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View Full Version : Community Policing at it's Best...and Worst? [Long]


Rich Lucibella
August 5, 2001, 01:10 PM
I live in a very small community (1200). We don't maintain a "Police Force" per se....our guys are a "Safety Department". That means they rotate thru Police and Fire duty depending on the day/week. Perhaps, due to the size or the job functions, they tend not to be too gung-ho. Most are known to me by name and they regularly park at the end of the cul de sac I live on to write their reports. They'll call if something looks out of place, they encourage us to tie our alarm systems directly to their board (pretty cool in 2001), and they'll even check our homes when we're away.

On Friday night, I came home after midnight to find my driveway electronic gate and the front door both wide open. "This isn't good". We'd had an abundance of storms and lightening and I'd had guests in and out that day. Best guess: "Short in the gate controller; miss in locking the front door; heavy wind. "There's no actual latch on the front doors....just a deadbolt and handles)." Worst case...there have been three attempted break-ins in past....all by the same individual (a pro) who was finally caught.

Discretion being the better part of valor, I left the car in the driveway and moved to an empty lot across the street with my cell phone. First cop showed up in less than two minutes. The second a minute after that (that's the entire force at that time of night). I knew the second by face only; the first I'd not seen before.

The dispatcher's first question was "Are there guns in the house?"...."Sure" was the reply. Nothing more was said of this and I realized that, in a big city, I might have been taken aback by the question. In any case, it was a smart question for this small town dispatcher to ask.

After debating with myself for a minute, I realized that I wouldn't be on point in this little house clearing exercise. The responders don't know me well enough and common sense would certainly dictate that I remain in the background or outside. So, I explained to the Rookie: "I'm armed. I'll let you disarm me if you'd like, but I won't be going in with you, in that case." He left it to the Super who arrived and was given the same info.

Super never blinked an eye. He basically said, that's not necessary, just let us go in first. This is an interesting issue when placed in the context of a totally non-confrontational interaction with the cops. We're able to look at the issue of officer safety without getting our hackles up about personal freedoms. Had the tables been reversed, would I have requested the homeowners weapon? I think so....you're called out in dead of night to a home with the doors wide open and the armed homeowner in the street. You hope you know your partner's agenda, but for the homeowner....?? I, for one, would have no idea what might lay ahead. Domestic quarrel with spouse or girlfriend down and owner panicking? Just another news grabber gone over the edge? OTOH, they never asked me if there was anyone else in the house....there wasn't, but that could have made for a real disaster, especially since they already had info that there were guns in the house.

At any rate, we went in with me quietly providing layout to them as we went....it's a big house and sectioning it to keep a checked area "sterile" is not easy. The atmosphere was casual (we all knew the odds against anything untoward). However, it did create enough concern that both officers unsnapped their holster safeties and the Super drew his weapon before mounting the stairs to the 2nd floor.

In that context, the Rookie's behavior struck me as complete Condition White. He simply followed the Super, without thinking about their six. I stopped at two stages as they went into "dead end" wings...both times to heep an eye on the second floor stairs or other area's not yet checked. I would have expected the second man to take those positons instinctively....bad move.

The house turned out, as expected, to be clear. However, in their travels, I count no less than 5 firearms they encountered in the open....including the McMillan .50. As I don't have children, I've no need to apologize for firearms being out....in this case, I've been doing a belated cleaning from my last TX trip. Additionally, one or two of the weapons happened to be on a kitchen counter or in my office, because that's where they were taken off. Regardless, the Super remarked that he'd seen a number of guns so he doubted anyone had been inside...and he left it at that. (Way cool in 2001)

Lessons learned:
For me:
- Responsibility means double checking doors and alarm when you leave firearms out.
- It also means making a concerted effort to keep the available weapons to a minimum!
- Next time, hit the "All On" switch for lights as soon as you walk in the front door in such situations....would have made their job a lot easier.

For the Law:
- Team Tactics are readily available....USE THEM
- Know the layout of a building and ask whether there's pets or persons inside, BEFORE you go in....no matter how casual the encounter may seem.
- Keep making those tough decisions about whether the citizen before you is to be trusted or not with their firearm....but don't take unnecessary chances.

I'm proud of these guys, in that they didn't ask for my pistol. I'm real proud of the professional manner in which they dismissed 1911's, Glocks and Heavy Rifles to "personal right". But I also realize, under other circumstances, why an officer might ask me to surrender my weapon.
Rich

Meiji_man
August 5, 2001, 02:06 PM
Good Story,
I had the same thing happen to me just the other night. I come home from a night pf prowling around, Open and walk through the front door and notice that my back door is wide open.
Wow that'll wake you up real fast at 1:30 in the AM :eek:

So I draw my NAA mini out, Move directly to where my Colt Compact is, Draw it, Then preceed to "Clear" the rest of the Apartment. Took a whole 45 sec. From when I first came though the door.
Turns out I hadn't close the back door when I left for work that morning.
Dumb Me

Rainbow Six
August 5, 2001, 02:22 PM
Rich,

Great post! Great points! It's far too easy for us (LE) to fall into a rut in responding to such calls. Also, while Team Tactics do exist, they are rarely provided as training to small departments such as the one you describe. I agree whole heartedly about asking about any people or pets in the residence that should be there before clearing it when that luxury is an option.

Too many times I have found open doors and got no response to yelling "Police/Sheriff, is anybody home?" several times, then cleared the house to find an unsuspecting homeowner or pet oblivious to my presence. I have also had some close shoot/don't shoot (more accurately [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]/don't [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]:D) situations with animals that decide to rush from a room I'm about to clear, but that's another story! :D

I started out with a 4 man department where I was the only officer on duty on my shift. I wish I had a dollar for each residence or business I've cleared all by myself! Talk about pucker factor!!!

As for them not "knowing" you but allowing you to remain armed, it is quite possible that they do "know" who you are. When I worked for the small department I knew most everybody that lived in the town, except for the ever rotating residents of the trailer parks and apartments, whether or not they knew me. That's not to say that my decisions on whether or not to trust them based on what I did know about them was always prudent though. As you mentioned, it's a tough decision indeed!

FWIW, if I had cleared your house and seen the McMillan .50 I probably would have had to, ummm, confiscate it... for a day or two anyway!! :D

R6

C.R.Sam
August 5, 2001, 03:45 PM
good post, good debrief. Thanks Rich..........Sam

MellowMikey
August 5, 2001, 05:53 PM
Awesome Rich,
Good citizens with and without the badge. I wish I lived in a community like that, some of the cops I meet from my old agency scare the crap out of me. Kids with guns, or maybe I am just an old grouch... nah that can't be it. :p

Mikey

12-34hom
August 5, 2001, 07:30 PM
Thanks Rich, I really enjoy reading a post that has a happy ending for all concerned....:)

JB-man
August 5, 2001, 09:34 PM
It's good to see that good cops (especially who know the citizens) have no fear of them hangin' around armed. We are on the same side, and working together, strengthens the police force and comminity.
I wish it were like that in bigger cities.... like where I live....
--Sigh--

Zander
August 5, 2001, 11:28 PM
"We are on the same side, and working together,
strengthens the police force and comminity."

I am sorry to report that in my community of 3000 folks, the public safety "officers" haven't a clue about such things.

They are consistently and actively resentful that honest citizens carry handguns in their "areas".

Fortunately, widespread abuses [and subsequent federal 4th Amendment-violation lawsuits] have convinced the ostriches who run our tiny city that they need to hold their "officers" accountable.

Video recorders have been installed in the three patrol cars and the recorders and lapel mikes on the "officers" are activated whenever an "officer" lights the blues.

This ought to cut down on, if not eliminate, the arrogance, petty harrassment and abuse rampant here...about damn time.:mad:

Long Path
August 6, 2001, 12:50 AM
I've had that situation come up a couple of times. I ask the home owner if he would rather go in with me or remain outside. If the homeowner wants to go in with me (they always do), I want them behind me, with the gun put away. I want to know EXACTLY where they are, and I don't want a gun pointed at my back. Usually I'll ask them to wait at the foot of the stairs while I run upstairs to check (small area, unlikely to find anything, and I really do want to know that gun's not pointing at me.)

The very first thing I do when I get there is to ID the guy I'm talking to. If his ID doesn't say he lives there, he's not coming in with me, certainly not armed and behind me.

A whole lot of this, though, is going on gut instinct of what you think of the guy when you first meet him. I made the mistake once of telling a homeowner to stand put outside the offices at his show barn next to his house, while I searched it. (There had been a burgular alarm) I went in and then met him halfway through the offices as he worked his way through from the far side, Rossi .38 in hand. (sigh/eek) He asked me if I was me ( ;) ). I assured him that I was, and was somewhat enheartened to see that his gun was, at least, pointing at the ground between us, rather than directly at me. I asked him to have a seat and put his revolver down while I finished. When I clear a house alone (sometimes I have to), I don't reholster until the house is clear. As soon as my flashlight caught him, I recognized him, and I didn't have to suffer any of those shivers you get when you realize you've just pointed your firearm at the wrong guy. If I had it to do over again with him, I'd have asked him to give up his pistol and remain outside. He was just too... goofy.

That's the dadgummed problem, though. We have no way of knowing what a citizen's relative skill/safety level is with his firearm, or what his relative common sense level is with or without it.

I went to a house once where two sisters resided, and who stated they had an intruder upstairs. When I got there, they were huddled together in the bedroom, and advised that they had a gun in their bedside drawer. I waited with them until backup arrived, and told them sternly not to even open that drawer, as we were clearing the house. I told them that there would be two kinds of uniforms in the house (sheriff's deputy tan and my midnight blue), and that all officers would be in uniform, and that if anyone came into the bedroom other than the deputies or me, to scream bloody murder, whereupon 4 stout-hearted armed men would come dashing in. After we cleared the house, they came upstairs and checked behind us and looked in the attic behind us as well. They began telling us of how they just knew the one sister's ex-husband had been sneaking into the attic of the house via a secret trap door in the hipped roof, and planted listening devices and tracking devices. Any disturbance in the insulation, no matter how covered with dust, was clearly an indication that there was a new transmitter planted in the ceiling there. Folks, as much as I hate to disarm ANYone, I very nearly suggested that the ladies allow me to take possession of the house revolver until the one sister's husband returned from his business trip. After all... we wouldn't want the other sister's ex to steal it when he came in on his next surveilence burglary, would we? :rolleyes: But I was genuinely concerned that these ladies were hallucinating enough that some innocent person might get shot. My instincts with them had been good, initially, but I probably, in hindsight, should have asked to see the revolver, and just kept it until we left.


Rich--
DON'T go in alone or lead point, if you're going to call the cops. But DO call the cops. Why? Don't I believe you'd do as good a job of clearing the apartment as they? Sure you would, unless your department has an atypically tactically-proficient force. But those guys are paid to do it. That's what they're there for. They're wearing armor-- are you? Also, you have an alarm system. What if they responded to it, and found you in there? McKinney,TX P.D. had one of those horror stories in early June. (The female homeowner came home to respond to an alarm call. Officer arrives and shoots her when the door "bumped" the officer's Glock. But we've hashed that one over in Gen. Discussion before, and then some!)

It's hard for an alpha male (paging Mr. Lucibella!) to put his ego aside and let some unknown quantity (cop) check out the safety of alpha male's abode. But it's good policy, and I'm proud of you for doing it, Rich.

Who knows? Maybe the Rookie just knew that you had his back, and didn't think a second thought about it? ;)

--L.P.

Rich Lucibella
August 6, 2001, 08:24 PM
LP-
They never asked to play with my gun, so I never bothered to draw it. I believe, as you've said, that would really be pushing it...all three of us knew their level of training. AFAIK, mine is probably better and more current....but this was no time for a mini-qualification. In short, I'd simply have been a hindrance. Like I said, I could have really supported them by hitting one little button that would have lit up the entire house, in and out.

As for them getting paid for this type of thing, you know how uncomfortable I am with that. However, I've done my share of one man clearings in training...I agree that it's a fool's bet. If one has no choice (ie:gotta get to the kids), you do the best you can. Short of that, I have no problem calling in the locals.

The more I think about it, the more proud I am of this department!
Rich

Zander
August 7, 2001, 01:15 PM
"The more I think about it, the more proud I am of this department!" -- Rich

Have you dropped a note to the chief [or whomever] saying so, prominently mentioning your good experience with two of their finest?

Great PR and entirely justified. ;)

PreserveFreedom
August 8, 2001, 01:47 AM
I am glad it had a happy ending. It seems nothing was missing and nobody got hurt.

Long Path
August 8, 2001, 03:18 AM
A note is very nice, and perhaps a visit to your next city council meeting, to let them know what you think of your department, if you have the time. Getting the city council to know your face and name can be very useful when it comes to keeping the cogs of small-town guvmint greased.

Rich Lucibella
August 8, 2001, 09:57 AM
Done, done and done.
Council Meeting was Monday. Spoke to the Chief and 2 of the Commissioners.
Rich

IamNOTaNUT
August 8, 2001, 10:11 AM
Rich - That shows a lot of class. I am happy to be associated with a person such as yourself, even if it is vicariously through the internet.

Mike H
August 8, 2001, 08:56 PM
Rich,

Just out of interest, what were you carrying, how, and with what load. I've always wanted to know where your preference lies.

Glad it turned out ok.

Regards,

Mike H

Rich Lucibella
August 8, 2001, 10:25 PM
What I carry doesn't matter....honest. I'm a guy who helps run a web site for guys (and gals) with similar interests. What's important is what the pros carry.....and why.

Besides, if I tell you that, I'm duty-bound to tell the BG's about my valuable collection of Velvet Elvis Posters!!!!!!!!!!
Rich

Mike H
August 8, 2001, 10:48 PM
Rich,

Disappointed doesn't cover it.

Mike H

Long Path
August 9, 2001, 10:12 AM
Mike-
Let your imagination run wild! C'mon, give it some license to stretch its legs! Sometimes I'll imagine Rich with an ancient matched set of nickel-plated, highly-engraved Baby Brownings with pearl handles and zircon insets. Other times, I picture him with a Bren Ten and two of the world's tiny supply of spare magazines, hanging from a shoulder rig. Then there's times when I figure he's going for high-tech spooky, so in those imaginings, he's either carrying a Gyro-Jet or a Wildey in a strong-side paddle holster.

But y'know, he coulda just had a Sebenza and a really mean streak, too!

;)

pax
August 9, 2001, 10:46 AM
Rich has gotta be a 1911 guy. :)

pax, just guessing.

Rich Lucibella
August 9, 2001, 05:38 PM
:D
Rich

Zander
August 9, 2001, 06:08 PM
...I don't bestow many of those. :cool:

"Done, done and done." -- Rich

This is exactly the kind of communication we need to re-establish a damaged link to those we pay [usually poorly] to do a dangerous and dirty job.

Your situation turned out to be a positive one and you reinforced it immediately.

Others should follow your lead, no matter where they live.

Mal H
August 9, 2001, 06:48 PM
Now if you guys had been on your toes and looked sharp like he requires us to do, you would know what Rich carries. ;)

I saw it, but I'm not talking! (But I do wonder where you got that IWB for the .50.)

One thing that's clear, he does cherish those Velvis Elvet, er rather those Velster Pelvet, aw heck, he likes Presley pix! :D

HankL
August 9, 2001, 07:05 PM
For a small town, I would have to say that this is community policing at or near it's best.
Longpath, the next time the alarm goes off at my business, I want you to be there. From the time I get the call from the alarm co. to being able to be on site is 20 min. Even with a forced entry point I am always the first one in :confused: Big Old rambly assed buildings with lots of blind spots and hidey holes. My business is located in a small metropolitan area of 250,000 people or so. I only know by face and name 4 or 5 officers in my area and they mostly know about me which is fine. The main problem is convincing the security companys guys that show up to secure the exits and stay where you have put them. Of course, in a town of that size if you do hem up an individual down a long dark scary corridor the officer in charge can order up the K9 Unit now that's worth getting up at 03:00 hrs for! I don't like doing it but I think that that is the best way that I can help the officers that respond.
RICH LOCK YOUR DOORS!

Zander
August 9, 2001, 07:06 PM
I do have a pair of really shiny panels for sale...and I'm from Tennessee. LOL!