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RevolverOcelot
July 16, 2015, 06:41 AM
I've decided to finally make a change and have a carbine ready for home defense as well as a handgun. (I don't do well with shotguns with my shoulder, and prefer more capacity)

Really it's between 5.56 in a Mini 14, and 7.62x39 in either my Mini Thirty, SKS-M or Arsenal SLR107FR.

Based on my research, the 5.56 load would be the Speer 64 grain JSP, and the 7.62x39 load would be the Hornady SST.

My dilemma lies in this: I'm not sure if I trust the 5.56's (even with what I've determined to be the best load) ability to stop an attacker as quickly as the SST 7.62x39, but I'm also concerned about overpenetration with the SST 7.62x39. While Hornady states penetration in gel to be within the 12-18 inch FBI acceptability range, I've seen tests performed that show it penetrating well over 20" (like in the link below by Mrgunsngear, maybe he'll show up here). I live in a suburban home. I'm not concerned about the Speer JSP overpenetrating, as it seems to penetrate no more than a good JHP handgun round, but I have doubts about the 5.56. It's generally considered not powerful enough for reliably taking down a 110lbs whitetail, even with good loads. Why is it considered enough for an average-sized human?

Any insight would be appreciated.


7.62x39 SST test my Mrgunsngear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF89dysghUs

olddav
July 16, 2015, 08:18 AM
You can't compare a hunting environment with home defense environment. A hunting environment consist of ranges of 100 to 300 yard or more while in the home defense environment you see distances of 30 feet. I am quite certain that any fire arm chamber in 5.56 will provide adequate protection at such a short distance.

Art Eatman
July 16, 2015, 09:08 AM
At defense distances, it doesn't matter which of your caliber choices you use. For all practical purposes, they're equal. The deal is to use the firearm with which you are most familiar and most accurate.

cslinger
July 16, 2015, 09:15 AM
People stop attacks all the time with a 9x19mm out of 4inch or less pistols. A 5.56 rifle at contact range should be fairly "adequate" me thinks. The additional 10-30 rounds on tap that are very easy to shoot probably add a bit to the adequacy.

The point is I don't think I would worry about being able to stop a threat with a .223 semi auto at close range. If anything I would be more worried about what the noise and blast would do to me.

RevolverOcelot
July 16, 2015, 11:10 AM
Thanks for the replies. I didn't mean to suggest that I'm worried about range. A home defense situation would be very close range. My concern is that the 5.56 might not stop the attacker as well as the x39. I know we've all heard of the problems the 5.56 was having in the Middle East. I know many of the cases were at longer ranges, and the M855 is nothing like the load I'm considering, but it still makes me uneasy. A very close friend actually dealt with it first hand in Iraq in 2004, where he said even at close range it would take several shots before the bad guy went down. He was eventually issued an M14 with iron sights and in his experience it was always a one shot affair. I understand that the M14 is much more powerful than the x39, but I don't think swinging around an M14 in the house would be a good idea :D

Bake
July 16, 2015, 11:22 AM
It's not what you hit with, but where you hit with it...:)

skizzums
July 16, 2015, 11:50 AM
i have no facts to back this up. but the .223 seems to be percingly loud compared to x39. i am sure they are probably close to equal in decibals, but the high pitched scream of the 22cal hurts outdoors, i could only imagine inside. the x39 seems to be a lower boom and not as painful. i have shot both without earpro, by accident. just maybe something to consider. but if overpenetration is your main concern, i would go with a lightweight .223 in some kind of tipped round.

Sharkbite
July 16, 2015, 11:53 AM
The 556/223 round is dependent on 2 things for effectiveness

1..VELOCITY. The origional design for the M16 was a 20" barrel and a 55gn bullet. The shorter barrels used now cut into the velocity. Add in the use of heavier (62gn) FMJ and the military is experiencing less then optimum effect on soft targets


2.. BULLET DESIGN. In a HD situation a lightly constructed varmit type bullet, designed to fragment rapidly will SIGNIFICANTLY improve terminal performance.

A number of LE SWAT teams have been using shorter barreled M4's with Hornady TAP ammo. GREAT results with this ammo.

Dont discount the 556 as a people stopper. With the proper ammo it is devastating.

As to the 556 vs X39 debate...either one will do the job. Pick the one you are most comfortable with. My preference would be the 556 in a shorter AR platform. But that is based on personal familiarity with that rifle

Bake
July 16, 2015, 12:45 PM
Way back when, had a friend that was a surgeon in Vietnam. Now he says he didn't keep really good records, but he says there's not a dimes worth of difference between the M-1 carbine (30 cal.), M-16 (5.56mm), AK (7x39mm), or the M-14 (7.62mm NATO) rounds. He says all bullets make a hole going in and make a hole coming out, and leave a big mess in between.

Grant D
July 16, 2015, 01:05 PM
Let's see, I have a Ruger Mini 30 in my safe next to a 7.62x39 AK-47.

I also have a Hi-point 9mm carbine leaning against the wall in my bedroom. It's short, and accurate enough for home defense.

It also has two extra magazines clipped to the stock, so that's 30 rounds total at hand.

T. O'Heir
July 16, 2015, 02:03 PM
Unless you're way out in the Boonies, no rifle cartridge is suitable for HD. Far too much penetration with any bullet. No cartridge, rifle or hand gun, will stop anything or anybody with 100% reliability either.
In a suburban home(that is notin the Middle East or Iran), you risk sending a bullet way down the street and/or through your neighbour's house walls(assuming wood construction. An SP or SST out of a 7.62 x 39 will very likely penetrate typical brick walls too.). You are responsible for where every shot you take ends up. And it doesn't take much stress to be less than precisely accurate with inaccurate firearms. Take a shot at olddav's 30 feet(10 yards), at somebody who you are not 100% sure has a firearm pointed at you ready to fire and you get charged.
None of those rifles are accurate enough anyway.

mavracer
July 16, 2015, 02:10 PM
no rifle cartridge is suitable for HD. Far too much penetration with any bullet.

Most 5.56 penatrates less sheet rock than typical SD handgun rounds.

Dragline45
July 16, 2015, 02:27 PM
My dilemma lies in this: I'm not sure if I trust the 5.56's (even with what I've determined to be the best load) ability to stop an attacker as quickly as the SST 7.62x39

It seems to do pretty well for our armed forces, and based on what I have seen for the 7.62x39, I would take the 5.56 any day over it.

It's generally considered not powerful enough for reliably taking down a 110lbs whitetail, even with good loads. Why is it considered enough for an average-sized human?


Because deer are alot tougher than humans are. Most people cant take a .308 or .30-06 round in the heart or lungs and run for over 100 yards.

no rifle cartridge is suitable for HD

Light HP or SP 5.56 are probably the most suitable cartridge for HD, regardless of it's a pistol, rifle, or shotgun load. The high velocity and light weight of certain 5.56 loads will cause them to break apart in building materials and penetrate less than 9mm or 00 buck. This is why you are seeing a trend in LE, especially SWAT, switching from 9mm SMG's to 5.56 SBR's. Even without using specialty 5.56 loads, they will still tend to penetrate less than even 9mm.

DanTSX
July 16, 2015, 07:32 PM
The 5.56 ...use law enforcement ammo for urban situations that limit penetration. I use 75 gr hornady tap.


You have 30 rounds on board. If you cannot stop an attacker on the first shot, give him lead until he stops.


You're not hunting deer or trying to attack a machine gun nest on Omaha beach. You'll have complete domination once lead starts flying. Just keep pulling the trigger.

Dfariswheel
July 16, 2015, 08:26 PM
As usual, the answer is to ask the real experts what they use.
The experts are not your local cop or a shooting school operator.

Today, the real experts are military special ops people who've been shooting A LOT of people at close range since 9-11.
That would be mostly the Navy SEALs, simply because they can use pretty well whatever they want and aren't restricted to the 5.56 like other military units are.

What they want is the 5.56. probably loaded with a commercial type soft point hunting bullet load similar to the above mentioned Hornady TAP load.
In the last one or two issues of the American Rifleman was an article about a legendary Army Special Forces Sargent who discussed the best options for home defense.
His highly informed choice is the 5.56 in an AR-15, with the mags loaded with the full 30 rounds.

RevolverOcelot
July 16, 2015, 08:50 PM
Actually, that's another problem :/

If I choose 5.56, I believe I will switch from the Mini-14. It's not even more accurate than my AK's, and I'd prefer a pistol grip, cheaper and more reliable magazines, and at least as or more reliable. I want to like the AR15 but am concerned about it's reliability. Even the piston guns are more complicated. I suppose the AR is the gold standard in American carbines today, but is there a more robust, reliable option with plenty of market support?

Dragline45
July 16, 2015, 09:41 PM
Today, the real experts are military special ops people who've been shooting A LOT of people at close range since 9-11.
That would be mostly the Navy SEALs, simply because they can use pretty well whatever they want and aren't restricted to the 5.56 like other military units are.


Spot on. Here is a look at former Green Beret JD Potynsky's rifle he used during his tours. He could have used any rifle he wanted, in any configuration, yet he still chose to stick with a 5.56 SBR in an AR platform.

http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/JD_01-440x293.jpg

Bongo Boy
July 16, 2015, 09:53 PM
For me it's 10mm Auto with a 16" barrel. Mostly, I rely on having more outdoor lighting, more cameras and more dogs than my neighbors do--and the hope that intruders are sharp enough to recognize that fact. One just never knows.

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x150/Bongo_Boy/MT-CCU-10/CCUGlock08_zpsecbcc9e9.jpg (http://s182.photobucket.com/user/Bongo_Boy/media/MT-CCU-10/CCUGlock08_zpsecbcc9e9.jpg.html)

kraigwy
July 16, 2015, 10:40 PM
My concern is that the 5.56 might not stop the attacker as well as the x39

Having seen several people shot with both in SE Asia, I find that statement not to be true.

But, there is no such thing as a guarantee DRT. I don't know if you are a hunter or seen hunting shows, but I've seen many deer hit good in the heart/lung area and run several hundred yards before dropping with 270, '06 and so forth.

Then again I've seen critters drop in there tracks. Its a given, you never know what a shot critter, two or four legged is gonna do when shot.

You want to stop some one, gut shoot them. Might not kill them, but chances are it will stop or slow them down.

All of use have been hit in the stomach at one time or other. Think back on your actions with you were hit in the gut. Chances are you drop what ever you have and double over.

Having said all that any rifle will do (though you don't know what it will do). I'm a rifle shooter, but I see no reason to use anything but my J-frame 38 in the house. The thing is, its always in my pocket, available. My long guns are in the gun save. I don't leave any out, first they are too slow to get to, and 2nd. most important, I don't know the kids my grandkids bring out to grandpa's house. I do know they wont pick my pocket, and I know they cant get into the safe.

dirtd0g
July 17, 2015, 12:03 AM
The benefits to a rifle or shouldered fired weapon is that they tend to be easier to shoot especially under stress. I don't know if I would push 5.56 through a Mini-14 and I definitely wouldn't grab my SKS right off the bat in response to an intruder in my house; they are both too long to maneuver around my hallways effectively.

If you want capacity, accuracy, and the compactness needed for extreme close quarters combat with a rifle you're going to be better served by a nice little M4-build and may even want to consider a pistol-caliber carbine.

Snyper
July 17, 2015, 01:04 AM
T. O'Heir:
An SP or SST out of a 7.62 x 39 will very likely penetrate typical brick walls too.).

None of those rifles are accurate enough anyway.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

Theohazard
July 17, 2015, 01:43 AM
Unless you're way out in the Boonies, no rifle cartridge is suitable for HD. Far too much penetration with any bullet. You keep posting this nonsense in every thread that mentions using a .223 for home defense, I must have seen you post this at least five or six times now. Each time we point out that you're wrong and why, and yet you keep posting this again and again.

After all evidence that we've provided showing that -- with proper defensive ammo -- a .223 will penetrate walls LESS than any defensive pistol or shotgun load, do you still think we're somehow wrong? Do you have any evidence to show that all the tests we've linked so far are flawed and that the FBI and law enforcement agencies around the country are misguided in their choice of .223 rifles? Please, tell us why you think we're wrong.

jmr40
July 17, 2015, 08:37 AM
I'd be 223 for me. No difference in performance, less recoil, cheaper and because it is far less likely to over penetrate than most any round.

Art Eatman
July 17, 2015, 10:23 AM
RevolverOcelot, if you prefer the ergonomics of the AR and its pistol-grip, fine. But at defense distances, accuracy is not an issue. The Mini will hold "minute of cranium" quite well.

RevolverOcelot
July 17, 2015, 04:15 PM
RevolverOcelot, if you prefer the ergonomics of the AR and its pistol-grip, fine. But at defense distances, accuracy is not an issue. The Mini will hold "minute of cranium" quite well.

Not worried about accuracy in home defense, but I feel like I could "upgrade" to another 5.56 rifle eventually if I go with that caliber, but I'm not really an AR fan. The only AR-related rifle I would consider is the HK MR556. I'm not satisfied with the AR15's reliability history.

Theohazard
July 17, 2015, 04:32 PM
I'm not satisfied with the AR15's reliability historyThe AR-15 family of rifles is one of the most reliable firearms in the history of firearms. My various ARs have been the most reliable guns I've ever owned, and my M16A2 I carried in the Marine Corps was extremely reliable as long as I wasn't using old, worn-out magazines.

The stories of the AR being unreliable come from Vietnam when they issued the first M16s to the troops without finishing the design. The barrel and chamber weren't chrome-lined, the buffer system was designed for the wrong ammo, the magazines sucked, and they didn't issue it with cleaning kits.

But once the rifle's design was finished properly and the troops were given cleaning kits, the rifle performed far better. Today, after decades and decades of refinement, there's no rifle I'd rather take to combat than a direct-impingement AR-platform rifle.

Both my current AR builds have been flawless without a single stoppage. I shoot suppressed a lot and the rifles get really dirty, but all I do is pop the BCG out once in a while, give it a quick wipedown and a quick lube, and pop it back in. I rarely ever clean my rifles, and yet they keep going and going.

Dragline45
July 17, 2015, 04:41 PM
I'm not satisfied with the AR15's reliability history.

The AR is one of the most reliable rifles around. Type into google "BCM Filthy 14" and see just how reliable they can be.

Sharkbite
July 17, 2015, 04:43 PM
As usaual Theo hit it right on the head.

A properly set up AR will run and run, even with abuse. A "Franken-gun" with the wrong port location or size, wrong buffer and spring or other problems will be a jam-o-matic.

I currently have 6 AR platforms and would trust any of them to run flawlessly for HD/SD.

Like Theo i carried a M16a2 in the Corps and with live ammo it NEVER failed to function. Add a BFA and shoot blanks--thats another story. In addition i have carried a 10.5" M4 in assorted "Sandboxes" over the last 10 years and my guns have been VERY reliable. I will say that working as a Contractor, i have trained and shot a lot more then i did as a Marine. Quarterly quals and lots of training in between have given the M4 LOTS of chances to malfunction. So far im TOTALLY convinced of the platforms reliability.

RevolverOcelot
July 17, 2015, 05:56 PM
What are yall's opinions about piston AR's?

RevolverOcelot
July 17, 2015, 06:20 PM
To be frank, this piece, which does contain valid statistical information, probably best explains my concerns with the AR15 and the 5.56mm in general.


http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2004/08/the_last_big_lie_of_vietnam_ki.html

In a 3 March 2003 written briefing, LCdr. Gary K. Roberts, USNR recommended to RAdm. Albert M. Calland, Commander, Naval Special Warfare (NSW) Command that he upgrades his command's 5.56mm weapons to the 6.8mm cartridge. That briefing, entitled, 'Enhancement of NSW Carbine & Rifle Capability,' opens by observing:



Recent combat operations have highlighted terminal performance problems, generally manifested as failures to rapidly incapacitate opponents, during combat operations when M855 62gr. 'Green Tip' FMJ is fired from 5.56mm rifles and carbines. Failure to rapidly incapacitate armed opponents increases the risk of U.S. forces being injured or killed and jeopardizes mission success.

Sharkbite
July 17, 2015, 06:20 PM
I used a 416 for a brief period of time on one contract. It was ok. Ran fine and the BCG stayed cleaner. A little more weight up front and seemed noiser suppressed then the DI guns ive run. The mags were STUPID heavy

All in all, im going to stick with DI in the AR platform

Theohazard
July 17, 2015, 08:00 PM
What are yall's opinions about piston AR's?

From a military standpoint, piston rifles are better for sustained full-auto fire because they run cooler and cleaner, which is why the Marine Corps uses a version of the HK 416 as their new squad automatic rifle. But unless you're in a home-defense situation that requires multiple thousands of rounds in a short period of time, I can't really see this as being an issue for a civilian. After all, the Army and Marine Corps have decided to stick with the direct-impingement M4/M16 for the foreseeable future, and that's because it fits the current need. None of the piston rifles tested by the Army were enough better than the M4 to justify a switch, and some were worse. And I think it's safe to say that the needs of the average civilian are less than that of the average soldier or Marine.

So that brings us to the advantages of a piston rifle for civilian use. There are really only two. The first is that it runs cleaner, so if you hate cleaning it's a better choice. The second is that it puts less gas to your face when shooting suppressed, which is a big issue for some silencer users.

But I prefer direct impingement for the following reasons:

-- DI rifles are simpler and the parts aren't proprietary to one specific company.

-- A DI rifle is lighter because there are fewer parts.

-- DI rifles tend to have less muzzle climb because there aren't extra moving parts above the barrel.

-- A suppressed DI rifle will be quieter than most suppressed piston rifles because it doesn't vent hot, loud gasses.

Theohazard
July 17, 2015, 08:05 PM
As for your concern about the 5.56, keep in mind that military rounds like the M855 are chosen for their penetration. And, as a result, they tend to punch right through people, causing less damage than a typical civilian defensive round. But civilians don't usually have a need for extra penetration, in fact we often want to avoid it. So law enforcement and home-defense rounds like Hornady TAP cause a lot more damage than military 5.56 ammo while also minimizing collateral damage due to over-penetration.

RevolverOcelot
July 17, 2015, 08:26 PM
As for your concern about the 5.56, keep in mind that military rounds like the M855 are chosen for their penetration. And, as a result, they tend to punch right through people, causing less damage than a typical civilian defensive round. But civilians don't usually have a need for extra penetration, in fact we often want to avoid it. So law enforcement and home-defense rounds like Hornady TAP cause a lot more damage than military 5.56 ammo while also minimizing collateral damage due to over-penetration.

While this is true about the M855, ballistics experts like Dr. Gary K Roberts have attested that the M193 loading (which is widely considered to be the most effective FMJ, if I'm not mistaken?) also doesn't reliably perform, and will either yaw and fragment, or punch a .22 hole.

I'm not filled with confidence about a round that performs reliably adequate only with certain loads and is too small/underpowered with FMJ.

But, maybe I'm being unfair. From what I've seen most 7.62x39 FMJ just passes straight through without much disruption too, but at least it's a .30 cal, 124 grain (or right around there) bullet, albeit much slower.

Theohazard
July 17, 2015, 08:44 PM
While this is true about the M855, ballistics experts like Dr. Gary K Roberts have attested that the M193 loading (which is widely considered to be the most effective FMJ, if I'm not mistaken?) also doesn't reliably perform, and will either yaw and fragment, or punch a .22 hole.That's one of the reasons why nobody recommends M855 or M193 for law enforcement or home-defense use. Check out defensive loads like Hornady TAP.

That said, M193 is still FAR more effective than any duty or defensive pistol round.

SHR970
July 17, 2015, 08:50 PM
But we are not constrained to military FMJ anything. We can use what is best for our needs. Win 64 gr. PP anyone? TAP? Varminter? etc. etc. etc.

I can use 223, 7.62, 9mm, whatever with whatever ammo I want. If the ammo fits the bill, use it.

Chose gun..chose appropriate ammo. Next!

2rugers
July 17, 2015, 10:08 PM
The m193 fmj is a frangible round out to about 175 yds in a 16" barrel, 200 or so from a 20". At hd ranges it causes massive wounds and destruction. You should not hesitate to consider it a very good choice for hd.

amd6547
July 17, 2015, 10:21 PM
If the 5.56 didn't exist, somebody would invent it, and it would be the latest greatest wonder round, and very expensive.
But, we don't have to invent it...we can just go to Walmart and buy it.
I feel quite well armed with a 16" AR loaded with 20 55gn SP rounds in it.

tdoyka
July 17, 2015, 11:36 PM
30 carbine in the m1

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/M1_Carbine_Mk_I_-_USA_-_Arm%C3%A9museum.jpg/300px-M1_Carbine_Mk_I_-_USA_-_Arm%C3%A9museum.jpg

i use one:D

dakota.potts
July 17, 2015, 11:56 PM
I wouldn't be worried about the effect of .223 ammunition. Get a good high velocity hollow point or ballistic tip. Mine in the safe is loaded with 60 grain V-max from HPR. I know when I shot a hog with it, the hog was already starting to twitch before she had hit the ground.

FMJ ammunition, especially m855, really is not good for home defense. You'll end up with a bullet that doesn't fragment or yaw, punches a .22 caliber hole, and likely doesn't destabilize going through walls or other material and creates more collateral damage. Go with Hornady TAP or V max, Barnes TSX, Winchester PDX etc. if you want to increase the effect.

Granted, my VZ 58 in the safe is also loaded next to my AR with a magazine of Winchester PDX. However, to get to the gun cabinet I have to go to my closet. If I'm in my closet, I'm already behind 2 locked doors. The closet only has one entrance, and the only direction to fire is out the back of the house which backs up to a large berm behind my apartment. The handgun stays next to the bed to give me time to grab my girlfriend, lock in the closet, and get a gun each. This set up is planned to minimize risk, but will not eliminate it. In an apartment, even a high velocity .223 doesn't have to stay together very long to enter somebody else's house.

TexAg
July 18, 2015, 09:17 PM
When I used to read a lot of forum posts before I had an AR I thought they weren't reliable enough either. But I did notice over the years that there were fewer and fewer reports of unreliability. So after getting a 15-22 and enjoying the heck out of it, I got a M&P 15 and have enjoyed the heck out of it too. It's been totally reliable and I've even won a couple small competitions with it.
So, is it stocked with fmj right now? Nope. V-max. It's accurate and destructive.

I've seen at least three smallish Texas deer killed with .223. My boys killed two with my gun stoked with 64 grain Winchester power point. At about 75 yards both times the bullet remained intact and exited the deer. Both deer went less than 20 yards. Personally, I would not use this round for home defense because I would be more concerned with over penetration. I would absolutely use it again for hunting. Very impressive performance and accurate in my gun.

I also helped gut a deer shot at about 25 yards with a mini-14. I don't know what round was used, but I think it was a 55 grain soft point or fmj. This bullet completely fragmented and did not exit. The deer dropped immediately and its chest cavity was a complete mess of bloody jello. With a close range shot (as in home defense situations) a .223 is just plain devastating and effective.

Don't use green tip for HD and get a proven name brand AR; that's my advice and opinion.

Bake
July 18, 2015, 09:49 PM
For home defense, if you can find one, nothing will beat a Model 60 Resin in 45 acp...

Geo_Erudite
July 18, 2015, 10:16 PM
I would go with a 300 blackout sub-sonic load. If you can in your state, suppressor would be optimal. I don't think there is a better home defense setup than that. Granted I know of no non-AR carbine setup like this.

Me? Skip the rifle and use a 20 gauge with #4 buckshot.

Onward Allusion
July 18, 2015, 10:44 PM
I'm not sure if I trust the 5.56's (even with what I've determined to be the best load) ability to stop an attacker as quickly as the SST 7.62x39,

Pretty sure a 5.56 will stop most attacks fairly quickly. Either round would do the job, but the 5.56 will have a lot less recoil. You'll also have a wider selection of ammo in 5.56. Get the right ammo and you don't have to worry about over-penetration for either caliber.

skizzums
July 18, 2015, 10:56 PM
doesnt sound like anyone s going to change your mind on the terminal performance of the .223. but there is miles of difference between "green-tip" fmj and vmax, triple shok, gmx, partitions, BT's......too many to count. all of these bullets leave devastation tissue damage, and at HD distances, the carnage would be unimaginable. mil-spec bullets are not made for SD/HD and any article referencing them would have no bearing on whether the .223 is a suitable protection round when used with proper ammuntion. go watch some gel tests of "green-tip" and then go watch some gel-tests on expanding hollow-point .223's

kilimanjaro
July 18, 2015, 11:02 PM
You can put a Choate stock on your Mini 14 and get a pistol grip for a lot less coin than a new AR will run you.

You can do same with a Mini 30, and an SKS. Be careful with the SKS mods, I think 922 compliance may need looked at.

skizzums
July 18, 2015, 11:32 PM
if one is actually planning to use an sks for HD. there is only one option in my opinion.

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af103/nwalker73/Misc%20Guns/IMG_20140313_003722_zpsad496702.jpg (http://s998.photobucket.com/user/nwalker73/media/Misc%20Guns/IMG_20140313_003722_zpsad496702.jpg.html)
turn your 3 1/2' long gun into a 26" fire-breather

WC145
July 19, 2015, 09:56 AM
You might want to shoot a 5.56 or 7.62x39 inside a building before you choose because they are ridiculously loud. Geo_Erudite's idea of a suppressed AR in 300 Blackout or something similar would be worth considering. My house "long gun" is an FN PS90, it's extremely short and handy, much quieter than short barreled 5.56, and no worries about over penetration with Hornady VMax projectiles. In the near future it will be getting a P90 length barrel with an integral suppressor to keep it the same overall length it is now.

Cbtengr
July 19, 2015, 04:04 PM
I'm of the mind that a rifle used in a home defense situation is (pardon the pun) over kill. Although 5.56/.223 is a pretty good round, its strengths lie at distances beyond the confines of a normal home. The military and police use it because of its rate of fire and the assumption that an armed enemy would be equally armed.
If someones door was kicked down in the middle of the night waking up in time to react is more important than what you will be shooting. keeping in mind also are the "stand your ground" laws and how pumping 10 rounds of .223 into an intruder who might only have a knife might appear to a judge. Maybe a Ruger 10/22 would be just as effective and less expensive.

Model12Win
July 19, 2015, 05:45 PM
I use Hornady TAP 110 grain Urban .308s in my PTR-91 for home defense. Plenty of stopping power, specifically designed to not penetrate any more than the TAP 75 grain .223 loads but with more wounding capability.

Works for me. :cool:

RevolverOcelot
July 19, 2015, 06:51 PM
I use Hornady TAP 110 grain Urban .308s in my PTR-91 for home defense. Plenty of stopping power, specifically designed to not penetrate any more than the TAP 75 grain .223 loads but with more wounding capability.

It may not overpenetrate in the body/gel but what about the event of a miss? I find it hard to believe that a .308 will not keep going through walls/barriers much more than the 5.56.

A pause for the COZ
July 19, 2015, 09:18 PM
Generally I am looking around with a 45acp with a light and laser.

But I do keep a few Carbines as well as a 12 ga available with ammo in easy get range.
Some thing pretty bad has happened if I am toting them though.
What one would depend on what room I have retreated too.

The most likely room has my AR 15 300 Black out and three 30 round mags.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/100_9723_zpswtq921vr.jpg

Other room has a High point 45acp handy and 4 9 round mags.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/100_9562_zpsfaca7393.jpg

Other room has the 12 GA. Son would grab what ever is handy and come and help.

No doubt about it though. A poop storm has just happened if they are being used.

RevolverOcelot
July 20, 2015, 06:03 PM
Actually, caliber isn't really that big a deal if I go with the AR Platform, because I can always get a new caliber upper.

If I could be convinced of the DI AR-15's adequacy in reliability, the rest wouldn't be a concern because I can just get what uppers I want.

Sharkbite
July 20, 2015, 06:21 PM
DI AR's/M4's of all kinds of barrel lengths are used by not only the US mil and SF guys but by a host of other countries as well.

Out of the Ocean...across the desert...thru the jungle. Clean, dirty, they work just fine.

Your misgivings are unfounded with todays guns/ammo. Was there a problem when the system first got introduced??...yep. What was that...55 YEARS AGO?? If there was a problem endemic to the weapon it would not be in such widespread use.

Its 2nd only to the AK in numbers around the world, and i think that has to do more with production cost then anything else.

I would bet if you actually got an AR and ran it, you would become a fan as well

RevolverOcelot
July 20, 2015, 06:40 PM
DI AR's/M4's of all kinds of barrel lengths are used by not only the US mil and SF guys but by a host of other countries as well.

Out of the Ocean...across the desert...thru the jungle. Clean, dirty, they work just fine.

Your misgivings are unfounded with todays guns/ammo. Was there a problem when the system first got introduced??...yep. What was that...55 YEARS AGO?? If there was a problem endemic to the weapon it would not be in such widespread use.

Its 2nd only to the AK in numbers around the world, and i think that has to do more with production cost then anything else.

I would bet if you actually got an AR and ran it, you would become a fan as well


Alright, I think I've been convinced. I'm going to give the AR-15 an honest try. I think I'll keep the mini but get a Colt AR or something. Is there one more recommended than the Colt 6920?

Theohazard
July 20, 2015, 06:50 PM
If I could be convinced of the DI AR-15's adequacy in reliabilityNo offense intended, but that's like saying "if I could be convinced that LeBron James is a good basketball player" or "if I could be convinced that it's a bad idea to drive drunk".

The AR-15 family of firearms is one of the most reliable firearms ever made. Period. Anyone who tries to tell you that they're not "adequatly reliable" simply has no idea what they're talking about.

Here's a good example: I've got a good buddy who has one of the first Daniel Defense rifles made. Like all DD rifles, it's DI. And like many owners of good-quality DI AR-15s, he's never had a single stoppage in his rifle. He decided to buy a SCAR-16, and he loved that rifle, but he had two stoppages in a few thousand rounds with it. For many people, two stoppages in a few thousand rounds isn't that big a deal, but for someone used to quality DI AR-15s it is. So he sold the SCAR.

Theohazard
July 20, 2015, 06:51 PM
Is there one more recommended than the Colt 6920?Sorry, I didn't see your last post before I posted that. Anyway, I'd say the Colt 6920 is the best AR on the market for the price. Colts are extremely well made and extremely reliable.

RevolverOcelot
July 20, 2015, 07:04 PM
I'd say the Colt 6920 is the best AR on the market for the price. Colts are extremely well made and extremely reliable.

I did hear that Colt lost the military contract for the M4/M4A1/M16 within the last couple of years, right? Was it because of quality? Is there a better 16" AR-15 maker?

Kosh75287
July 20, 2015, 07:19 PM
after decades and decades of refinement, there's no rifle I'd rather take to combat than a direct-impingement AR-platform rifle.


I think I'd rather have an FN-FAL or an FN-CAL (if it MUST be .223). Their designers pretty much got it right the first time, not decades later. Ditto the G3and its .223 analog.

There wasn't much wrong with the Ar-18, except we couldn't acquire it from Japan, who was making them at the time.

Sharkbite
July 20, 2015, 08:08 PM
The Military has bought M16/M4's from a couple of makers. Contract cost has more to do with it then anything. Unfortunately, lowest bidder contracting is alive and well.

Colt is a good base gun. Daniel Defense is a top flight maker, but you will spend more $ on one.

The Big D
July 20, 2015, 09:43 PM
but I have doubts about the 5.56. It's generally considered not powerful enough for reliably taking down a 110lbs whitetail, even with good loads. Why is it considered enough for an average-sized human?

Darn good question. LeMay and McNamara never could come up with a satisfactory answer that one either :(

At short range a moderate velocity .30 cal wins every time.

Snyper
July 21, 2015, 12:50 AM
but I have doubts about the 5.56. It's generally considered not powerful enough for reliably taking down a 110lbs whitetail, even with good loads. Why is it considered enough for an average-sized human?

Deer are much tougher than humans and there's no desire to have an exit wound in self defense scenarios as there is in hunting.

30 cal rifles are typically more than anyone needs for home defense

Deaf Smith
July 21, 2015, 01:55 AM
Personally I prefer my M1 Carbine. With JSP ammo it has plenty of power, low blast, low flash, no kick, very good reliability, and low bore axis allows very precise shot placement at close range.

It's also one of the handiest rifles.

Deaf

Theohazard
July 21, 2015, 02:55 AM
after decades and decades of refinement, there's no rifle I'd rather take to combat than a direct-impingement AR-platform rifle.I think I'd rather have an FN-FAL or an FN-CAL (if it MUST be .223).I'm always amazed at the number of people who advocate that they'd rather have a 7.62x51mm rifle in the military than a 5.56. I'm guessing most of those people have never spent a day in a Marine or Army infantry unit and actually had to carry a full combat load. Not only are rifles chambered in 7.62x51mm noticably heavier than rifles chambered in 5.56, but the ammo is twice as heavy. So soldiers and Marines can literally carry double the ammo if they're carrying a 5.56 rifle. That's not insignificant at all. There's a reason why almost every single modern military uses 5.56 or a similar intermediate-powered rifle cartridge.
Their designers pretty much got it right the first time, not decades later.The M16 design was vastly improved within just two years, not decades. The M16A1 went into service in 1967, and it fixed the problems with the original XM16E1 that was prematurely issued in 1965. So all the Internet drivel you hear today about the "unreliability" of the AR-15 is solely based on the two-year stint of the XM16E1 back in 1965 and 1966.

My "decades and decades" comment was referring to the small tweaks that have been made over the years that have further improved an already excellent design, like insulated extractor springs and improved magazine followers.

Brit
July 21, 2015, 03:12 AM
If I had to use a rifle for home defense in our little Townhouse? With a max. range, any which direction of 7m? The M1 carbine in my safe would be it, soft point ammo. Except I have only South Korean 15 round magazines? Flimsy.

My Steyr AUG with the factory magazines, totally reliable, 28" overall length? I think. But without ear protection? No thank you. Suppressed? A thought.

So as my Glock 19 with TruGlo night sights is on the bedside table, or when up and dressed, in a holster, 16 rounds of Ranger 147g HP will have to suffice.

In 1946, the British establishment came out with a select fire rifle, the EM2. A .280 calibre, Bull Pup, that would be a great rifle now. Close to the 6.8 that everybody raves about? Just sayin.

Art Eatman
July 21, 2015, 08:05 AM
Dunno about y'all, but I've "autopsied" a couple of coyotes I killed with a .223. 55-grain soft points. Chest shots, around 75 yards.

Basically, a double-handfull of mushy Yuck. D. E. A. D. Dead. Ruined.

At true "defense" distances of "around the house", hitting the center of mass a time or two is a wondrous instance of psychology. The aggressor's mind is changed from hostility to, "Help me!" if he survives.

The key is hitting that center of mass. Which of the two cartridges in question is a trivial issue as compared to the needed skill and self-discipline in a stressful situation.

mpmax
July 21, 2015, 07:35 PM
Home defense? Carbine in .45acp. Marlin camp carbine, mech tech, Uzi, etc.

DanTSX
July 21, 2015, 09:00 PM
Darn good question. LeMay and McNamara never could come up with a satisfactory answer that one either

Maybe you should ask some of the troops of today who use the 5.56 to good effect, instead of referencing some Geriactric General from the 60's and his buddy, the pencil pusher dweeb.

5.56 is doing a great job killing terrorists and saving the lives of our troops. Leave the old prejudices back in the 70's.

The Big D
July 22, 2015, 07:29 AM
Actually it's doing a mediocre job. It's just that almost no one today has anything to compare it to - very few soldiers today have ever been issued a M14 let alone shot someone with one.

For that matter a small fraction of them have ever tagged a deer.

There is no fundamental physiology difference between humans and similar sized medium game on torso shots. We have slightly lower density long bones, but kill shots rarely pass through a long bone. If a round has poor performance on deer (or would, if it were legal as in the case with M855) then it'll have poor performance on humans too. Both species requires the same CNS disruption or loss of blood pressure before they're stopped.

The reason we have to talk about the mistakes of the 60s is that those mistakes are still being issued today.

Art Eatman
July 22, 2015, 09:01 AM
What the military issues is irrelevant to what I'd choose as a useful round for home-defense. :)

DanTSX
July 23, 2015, 12:01 AM
Good point Art.

I'd add that if a soldier has shot a deer or not matters just as much.

Boncrayon
July 23, 2015, 05:44 PM
Why not a .50 cal, or a 3 1/2 Mag Turkey Cannon....Come on folks...why such a large load of a long gun when a handgun with the right ammo will suffice! I keep hearing of shotgun and .556 with bells and whistles when a 9mm or .45 1911 with Hornady Critical Duty and simple laser will do the job to protect you without lighting up your living room. Why battle-ready long guns in a home salutation when practice at a 7-10 yard practiced range can put down the offender with a hand gun? Really, Folks...just tell us how much power you have and not explain your reasoning in such a home protection situation.

A pause for the COZ
July 23, 2015, 06:18 PM
the 223 is more than a serviceable SD cartridge when used in the right format.

In my opinion along with lots examples.

The 223/5.56 mm round performs best and is very destructive.
When using a 55gr projectile moving above 3000 fps.

Thats why the M16 A1 pushing a 55gr fmj through a 20 inch 1-12 twist barrel
in the 3000+ feet range was so successful.

It was not until they started making the platform more user/ Mission adaptable package that the performance started to slip.

In my opinion the 223 in a carbine is not an effective combination.
Thats why you see the heavier and heavier bullets trying to get some performance out of the M4's

With the carbine length AR's your just not pushing the round fast enough.
Instead of the devastating tumbling action of the 55gr rifle load. Your getting 22 cal sized holes.

I have seen video of a 55gr fmj (ball) load shot from a 20 inch 1-12 rifle penetrate a steel plate.
At the same distance a green tip 62gr steel penetration load shot from a carbine could not penetrate.

So Mr Stoner actually did have the right formula the 1st time. It was not until we started messing with it that the performance suffered.

That is why I went to the 30 cal 300 Black out to cover my Carbine needs and built a 20 inch 1-12 .223 rifle for my 223 work.

With the 223/ 5.56 speed is king.

Thats my story and I built to stick too it.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/100_9798_zpsibnye7zo.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/100_9804_zpsldkhqkqk.jpg

Brotherbadger
July 27, 2015, 03:21 AM
At defense distances, it doesn't matter which of your caliber choices you use. For all practical purposes, they're equal. The deal is to use the firearm with which you are most familiar and most accurate.

Agreed. Also, 223 can easily and reliably take down a 110 lb whitetail, assuming you are doing heart/lung shots and limit to closer range shots. It won't work out to 300 yards, but inside 125 it works fine.

samsmix
July 29, 2015, 01:11 PM
Art Eatman, as usual, has spoken a lot of common sense in this thread...and as usual it has been mostly ignored in favor of everyone's preconceived notions.

The original posted does not have an AR. He might get one but that really is neither here nor there. They ARE great guns...but so is his mini-14! (Even more so if he gets a collapsable stock) Military ball is not a good HD round, but a controlled pair of 45-55gr hollowpoint or poly tip varmint rounds will turn the dirt bag's chest cavity to complete goo at HD distances. The results will not be ambiguous in the least; the damage will be MASSIVE and CATASTROPHIC!

Comparative rifle accuracy (mini vs AR), ball ammo effectiveness, reliability of ARs made 60 years ago, .308/7.62x51 (for urban HD?! Really?)....NONE of this stuff is even relevant to the conversation at hand.

RevolverOcelot, if you want an AR then get a decent one and you really will love it.But if you load up your Mini-14 with good ammo, and wait at the end of the hall with it as opposed to an AR, you are just about as well armed. In an open country military gunfight, no. In a civilian HD shooting, MOST DEFINITELY. To quote Clint Smith, "There isn't any of that stuff I wanna get hit by. I don't need a thousand dollar gun with the most black paint on it to defend my home, I just need to learn to run the gun I have."

SVO
July 29, 2015, 10:08 PM
How about a Model 94 in good ole 30-30?

samsmix
July 31, 2015, 12:46 AM
That's not a horrible choice, buy a bit overpenetrative for the job at hand.

Tikka_shooter
August 5, 2015, 08:07 AM
I live in a forest on 49 acres; so, shot after damage isn't a concern. Maybe if I stood on the roof with a 300?

In other environments, shot after damage and over penetration would be a major concern. If bullets started penetrating the walls of your house; my guess is you'd shoot back. :D

The M4, M16 and the MP5A are so popular with many worldwide Special Operations units is the ergonomics are good.
As the ergonomics suck; the best way to carry an AK is safety off and have the selector where it needs to be.
I own quite a few AKs and ARs in a variety of calibers; I apply Clint Eastwood's limitations to weapons as well as myself.

The unit that fought at Ia Drang fought with the M16 which answers any questions on the subject of combat reliability. As Colonel Moore was old school infantry; his Troopers cleaned their weapons.
Same as any soldier or Vet who has used the M16/M4 in combat; I don't debate what people believe or read online.

Skeets
August 15, 2015, 06:10 AM
Still safe on farm with a Winchester 30M1 Carbine.All I ever had,100% dependable,probably on better health plan than me!Great posts guys.

Pilot
August 15, 2015, 10:25 AM
I recently acquired an USGI M1 Carbine, and have been putting rounds downrange with it to assure reliability. Since home defense carbines are shot indoor, I am sensitive to noise, and muzzle blast, so shooting essentially a hot pistol round is fine for me. I will be using the M1 to supplement my 9MM and .45 pistols. YMMV.

WV_gunner
August 27, 2015, 04:02 AM
For a carbine, I think .45 Colt is best. I used to keep a Rossi Circuit Judge loaded.