

Starline Brass. Have been loading some 300 grain loads that QL puts in the 62 KSI range. Primer pockets are still good after 3 loadings so the brass seems to take it.

I know I am way over the 45-90 pressure specs, but I have a modern rifle that will take it. There just isn't much hot 45-90 load data out there. I am not looking to start with a max QL calculation. I am just looking for a pressure and velocity for a guidline as I work up.

I know I should just get quickload myself, but I'm afraid that I'm not smart enough to make it work with a computer. Getting signed into an internet forum is enough of a stretch as is.

[mehavey]

I have a modern rifle that will take it.

Please tell us the intended rifle/manufacturer/model.
Being a 45-90 owner, I'm curious for my own part.

[1972RedNeck]

Please tell us the intended rifle/manufacturer/model.
Being a 45-90 owner, I'm curious for my own part.

I was hoping to not to as I know it will distract from the topic at hand but if you insist, it's a late model Winchester/Miroku 1886. Yes, it says "black powder only" on the barrel. Yes, it's not rated for 60 KSI. Yes, somewhere a puppy will die every time I shoot a high pressure load in it. Yes, it will shake/stretch apart faster than if I were shooting BP loads.

Should anyone ever shoot a 60 KSI load in any Winchester 1886? Absolutely not. Is it recommended? No. Should you do it? No.

[GeauxTide]

If your barrel says "Black Powder Only", then the steel is not heat treated for smokeless loads. If you want 458 Winchester loads, buy one. In the 15 years I've been following this forum, this one takes the cake for the most idiotic.

[mehavey]

Read first:
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=597663

Read also
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...=1#post5001471
...for headache regime in the `86

Read heavy:
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...41&postcount=5

Strongly recommend the OP stay in conventional pressure regime....

[1972RedNeck]

If your barrel says "Black Powder Only", then the steel is not heat treated for smokeless loads. If you want 458 Winchester loads, buy one. In the 15 years I've been following this forum, this one takes the cake for the most idiotic.

Strongly recommend the OP stay in conventional pressure regime....

See. I told you it would distract from the topic at hand.

CAUTION: The following post includes load data generated by a crazy farmer. Such data should be approached by working up from published starting loads. USE THIS DATA AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL, nor QL's author or distributor nor GRT's author assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information or information derived from it.



67 grains of IMR 3031 under the aforementioned 405 grain cast bullet at 2.80" is a good performer for my rifle. I picked up a bunch of extra RL 7 and AA2015 and want to try them out.

I did a lot of research before I purchased this rifle. I bought it specifically for hot and heavy loads and it does not disappoint.

[Deltadart]

I am wondering if the brass will take that pressure without stretching a great deal or fail, plus pushing a cast bullet to 60K is a lot, I expect stripping, leading, and poor accuracy. Even with modern steel the Winchester 86 action is not designed for pressure like that, black powder only on the barrel is a warning, as it was designed in 1886 and black powder was the propellant used then. Also, not all modern steels are equal, in alloy, or heat treating. Do not be fooled by the term modern steel. The steel used is adequate for the intended purpose. The Winchester .458 cartridge with 75 gr of 3031, 400 gr bullet is 42,400 psi, and that would be in an action, barrel, and steel designed for heavy loads. Your rifle may handle if a few times, but I think you are damaging a very nice rifle, and it will be destroyed at 60K. If you are lucky only the gun will be ruined, and you or a bystander will not be injured. If you are unlucky it will be catastrophic.

[mehavey]

I told you it would distract from the topic at hand.

I believe what's happened is people are reticent to recommend load
information which is unsafe in the action being considered.

Having that very rifle in 45-70, I would not for a moment
contemplate a 60,000 psi load combination.

[Deltadart]

I've been shooting .45-70s since the early '70s in a few different rifles, I would not consider shooting any load that would approach that pressure in any of them. Neither would I consider in my Sharps 50 x 3 1/4. But then I am of the belief if you buy firearms designed for black powder, chambered for cartridges designed for black powder then shoot black powder or maybe Pyrodex. If you want to shoot smokeless there are hundreds of guns chambered in a thousand cartridges to choose from.
If he wants pressures in the high 50s approaching 60K in .458 caliber, Weatherby makes a very fine rifle for their .460 cartridge.

[Unclenick]

CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

I've heard of the 45-70 being loaded to 60 KPSI, but only in the Ruger single-shot actions. The Marlin 1895 has most folks recommending not over 40 KPSI, but M.L. McPherson has driven it into the 50s. Logic suggests that if it is happy with a constant diet of 40 KPSI ammo, then 60 KPSI won't exceed the upper proof range but would certainly cause me to keep my eyes peeled for any conventional pressure sign, and I would run a micrometer up and down the barrel initially so that if the steel start showing signs of assuming a permanent increase in diameter, I could back the loads off. In the 19th century, when proof testing canons, the British naval gun makers had to demonstrate that the traditional double-load test did not cause more than 0.1" change in OD. This will be right around 0.001" in the OP's gun size and would be a good check to make starting at the breech and going forward every inch and getting a record to see that it doesn't change.


1972RedNeck,

A couple of more items: Do you have the 22", 24", or 26" barrel?

Another item: since you are using Starline brass (good stuff) rather than antique spec brass, we need an internal volume measurement of an as-fired Starline case. The way you do this is to weigh your fired cases, pick an average value, and record it. Preferably, it should have been fired with one of your existing higher-pressure loads. This will cause the internal volume of the case to reflect your chamber's actual capacity best. Then, measure and record that sample case's as-fired length. Then, fill it with room temperature water level with the case mouth (no meniscus, positive or negative) and weigh it again. The difference between the empty weight and the full weight is called case water overflow capacity, and that is needed in QuickLOAD as one of the parameters.

When filling the case with water, tap it periodically to float bubbles out. If you overfill it, twist the corner of a Kleenex into a little rat tail, touch it to the positive meniscus briefly, and repeat as needed to get the water level flat at the case mouth. Also, dry off any water drops on the outside of the case before weighing.

Put the information here.

I can tell you that with QuickLOAD's default case water overflow capacity for this cartridge (88 grains), filling to 100% loading density with 2015 produces 38,691 psi and 2005 fps from a 24" tube. Reloader 7 at 100% produces 56,033 psi and 2158 fps. Your 67-grain load of 3031 fills the default case 126.5%, which is too much compression to avoid bulging a case, and even if you could squeeze it in, the pressure is predicted to be north of 70,424 psi, and the velocity at 2409 fps from the 24" tube. Given the impossible compression, I expect your case water overflow capacity to be higher than the default. It is common for QuickLOAD default case capacities to be conservatively small to discourage overloading.

[Jim Watson]

Interesting, 67 grains of 3031 is less than the Hodgdon starting load for .45 2 1/2" belted (.458 Win Mag). How do .458 and .45 2 4/10" (.45-90) case volumes compare?

(Old chart here shows 94 and 90 gr water, respectively.)

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by 1972RedNeck

See. I told you it would distract from the topic at hand.



CAUTION: The following post includes load data generated by a crazy farmer. Such data should be approached by working up from published starting loads. USE THIS DATA AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL, nor QL's author or distributor nor GRT's author assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information or information derived from it.







67 grains of IMR 3031 under the aforementioned 405 grain cast bullet at 2.80" is a good performer for my rifle. I picked up a bunch of extra RL 7 and AA2015 and want to try them out.



I did a lot of research before I purchased this rifle. I bought it specifically for hot and heavy loads and it does not disappoint.

I ran your load on GRT with default case volume and standard primer. Peak pressure is 64k psi.

The brass is the weakest link. So be careful.

Can hitek coated cast bullet withstand such high pressure?

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[44 AMP]

Just to be clear, you on a public forum, asking total strangers to give you a load calculation using a program known to have issues, for pressure levels nearly double SAAMI industry standards....

Is that REALLY such a good idea?

[Unclenick]

Others have expressed the same concern.

1972RedNeck,

My main observation is that if you can actually fit the 67-grain load of 3031 into your brass, you have case capacity that is substantially over the QL default, and hence, your pressures are actually not running as high as it predicted or that you think it is at. However, if you have chronograph feedback, that would be helpful in determining where you actually are.

Because this is all going into potentially very dangerous practices, I am going to close the thread and ask you to PM me for further discussion.