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hunt4em
April 29, 2012, 09:39 PM
I am new to the site and really liking it! I have a Remington 700 adl 22-250. My problem is that if I sight it in at 100 yards then move back to 200 yards, it will shoot to the left. If I shoot at 300 yards, it shoots even further to the left. What do you think is causing this?? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Davey
April 30, 2012, 01:10 AM
My understanding of sighting in is to compensate for bullet drop at various distances rather than windage.

Is it possible your barrel is physically damaged? Maybe even bent?

globemaster3
April 30, 2012, 07:09 AM
Welcome to the board!

What kind of ammo are you using? Also, has the gun been in your possession since new? Has it been rebarreled at any time? Do you know the twist rate on the barrel?

Now, let's talk shooting technique. Are you shooting it from a rest or sand bags? How much wind was blowing that day and from what direction in relation to your line of fire?

This will give some basics to begin narrowing down the problem.

Doyle
April 30, 2012, 07:47 AM
It sounds like you have a problem with parallax in your scope. Do some Google searches on parallax and you'll see what I'm talking about. It isn't that your bullets are curving. It is that your point of aim is shifting further left as your distance increases.

Brian Pfleuger
April 30, 2012, 07:55 AM
Quite certain it's a scope problem. As Doyle suggests, your bullet would be flying in a curved path, clearly impossible (left-right anyway).

He is also most likely correct that it's a parallax issue. If not parallax, it is almost certainly scope related.

Exactly what brand and model of scope do you have?

hunt4em
April 30, 2012, 08:07 AM
Thanks guys for replying, I am shooting my own reloads with 50 grain hornady v-max bullets. I bought the gun used, but it hadnt been shot much when I bought it. The throat was in excellent shape, and I have only put around 400 shots or so through it, and everything still looks good on it. I still have the scope that was on it when I bought the gun, its a Simmons Whitetail Classic.

When I first noticed the problem, I changed the rings and bases. It had the see through, so I got regular rings and bases to get the scope closer to the barrel, and I free floated the barrel thinking it might help, but nothing I have tried has worked. I will check into the scope itself to see if thats the problem. Thanks guys!

Brian Pfleuger
April 30, 2012, 08:20 AM
Wait! I just reread your OP...

You're sighting in at 100, left at 200 and more left at 300?

That's a whole different animal.

That's normal. Different powders and bullets group in different places. Completely normal. As long as you like the group size, adjust the scope and be happy.

You said "back to 200", I read it like "return to 200" as if you're accurate at 200 and left at 100 and 300. My bad. ;)

Doyle
April 30, 2012, 08:32 AM
Simmons Whitetail Classic.



Likely source of the problem. The only Simmons I would even think about trusting is the Aetec series. Even those are marginal. I'm not exactly a scope snop, but I won't buy scopes that don't hold up.

Palmetto-Pride
April 30, 2012, 08:43 AM
I would try a different scope. If your looking for a good budget minded scope the Nikon Prostaffs are pretty good for under $200.00

Art Eatman
April 30, 2012, 08:51 AM
I've never had that problem, so I'm having to guess.

Q: How much to the left of the point of aim at 2-00 and 300?

Q: Could it merely be wind drift? A cross wind would likely cause an inch or so of drift at 200 and maybe three or even four inches at 300.

As example with my '06: I was hitting dead on at 100 yards with the wind behind me. At 90 degrees to the "good breeze" and at 500 yards, I was holding two feet of windage in order to center the target.

hunt4em
April 30, 2012, 09:08 AM
When it first started happening I thought it might be a little bit of wind throwing it off, but I have shot that same scenario several times and it is the same exact result every time. If it is dead on at 100 yards, then it will be about 2 inches left at 200 yards, and 4-5 inches left at 300 yards. The further I go back in yardage, the further left it will group. I didnt used to have this problem, it was shooting fine one time, and the next time I shot, it was doing this. I am stumped.

uncyboo
April 30, 2012, 09:26 AM
Are you using the same power setting at all ranges? If you sight in at a lower setting and then crank it up for the longer ones, the POA may not be tracking correctly, common on lower end scopes. I always sight in at 100 with the highest scope setting. That way errors aren't magnified when the scope is cranked.

Striker1
April 30, 2012, 09:39 AM
I'll ask a stupid question...is the scope canted, either in the rings or the rifle by you when you shoot?

mrawesome22
April 30, 2012, 10:04 AM
I'd start with the mounts.

If the scope is canted / (looking down on rifle), it would cause your symptoms.

Sent from my Wildfire S using Tapatalk 2

ndking1126
April 30, 2012, 10:13 AM
I'll ask a stupid question...is the scope canted, either in the rings or the rifle by you when you shoot?

Not a stupid question at all. That was my first thought. 5" at 300 yards would take a noticeable cant, but it definitely could your problem.

dsa1115
April 30, 2012, 10:17 AM
Maybe a left to right crosswind?

homesick
April 30, 2012, 10:22 AM
Hunt4em I shoot a lot of 22-250 as well as other calibers. My present 250 is a Ruger MK II with a 20X Sightron. This rifle shoots sub 1/2"MOA at 100 yds and sub 1" at 200 yds. At 1/2" high at 100 yds. dead on it is about 2" low at 200 Yds and 1/2" to the right. Can't give you 300 yd results as our range does not have that yet. I think this is called ogive if I can explain its the rotation plus the rotation of the bullet. I am not real sure its called ogive thats what I call it.
I didn't see how far left you were shooting at 2 and 3 hundred? Have you tried any different weight bullets to see how they act?

Striker1
April 30, 2012, 10:32 AM
Ogive is actually the curved part of a bullet (projectile).

homesick
April 30, 2012, 11:47 AM
Striker1 I knew ogive wasn't right. My point is a bullet rotates as its sent down range it rotates in a tight circle also. I am sure someone will be able to explain much better them me.

Clifford L. Hughes
April 30, 2012, 12:51 PM
Hunt4em:

When I shot on several Marine Corps rifle teams I established my 200 yard zero from mechanical zero. Mechanical zero is when the peep sight was aligned center in it traversing slot, When I walked on to the line I set my zero and took a wind reading and I move the sight accordingly. At no time did my bullet drift unless I failed to dope the wind correctly. If I were you, I would change scopes. A rifle will only shoot as good as the sights that it wears. I'm not sure of your budget but I would look into a Leupold or a Burris.

Semper Fi.

Gunnery Sergeant
Clifford L, Hughes
USMC Retired

sc928porsche
April 30, 2012, 02:03 PM
If you are not dealing with wind drift, the your problem lies with either the scope (parallax) or with the mounts (not parallel with the bore). There are cures for both.

Brian Pfleuger
April 30, 2012, 02:40 PM
Would help to know exact location of groups at each distance.

Sounds like either wind drift or, more likely, it's slightly though barely noticeably left at 100, twice as much and now very noticeable at 200 and 50% again that much at 300.

Pahoo
April 30, 2012, 02:51 PM
I'll ask a stupid question...is the scope canted, either in the rings or the rifle by you when you shoot?
Not so stupid as first, deal with the practicals before going to the particulars. This would be my first call. Your bullet is tracking the reticles. If canted or clocking, it will always show more at long ranges. .... :rolleyes:


Be Safe !!!

James K
April 30, 2012, 03:22 PM
The rifle is not shooting to the left beyond 100 yards, the rifle ALWAYS shoots to the left. But in sighting in the rifle, the OP adjusted the scope to compensate for the left shooting at 100 yards. But as the range increases, the leftward shooting again becomes evident. A very common situation. Now the problem is to find the problem!! It could be in the scope, the scope mounts, the holes in the receiver, the barrel, the bedding, etc.

A good place to start is to center the scope. Click the crosshairs all the way in one direction. Then all the way back, counting the clicks. Then divide that count by two and bring the scope back that number of clicks. The scope will now be centered. Shoot a group and see what happens. Take it from there.

Jim

Striker1
April 30, 2012, 03:47 PM
Just a question, if he is already zeroed at 100, how will mechanically zeroing the scope help?

hunt4em
April 30, 2012, 05:21 PM
As far as I can tell, the scope isnt canted any, but I did buy some cheap rings and bases, but the problem started before I changed anything. I shot a gallon jug at 300 yards a while back, and I aimed about 5 inches to the right, and hit center of the jug. I have tried shooting it at different scope powers, and its all the same. With my loads, I am usually shooting about a 3 inch group at 300 yards, and they are all left. I ended up sighting it in a little to the right at 100 yards so it wouldnt be so far left at further distances, but I would like for it to all be center. I believe I will get me a new scope and see if thats the problem. Thanks again guys for all the advice:)

Brian Pfleuger
April 30, 2012, 05:36 PM
Well that DOES change things. If you're right of center at 100 it should be impossible, except for wind, to be left at 300 (or any other distance).

The bullet can't be headed right for the first 100 yards and turn left later.

It's got to be either parallax or a scope problem.

The most confusing part to me is that I wouldn't expect either of those things to be consistent.

If the scope was broken I would expect it to be all over.

If its parallax, it would change every time you held your head a little different.

mehavey
April 30, 2012, 05:49 PM
The OP has the scope (or the rings) misaligned on the action.

See the graphic below to understand the geometry involved:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4958248&postcount=9

Brian Pfleuger
April 30, 2012, 06:00 PM
Yeah, but the would be virtually impossible at 100 and 300 yards. A scope so far out of line to be right at 100 and left at 300 would be off by.... miles. I mean, it has to START farther out of line than it is right at 100.

Say it's an inch right at 100. It would have to be an inch off center to STAY an inch off at 300. If its actually shooting right to left, it would have to be over an inch off center at the gun.

25 and 100 is one thing. Much less obvious. 100 and 300, you'd need custom mounts to make it work.

As an example, if my geometry is right, if it's 1/2" right at 100 and 1/2" left at 300, the track is 1/2" left every 100 yards. The scope would have to be an INCH off center on the gun.

tahunua001
April 30, 2012, 06:11 PM
I would say that it's either wind drift or you aren't exactly zeroed. the longer a bullet has to travel with a crosswind the more it drifts. the slower it travels the more it is susceptable to wind so it will drift more between 200 and 300 than it will between 100 and 200.

being off buy half an inch at 100 yards is not bad at all, it is well within MOA and many shooters don't even feel the need to adjust for such a minute difference however that half inch at 100 yards becomes a full inch left and an inch and a half at 300 etc etc.

then there is the possibility of a combination of the two where it is slightly off zero at 100 yards but as the bullet slows down the wind grabs it and that minute miscalculation becomes even more problematic.

Gunplummer
April 30, 2012, 06:13 PM
I have to disagree with some of these thoughts. We shot out to 500 yards and we had different windage and elevation settings for 200, 300(Sometimes) and 500 yards on calm days. A bullet has its own "whip" to it just like an arrow. Changing bullet style may influence this. Using 3 brands of ammo with the same bullet weight may give you tight patterns, but usually up, down, right, left.

hunt4em
April 30, 2012, 08:24 PM
Gunplummer, come to think about it, this all started when I changed from sierra bullets to those v-max bullets. I could no longer find those sierras, so I went with v-max, and I have had the hardest time working up an accurate load with them. I started out with the 55 grain, and my gun DID NOT like those at all, and I have found a so-so load with the 50 grain v-max bullets. I know it sounds kinda crazy, but do you guys think that has anything to do with it? That thought never even crossed my mind, but thats when it all started!

Striker1
April 30, 2012, 08:48 PM
What Sierra bullet were you having success with?

hunt4em
April 30, 2012, 08:56 PM
I was shooting 55 grain spitzer boat tails. I got my most accurate loads out of those bullets, and no one around here carries them anymore.

Striker1
April 30, 2012, 09:00 PM
I've had excellent accuracy out of the SBTs in my .270 also. I just order them on line.

By the way, VMAX are flat based correct?

hunt4em
April 30, 2012, 09:20 PM
Striker, It depends on which grain you go with. If I remember right, the 55 grain are flat based, and the 50 grain are the boattails, and a few others are boattails also.

tahunua001
April 30, 2012, 09:30 PM
going with a different bullet would explain a lot. just a thousandth of an inch difference in diameter, 5 grains difference in weight or just a difference in bullet construction can change bullet path. I shot remington coreloks out of my 243 for years and was always accused of having a flinch because I could not hit what I was aiming at, one day on a whim I bought federal powershoks and inside of half that box I had my rifle zeroed and the very next bullet got me my first deer. some guns just do not like certain ammo.

mehavey
April 30, 2012, 09:32 PM
The geometry does not lie. The scope line-of-sight--whether internal or external--is physically offset
to the left of the bore, and its axis corrected back to the right by ~2moa to converge at 100yd.
But beyond that, things diverge -- and keep diverging -- by that same 2moa

Striker1
April 30, 2012, 09:46 PM
Okay, how can he check it/fix it?

davery25
April 30, 2012, 09:49 PM
mehavey's explanation is probably spot on. Don't bother asking whether the bullet is flat based or boat tailed, within 300 yards/metres it hardly makes a difference, certainly not inches of difference.

What rings are on the rifle? Change them out, alternatively just take the gun to a smith

mehavey
April 30, 2012, 09:53 PM
The problem either the mount point on the receiver, the rings, or the scope

The OP has already changed the rings out (and I assume carefully/loosely allowed both them & the
scope to settle into clean alignment before tightening everything up).

I hate to say it, but change the scope out to ANY other (even cheap) scope and see if the problem
persists. If it does, then it's the physical attachment point on the receiver.

Striker1
April 30, 2012, 10:00 PM
Then why do you suppose he didn't have the problem with the Sierra bullets?

Brian Pfleuger
April 30, 2012, 10:00 PM
I know nothing about the internal optics of a rifle scope but I still say it couldn't be physically out of line.
The scope would have to be physically off the barrel farther than its shooting right at 100.
Maybe, somehow the optics could cause it but I can't see how it could possibly be a mounting issue.
If its 1/2" right at 100 and dead on at 200, the scope would have to be a full inch off the bore.
You could be 1/16" off and be zero at 25 which would make you 1/4" off at 100.
100 and 300 is completely different.
Unless the OP is talking like 1/16" right at 100 and 1/16" left at 300, I say it ain't possible. Even then, it'd have to be an 1/8" off axis.

mehavey
April 30, 2012, 10:28 PM
Gentlemen, the scope and the bore are out of alignment.

That said, are the barrel and the receiver in alignment?
Is the barrel itself straight?

Brian Pfleuger
April 30, 2012, 10:42 PM
Bah!
The OS descriptions are confusing. I can't keep it straight.

The more I look at it the more it sounds completely normal.

If you're 2" left at 200 you SHOULD be 3" left (minimum) at 300. Most people and most guns will be worse than the math minimums.

mehavey
April 30, 2012, 10:48 PM
But he's on at 100
If it's just zeroing error, then he would off to the same side by the same MOA (i.e., ½" left at 50,
1" left at 100, 2" left at 200, 3" left at 300. etc, etc) regardless of range.

Perhaps you have a better idea?

Brian Pfleuger
April 30, 2012, 10:57 PM
I do.

The 100 yard zero, isn't.

The OPs stated number in post 11 make a physical misalignment of the scope and bore impossible, IMO.

Zero at 100 and 2" left at 200 would indicate the scope is 2" off axis.

He could be 1" left at 100, 2" at 200 and 3" at 300. That would be perfectly normal.

I think the groups are too small to be statistically valid, are aberrations and further shooting would prove much more normal groups.

mehavey
April 30, 2012, 11:01 PM
Then "zero" at 300 and bring it back to 100 to check.
By his accounts it would then be right-of-center at the shorter range.
If not, his original zero was off and the problem never existed.

But the OP did say he has wrung this situation out multiple times at multiple ranges and with equipment changeout to no effect.

Striker1
April 30, 2012, 11:05 PM
Just for fun, I would zero on an actual zero target at 200 or 300 and then come back to 100 and see what happens.

And concerning the scope/bases not being in perfect alignment with the bore, is it expected that a factory rifle would be perfectly aligned?

edit...looks like you beat me to it!

mehavey
April 30, 2012, 11:16 PM
Just for grins,...

I suggest the OP get a metal yardstick/straightedge and lay one end alongside the receiver on each side to see if the distance between the straightedge and the end of the barrel are the same left vs right.

bull bob
May 1, 2012, 08:27 AM
I have to agree with meheavy. Sounds like the receiver was not drilled perfectly straight or the barrel is out of alighnment with the receiver. And no it doesn't have to be off by 2". Think about the angles involved. A long range scope base is elevated at one end to allow sighting a rifle in for 1000+ yard shooting. Is that offset measured in inches? No, it is measured in millimeters or thousandths of an inch, normally in minutes of angle. 2 minutes of angle across a 6" long receiver is not much. If the holes that the scope bases are mounted to are off by 20 thousandths, then what would the offset be at 200 yards? Combine that with a change in bullet and possibly velocity, a slight cant of the scope, and maybe a slightly inferior scope and you could have your answer. I would look very closely at how well the scope base mounts align with the barrel.