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RAHatto
May 23, 2007, 02:36 PM
Does anyone know of/where/who makes gas piston AR rifles.
Ok your thinking thats easy and the list is a few off the top of your head but who produces gas piston in .308 and up. I know there are a few makers playing with smaller calibers but I only want .308 and up.If you know the website that would be great. I have searched using AR15.com, google, wickip something, and others. POF is the only larger caliber I have found. Any others or does POF own the market?

RockyMtnTactical
May 23, 2007, 02:41 PM
Why are you limiting yourself to Piston driven only?

RAHatto
May 23, 2007, 03:40 PM
I am fairly familar with standard gas system (not a fan of)and am doing reasearch into gas piston designs. It is fairly hard to find advertised makers of gas piston in larger cal except POF. I know there are a few small caliber piston makers out there but I have less then zero interest in small calibers(dead horse).

PTR 91
May 23, 2007, 03:47 PM
Well if you want something in 308 how about leaving the AR deal and try somthing like a PTR 91 by JLD enterprises. Or how about a Saiga in 308, that's has a gas piston.

kkb
May 23, 2007, 03:59 PM
oops, didn't read the whole post. never mind.

RAHatto
May 23, 2007, 04:19 PM
The easy and short answer is "simplicity"

Jimro
May 23, 2007, 05:16 PM
Contact Cobb manufacturing, see if they can't make you exactly what you want.

But my guess is that you would be just as happy with the performance of a tuned FAL, Saiga, or other proven platform.

Jimro

Gewehr98
May 23, 2007, 08:00 PM
Why are you limiting yourself to Piston driven only?


Because some of us don't like guns that poop where they eat? ;)

tulsamal
May 23, 2007, 08:52 PM
Because some of us don't like guns that poop where they eat?

That expression is an excellent example of how a "sound bite" can stick in your mind and somehow sway mass opinion far more than the facts would actually indicate.

It sounds good. It sounds logical. It's catchy. But I was an armorer in the US Army. First with the 25 ID and then as a Drill Sergeant. I've fired God knows how many thousands of rounds of 5.56mm through M16 A1's and A2's. And they all went bang the first time. They always cycled the next round. The only failures I've ever experienced were with blanks and a BFA.

I watched soldiers have malfunctions. It did happen. But it tended to be something extreme. One soldier at an Air Defense range discovered the sheer joy of putting in a 30 round mag, emptying it full auto, jamming in another one, blasting through it with one trigger pull, repeat. His buddies thought it was funny plus they didn't want to have to clean their rifles. So they kept passing him more loaded mags. After a LOT of full auto, he actually melted his gas tube. It sort of slumped down to one side and no more gas could get through. It was probably the only malfunction I ever saw like that. It would have been darn hard to duplicate in combat because you would have never had that much ammo or the occasion to simply fire it off full auto without worrying about aiming or taking return fire. Yes, a piston in that particular case would have probably kept going.

Maybe, maybe, maybe I can see the utility of the piston in an AR for the military. Just for the super extreme cases of either sustained automatic fire or slovenly soldiers. But for civilians with semis? I couldn't afford the ammo just to waste and I could never achieve that rate of fire. And I clean my rifles. I store them indoors all nice and clean and ready to go. My RRA AR is still waiting for malfunction number one. It wouldn't surprise me whatsoever if it never has one.

Are we supposed to believe that Eugene Stoner had never seen or heard of piston rifles? Come on, it's the older design. He wanted something lighter. Less moving parts. It works.

I can see the sexy "tactical" attraction of an AR with a piston. Maybe I will even succumb and buy one someday just for variety. But I'll be honest with myself and admit it doesn't really matter. I don't "poop where I eat" but it's fine with me to have a rifle that vents gas into the action! It worked for the MAS 49/56 and it works for the AR.

Gregg

Jamie Young
May 23, 2007, 10:10 PM
Give it another year and I bet you'll see one.

I'll have one of the .223 version by the end of the summer. I'm probable going to get the DSA version http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=DSZM4GTC DSA seems to really be getting on the cutting edge with new products and since they are primarily a FAL company, I bet they want to get a .308 AR gas piston variant on the market in the near future.

RAHatto
May 23, 2007, 10:35 PM
I..for the record don't HATE gas impiged AR's they work... well, but I am just researching alternatives. I am overly cautious about some things and like to play devils advocate towards things that will have an altering effect on my way of life.

For the record when I have fired in official groups there has always been a bang-less click or a miss-fed round, a disobedient magazine, and even a locked up bolt. They are from my experience something that never would have actually happened to someone that owned and hunted or used the equipment for anything but firing on the day.

When I was still carrying I took obsessive care/cleanliness of my weapon(s), but I also wiped, cleaned, and shined my ammo at least 1 a month. Obsessive yes. Was I rightfully laughed at, yes did I ever have issues on the line, no.
But I digress..I don't want to get people all riled up. When I buy my rifle rest assured it will be an AR platform (no wiggle room). I am looking at gas pistons as a viable alternative since I am obsessive and cleaning my 357 for 2 or more hours after a couple hours at the range is wearing real thin with the misses. Is it more expensive..Yes do I care not really. I plan to have a very limited gun collection (by choice)so a little more for exactly what I want is worth it to me.
So back to the question Who produces gas piston AR in .308 and up?
BTW tulsamal thanks for the first hand POV

Gewehr98
May 24, 2007, 02:35 PM
I just retired from the military myself after 20 years, and did the M16 thing every year as part of my CATM qualifications. I wasn't humping one in the sand as much as a ground-pounder or Gyrene, especially if I had my issued M1911A1 or M9, but I spent enough time keeping Riyadh and King Fahd sand out of the M16A2 and cleaning it after qualifications to know that it wasn't sooty fairy dust I was cleaning out of the receiver and bolt carrier group. I've also got a Colt Competition HBAR that just plain chokes after only 200-300 rounds if I don't clean it before then. It's been back to Colt once already, and will go again, assuming I don't find one of their management team and insert the gun into an orifice not of their choosing. YMMV, of course, but I am more than just a little interested in the gas-piston variants like the HK-416. I have a pre-'94 Oly Arms lower sitting in the safe waiting to be built into something like that or the ZM-300.

The funny thing is, when I bought an AG-42B Ljungman a few years ago, I figured it would also be a cruddy pig. I was pleasantly surprised that the Ljungman actually stayed quite clean as a gas-impingement gun, even as a pre-Stoner design. Imagine that!

Attribute what you will to "sound bites", but if a spade's a spade...

BTW, I'd wager for every GI on a gun forum who loves the system, you'll find a large number who didn't. I'm of the latter, and knew several armorers in my neck of the DoD woods who weren't too keen on them, either.

Jimro
May 24, 2007, 04:59 PM
I'm a GI who understands the strengths and weakness' of the AR. If you want precision then you can build/buy a very accurate AR. If you want an assault rifle that never jams and goes bang every time, get an AK or other gas piston battle rifle.

Sand and the AR platform do not mix well. Proper maintenance is essential to proper functioning.

Jimro

Gewehr98
May 24, 2007, 05:51 PM
You probably still have those rebuilt slick-side Colt AR-15s in CATM there, with the new M16A2 uppers. I was amazed how they used the vintage lowers, and also how the barrel throats on the training/qualification guns were basically shot out. (Take a look next time you clean the rifles after qualifications)

People don't believe me when I tell them that the Patrick AFB Family Camp RV campground surrounds the firing range on three sides, and that there's a very expensive side of the firing range that sits useless there because the bullet recovery backstop couldn't withstand the rounds it was designed to stop and catch.

Godspeed on your deployment, and come home in one piece. Hope when you get home you don't endure any of those darned hurricanes. I didn't enjoy them when I was there. :(

RAHatto
May 24, 2007, 06:39 PM
Yes half the range sits full of rounds and weeds unused and the other half suffers from mini tornados on the left side (every time I'm there anyway) when ever there is a east wind. They are going to rebuild the unused one into a ?"100 meter"? rifle range from what I remember. It has been a while since I talked with Joe about it. Last time I qualified I was using a modified A1 but 48 out of 50 so I'm ok with it. I cleaned my loaner while the class was going on and got it to decent shape. I checked my mags and swapped them out with useful ones.
For whatever reason Famcamp stays packed 5 months out of the year but they thin out except to the permanent few when deployments are gearing up:rolleyes: I wonder why?
Were moving to Grand Forks ND next month so I am getting all my ducks in a row to buy a rifle (sales tax free) when I get up there. Florida's 6% is rough when your already spending 2 grand.
North Dakota and Montana(first base)share similar wildlife sizes and you cant effectively hunt much in Montana with anything smaller then 6.5.
I am a huge fan of the AR platform being the first of now many rifles I ever fired.
I have always found flaw with the direct feed of gas back into the rifle but I know there are alternatives to the only thing I disliked about the design.
I want an AR rifle. I am seriously considering a piston operated, and I need .308 or bigger. I am just looking for competition for POF in common caliber/magazine .308. Hence this post. Any help anyone? Who produces gas piston AR in .308 ?

dfloomis
May 24, 2007, 07:32 PM
LWRC has one coming out late this summer.