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Spectre
December 8, 1998, 10:40 AM
A few moments ago, I received an e-mailed reply from a former business contact I have been very friendly with for over a year. This is a female, and several years younger than me. Though poorly stated, her argument is indicative of what hunters often hear.

you have some nerve how could you kill innocent animals.. that isnot nice..You are writing to an animal science major. I don't like you anymore. How would you like it if i bought a big gun and try to kill you???

(my reply)
How would I like it? I would accept it. As an animal science major, I am sure you understand that man has killed off virtually all of the deer's natural predators. As an intelligent, rational type, I'm sure you also understand that any herd animals must have culling to ensure individual strength. You probably also know that there are more deer in America today than there have been since before the Pilgrims landed...

I am as surely a part of the food chain as any other link. Viri and bacteria live in me, and, when I am gone, I will be food for yet more microorganisms. If in the wild, I will be food for physically larger links in the food chain, from vultures, coyotes, and opossums to crayfish, lobster, crab, or fish, depending on locale. I accept this.
I expect any large, predatory animals to eat me if given the chance, and they will. Since I do eat meat, I believe it is the height of personal irresponsibility to not acknowledge where some of my food comes from. I pride myself on my honesty, and I must say I have found this: if one does not have honesty in a relationship, one has nothing. I am sorry if my reply has angered you, but I refuse to even act ashamed for knowing who and what I am. I will not be badgered or vilified for environmentally responsible actions I take in good conscience.

Rob Pincus
December 8, 1998, 12:43 PM
Pretty well said, spectre.

Obviously, My wife and I do a lot of pro-hunting work and occasionaly catch some similar flak.
My response usually depends on the setting. In the case of an Email from an Animal science major I probably would have unloaded a bunch of herd management statistics and questions about disease and starving. I would've pre-empted the "more humane ways" attack by bringing up the cost of such "humane" herd management techniques vs. the vast amount of money raised by hunters and conservation groups that benefit wildlife.
I might even throw out some condescending remarks about school being nice, but why doesn't she hike out into the wilderness next february to look for dead or dying deer in areas where the herds are poorly managed. Then she can sit next to a starving deer that is too weak to run and know that is would be more humane to put the deer out of its misery.

Of course, my wife doesn't let me talk to young women anyway, much less get "friendly" with them....

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-Essayons

Spectre
December 8, 1998, 12:52 PM
A good tact, to be sure, Rob. I was specifically trying to address her comment about it being me, and my feelings re that. As we understand, it is me. And you. We are animals too, and have as much right to participate in the food chain as other animals. What we do environmentally often negatively affects the deer, so why not take positive action as well?

Rob Pincus
December 8, 1998, 01:07 PM
Yeah, allow me to generalize (at the risk of finding out that HH is an anti-hunter, in which case, I will apologize in advance and ask him not to hurt me ;))

The type of guy that is anti-hunting and silly enough to say "what if I got a gun and came after you" isn't usually the type of guy that I would worry about coming after me, if you know what I mean. I never recall having a woman say that to me. So, I usually just kinda laugh. Not that I am a super hero or anything, but the food chain argument that you used is an extension of the survival of the fittest argument. Some days when the fax machine is really humming and the phone won't stop ringing, or some weeks when I have to be in 3 different states, I really start secretly hoping that society does fall on Jan 1st, 2000. It might be nice to trade in my stock portfolio for some real independence and accountability (then I think about my 3 yr old and reality sets back in...). If that did happen, you can be sure that the same anti-hunters that are giving you flak, are either going to become your targets or your dependents. Perhaps, especially in todays Y2K paronoia, that little tid-bit will give them a little better perspective on the situation.

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-Essayons

Spectre
December 8, 1998, 01:56 PM
Roger that, Rob. If you can eat me, bring it on. (Uh...oh, never mind. ;))

I accept my place in the universe...as the baddest SOB in the jungle. If I come back as a deer, okay. If a tiger catches me w/out my .458 or 12 GA, okay. Wussie, bleeding heart socialists? Get real. They let others bleed for them.

Bushwhacker
December 8, 1998, 02:13 PM
Spectre & Rob,
Very well put!!!
I enjoy reading the comments of everyone.
Keep up the good work.
Stay safe.

Kodiac
December 8, 1998, 05:04 PM
Interesting thread here...
This Young Femal friend of yours Spectre, sounds a bit blonde...
"How would you like it if I comitted a felony directed at you?"
Hmmm... I guess I would have responded with this:
"Well, I would welcome the attempt... but as a law of the jungle - I get to defend my self."
Her "I don't like you anymore" shows a real shallow depth there... hunting is much more the act of killing an animal! Hunting is a diminishing cultural activity... She is probabley the type to defend other "exotic" cultures unvolving the use of mind altering chemicals or plants... or "Cultural" behaviors that may be distastful to us unenlightened. Yes hunting is a cultural thing too. Like the American indian fishing rights in the pacific northwest or eskimos hunting seals and whaling... or...
Okay, I'll shut up - you get my drift.

Are you ready for that?

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Kodiac
Kenetic Defense Institute
[email protected]

Spectre
December 8, 1998, 05:10 PM
Actually, Kodiac, I think the problem is that she's from New Jersey! ;)

Her next e-mail to me actually said that I was turning her on. :o Guess all that intelligent discourse won her over? (Wore her down, more probably?)

[This message has been edited by Spectre (edited 12-08-98).]

Rob Pincus
December 8, 1998, 05:42 PM
Okay.. I gotta tell ya, I literally had to read that three times and then keeled over laughing and shaking my head.


now, watch those Jersey comments, or I'll team up with Tom Brown and we'll come find ya.

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-Essayons

Walt Welch
December 8, 1998, 07:03 PM
Gentlemen; good luck using logic, persuasion and statistics with people who have their minds made up based on an emotional reaction.

I think the young lady's reaction was about what you could expect. She obviously has no (at least descernable to me) logic at work in making her decisions and defining her viewpoint.

My ex-wife used to get extremely angry when I would point at the deer outside our house and go 'BAM-bi.' She fed them molasses/alfalfa pellets, put a tub of water and a salt lick out for them.

Then we got landscaping put in. With allegedly deer proof plants. The deer mowed them down. Now, the ex-wife is chasing the deer around the house with a baseball bat.

Logical, correct? Take care, guys, Walt

4V50 Gary
December 9, 1998, 02:44 AM
Walt,

I happen to love deer. I love them so much, I occasionally bring one home to dinner. If your wife needs help, I've got one of those .433 calibre air shotgun that will take one down.

Spectre - your bambi loving associate should study Angel Island, CA where in 1977 it became a perfect application of the Mathusian theory (more than can be supported by habitat). "But you can't hurt Bambi," some cried. Well, professional hunters (lucky b--stards) were brought in to cull the herd. Maybe we should have released a couple of mountain lions on that small island instead. Opps, where did that jogger go?

Spectre
December 9, 1998, 11:31 AM
Now, Rob, don't make promises you won't keep. :) If you ever happen through Atlanta, though, I'd love to meet you, perhaps show you the dojo...

A lot of people tend to say things like "how could you kill Bambi"? Let me count the ways...Ultimately, most of these people are hypocrites. They still eat their burgers and steak, but do not have the intellectual honesty to acknowledge where their food comes from.

In a spiritual sense (all of you fundementalists can disregard), some things must die that others may live. The mere act of living will kill some organisms (you inhale, you ingest, etc). Plants are alive, too. Tom Brown relates that a friend was about to become a vegetarian after visiting a slaughterhouse. Tom told him,"The plants scream just as loudly, if you could hear them." Food for thought.

fal308
December 9, 1998, 12:35 PM
Around here that is the same crowd that also drives to an ecological protest against the use of fossil fuels.

Rob Pincus
December 9, 1998, 12:47 PM
Fal, that is funny and I'm sure it is true.

Spectre, I'll be in Atlanta from Jan 31-Feb 5 for the SHOT show.

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-Essayons

longhair
December 9, 1998, 12:54 PM
ain't it fun! :)

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fiat justitia

chink
December 9, 1998, 02:51 PM
Fal
I hate those people. cuz not only did my drive, they drove suburbans and they didn't even carpool. so each person drove like 10-15 miles at least from their house in suburbia city hall, even further if thye go to the refinaries. I would like to see them get fossil fuels banned just to see them cry when they are stuck in the middle of now where cuz the electric car that is underpowered and underranged died on them.

Bushwhacker
December 9, 1998, 03:58 PM
Hey Spectre,
the next thing you know your friend will e-mail Santa Claus and tell him that she doesn't like him anymore for "enslaving" Rudolph. ;) :)

Rob Pincus
December 9, 1998, 03:58 PM
Hey LH,

Good to see ya. We had a couple LEOs visit the East for the first time last night. It was a good evening....
(I wish you had an Email link)...

Fal,

There is often inconsistancy with fanaticism. Hypocrisy is often a way of life for the extremist.
For example, I am a huge advocate of individual freedoms and accountability, yet I disagree with the legalization of drugs. Some would find this inconsistent. In my own mind I rationalize it, but I recognize that there are hypocritical aspects of my own belief system too.

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-Essayons

John
December 9, 1998, 05:48 PM
It's like the bumper sticker I saw awhile back-- I did not fight my way to the top of the food chain to eat vegetables

Walt Welch
December 9, 1998, 06:14 PM
Gary; easy on that mountain lion vs. the jogger stuff; one was killed (jogger), about 5 miles from my place several years ago.

At about that time, a cougar walked up the road past my driveway and into the Wilderness (2500 acres) which is across the driveway. I was speaking to one of the Park Rangers yesterday, and as it happened, he was the one to take the call from my then wife (I was at work). He still remembered the call clearly: he said, chuckling,'she was pretty upset.'

I ran across a fresh cougar kill (deer) that had not yet been fed upon. Now THAT is one scary feeling, knowing that a pair of yellow eyes is probably intently watching you approach its' larder (where is that .44 Mag when you really need it?). It decided to let me live, fortunately, and I rapidly retreated. Walt

Rob Pincus
December 9, 1998, 06:21 PM
I was planning on a NM cougar hunt in February, but I got the applications for the permits 2 days after the dealine for submission, due to my travel schedule and a zip-code mix-up. Too Bad. The cougar was going to be the RT Glock's second kill.

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-Essayons

Art Eatman
December 9, 1998, 11:58 PM
Yeah, anti-hunters can be weird. One evening at a steakhouse, I made a comment about the next day being "Deer Season Eve". I was immediately attacked (verbally) by a young lady who was incensed at the idea of killing Bambi. I merely asked how a deer was someway more "noble" than the cow we all were eating...

I have occasionally pointed out that as a hunter, I am a "do it yourselfer". Non-hunters merely hire somebody else to do the dirty work for them.

For those who get into the vegetarian shtick and denigrate hunting, I've used this argument: Okay, animate life, by your philosophy, has a higher moral value than inanimate life. Deer or quail (among other animals) have higher moral value than wheat or corn.

Therefore you must believe that a mouse, snake or rat has a higher moral value than a Sequoia or a redwood. Fine. Would you like my recipe for Sequoia-root soup? Redwood tea?

"Ignorance is curable; stupidity is forever."

Best regards, and good hunting!

4V50 Gary
December 10, 1998, 12:38 AM
Walt,

Sorry about my warped sense of humor. It was my misguided perspective on the current state of affairs in my state. Ever since Californians passed a moritorium on hunting cougars, they've been overruning the state and in the process, bagged a couple of joggers. Some were even within the SF Bay Area!

In Northern CA it's even worst. The deer herds have been culled by the cats and half the time you're out there (especially without any dogs), you've got to look over your shoulder for them. I went bowhunting two years ago and came across some tracks which were bigger than my outstretched hand. Boy, did I feel stupid for being without a gun (in CA, you can't possess a gun on your person when you're bowhunting). I seriously questioned my sanity and thought longingly of my 44.

Californians who vote against hunting are ignorant of the ecosystem and the delicate balance which nature sets. They don't want to see any harm befall the gentle woodlands creatures. As mentioned, we've already lost a few people to cats but the voters willl still protect the cat. A few years back, we tried to pass a proposition which would study the impact of hunting mountain lions. We're not talking about legalizing hunting, just a study. Nope. Lost by a landslide.

Gary

Mute
December 10, 1998, 12:33 PM
The anti-hunters (vegatarians included) are hypocrites by nature of their beliefs.

They accuse us of making human life more important than all other life forms. I won't apologize for that. I like to know how that's different from them killing an army of ants or some flies for merely being pests. At least hunters kill for food.

So much for the sanctity of life these people claim to hold. Their so called worship of living things is almost pagan.

chink
December 10, 1998, 05:06 PM
I hate cali. I mean I love the state, and the Weather here in San Jose, but I hate the fact that we have to many people who don't know how to have fun. To many politically correct people who have never been anywhere outside the classroom, the courtroom and the capital building. Our politicians need to get out and experience the world and understand that money and theory don't make the world turn

Spectre
December 10, 1998, 07:53 PM
FM14,

Good one! :)

As pointedly expressed by the cougar stories, I expect to be a link in the chain, even if not at the top! I believe it's part of living a healthy, balanced life...and would like to believe that all forumites attacked would have survived!

Contender
December 11, 1998, 05:23 PM
Spectre, Tell your friend you belong to PETA,you know, People for Eating Tasty Animals.

Byron Quick
December 14, 1998, 07:20 PM
Love it! Think I'd buy that PETA T-shirt!

Cheapo
December 14, 1998, 09:44 PM
I believe in animal rights. An eagle has a right to eat a mouse, or any other animal it can kill.

I am a human, and have the same rights as an animal. I use the animals whose death I cause (including McDonald's cattle) responsibly.

So...no guilt for leather shoes...:-)!!!

Ed Brunner
December 15, 1998, 03:31 AM
I dont hunt any more. Anybody can kill an animal. That is when the problems start-cleaning it-getting it out of the woods etc.

I am ready to make an exception and shoot a table-grade hog real soon.

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Better days to be,

Ed

fal308
December 15, 1998, 09:32 AM
Cheapo
You mean that there is actually beef in those fast food burgers? :)