View Full Version : 12GA Rifle From Hell

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January 27, 2006, 03:49 PM
Back visiting here to tell about project a few of us over
on AR did..It is big wildcat called the 12GA From Hell.
First it is a long case we made by putting 12ga size rim
on bmg brass, and straightened case out.Two others put
it in big Borchardt falling block actions, and I put it in
a Savage 210 Bolt action with long heavy barrel and a heavy
stock..I got a hard Dixie Terminator 730 gr slug out at
2700 fps. The Borchardts will do more.Here is picture of our
case next to a regular plastic 12ga case, which by the way
can also be fired in our chambers.Ed Hubel


January 27, 2006, 04:02 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek: So it's a smoothbore or rifle? I ask because of the rifled slug there. Wow. Just wow.

January 27, 2006, 04:23 PM
Firstfreedom--The barrel is rifled, and slug in case in
the pic is just for looks.Slugs used are hardened lead
looking like the old paradox slugs,and banded brass solid
slugs.It could be smooth bore and then we could really
put the zip into Foster slugs.Here is pic of my gun
the savage 210 bolt action.Ed


January 27, 2006, 04:33 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek::eek: :eek: holy #$$%&^%&%$^#$% thats crazy! whats the kick like? and what coud possibly require such a big bullet, i guess if you want a HD gu to the extreme thats what you got.

January 27, 2006, 04:50 PM
730 gr slug out at 2700 fps
Were talking .50 BMG energy out nearing 12,000 ft pounds
The recoil without a muzzle comp has got to be pounding you.
I love what you done.
Its got the potential to become an awesome grizzly slayer with the right slugs..
Holland and Holland double rifles usually sell for around $50,000
A .700 nitro express that they make would cost $100 a round
You got something that rivals an H&H 700 nitro for thousands less.

Varmint Eviscerator
January 27, 2006, 06:36 PM
What savage has a 12GA diameter bolt and is as long as a 50bmg?? I am guessing you made everything from scratch including the barrel?
Please enlighten me!
BTW VERY NICE PROJECT,DOESNT LEAD VAPORIZE/CRUSH due to air resistance past 2000fps? and I thought the 12GA was .768 diameter or around that,bmg is aroun .50 how'd you get them to fit?

January 27, 2006, 06:58 PM
VE-It is a Savage 210 bolt action shotgun, came in 12ga
with light barrel, put on a 12ga heavy Pacnor barrel..
It has a big 3 lug bolthead and pic is below beside
an Enfield bolt for comparision.Action is very long
and I just opened the loading port for longer cases.

12ga is .729 inch
diameter, and we used bmg cases to make a long brass
12ga case,as base of bmg is same as 12ga, so we just
straightened out the case, and put a 12ga size rim on it.
The lead slugs are hardened for high velocity.

expeditionx-bender711-Yes great for grizzly.And only 600 bucks in
the gun in my case.Recoil is easy as barrel is long and gun
is 25lbs, and perfect balance..That most important is the
balance..it has big recoil pad.And we got guys with the
700NE virus that now plan using this to do it.Rim
size for 700NE is same, and 3.5 inch case where ours is 3.87.
700 base is .780,ours is .801. And 700 is loaded to only
35,000 psi the max that our hottest load is.


January 27, 2006, 07:04 PM
you're my new hero.

I'd love a pic of that round next to a 17 HMR! hahaha!!!

I'm not a typical macho big bore chest pounder, but THAT ROCKS!!!

January 27, 2006, 07:47 PM
Years ago, I saw a .50 BMG "Springfield" with a piston shock absorber cut into the stock. Might be worth a look-see. I don't think it was factory stock (so to speak.) :D


January 27, 2006, 07:52 PM
So, where can I get one of these :D?

That thing is awesome! Elephants beware :D!

January 27, 2006, 09:52 PM
Buy a Savage 210 for 400bucks, throw away barrel and plastic stock,get a heavy 12ga barrel Min diameter 1.5 in.
Get hevy stock with big butt to put wt in,
lenthen port, change bolt stop ,and so on.

Now if you want real African rifle quality you can
do one like Rob did, in this picture,with big Borchardt
falling block action.Ed


January 28, 2006, 01:44 AM
Thats another gorgeous shoulder cannon.

Thats just two huge WOWs. Nice work done on both of those.

January 28, 2006, 09:18 PM
BigFun--Here is picture of bmg case with rim on, before
we straighten it out, next to finished case.The
slug in the 12GA FH case is a Dixie 730 gr hard lead.Ed


January 29, 2006, 12:59 AM
Any chance of having someone do this commerically? All we need now is to have some gene splicing company come up with way to clone theropods and sauropods from the Jurassic and Cretacious for some real insane Nugent style hunting :D and not that Spielberg feel good crap. Always bothered me that no one ever brought sufficient firepower on that damned island. Sorry to get of track there.

January 29, 2006, 03:40 AM
How do you remove the neck without tearing the brass? Thats a whole quater inch of diameter stretching. And how are you adding the rim?

I can't reload, my current living situation prevents that. I really wish I could, but there would be problems with my roommates. Kind of like the reason I got my gun safe; one day, one of them said, "If I hear someone breaking into my car, and you aren't here, I'll get one of your shotguns and go get them.":eek: :eek: :eek:

If there was someone that made a bunch of these, either model, at a reasonable price (1200 to 1500?) and sold some ammo, could do a lot of business. Maybe 900 or so if the customer provided the Savage gun... You have about what, 900-1k in this, plus time (10-15 hours?) and ammo?

I realld don't have the ability to make of these, but would love to give one a good home. Regular feedings and waterings would be no problem, along with regular excercise.....

January 29, 2006, 05:18 AM
stretching the bmgs neck out would not be that big of a deal as to an earlyer post i know because i load 7mm tcu which is a 7mm bullet in 223 case and beside the 50s brass is huge i am more worried about how much and what kind of powder and the putting that rim on.

January 29, 2006, 02:33 PM
BigFun and Ace--The case is annealed from factory so
first fireforming gets it up to about.650..Then
we anneal again and fireform or use expander to go out to
.729 12ga bore.We put rim on by turning off original
rim downt little less than groove diameter geting 5/8 in
diameter stub .Thread it 5/8 by 24 and screw on a premade
12ga size rim using locktite.Holds the strain of resizing
ok.Now two ways to load cases like these-fast shotgun powders
in amount filling fraction of cases using cards and wads
to fill space to bullet.That's regular shotgun setup, and I
don't do that. I use 90% plus fill of real slow powders,
mostly surplus, at 3 bucks a lb. Example, Can put in 320 gr of
WC860 with 730 gr slug for 2400 fps.Ed

January 30, 2006, 05:01 PM
Isn't that a little light? I would think that you'd want to be pushing 1200gr slugs to get better sectional density.

I don't think .730 @ 730 grains would be adequate for elephant.


January 30, 2006, 05:08 PM
I've had a perpetual state of erectile solidification every since I saw this thread last week. That's more than 4 hours, so should I call a doctor? :D

January 30, 2006, 07:25 PM
Soak it in ice water:eek:

January 30, 2006, 08:12 PM
Any chance of having someone do this commerically?

+100 sig226man.

Have you tested to see what kind of penetration you can get with that?

January 30, 2006, 08:14 PM
Also, has anyone checked the legallity of this? I thought that anything with a rifled barrel and bore larger than .50 was a D.D.

January 30, 2006, 08:26 PM
Hehe, 12 gauge is considered a "sporting" gun. I don't see any legal wrongdoing here.

January 30, 2006, 08:28 PM
tiny--The 730 lead isn't for elephant.Good for bear and
lion at 2400.Good for deer and hogs..Super great for the big bore club target shoots..Rob has 2000gr banded solid he plans on
taking to africa. Bridger makes any wt of banded brass
solids you need.
Nicotine--Shotguns are exempt, even rifled.Otherwise there'd
be 20 million lawbreakers who use rifled shotguns or rifled chokes.As far commercial who knows. There are those who are doing it themselves,we can find them the brass, and there are those who now seeing the Savage 210, are doing the
nitro express calibers,Just found a stock blank for guy doing a

January 30, 2006, 11:02 PM
Love all the stuff you do with big guns. One of theses days I'll have to take on a project like one of your 4 bores.

January 31, 2006, 05:58 PM
Here is picture of case in an action that we may in
the future build a wider heavier version of to use.
It is a Martini Greener 12 ga action.They are the best
looking of the old time actions.Ed.


February 1, 2006, 06:21 PM
I am aware of the shotgun exempt thing, but if a comercial variant was created and only in slugs, I was worried that it might not be classified as a shotgun and become illegal.

February 1, 2006, 07:12 PM
Being 12 gauge alone wont protect it from anti-gun scrutiny.
The anti-gun representatives in Congress will use the NFA law and the GCA law to look for ways to restrict anything they think is a good candidate for political attack. Congressmen know they can get Brownie points with their party if they step up to the plate and swing at political issues. If they make a home run their party often holds them as heros. Antigun people held Clinton as a hero for pushing and signing the Assult Weapon Ban, puting a stop to all thoses Chinese semiauto imports, and stopping the Chinese ammo imports.
The 12 gauge street sweeper type guns were banned because of the NFA law allowing the Government to restrict guns that happen to have a bore diameter over .50 caliber. It was determined to be unsporting. Unsporting has been used to often to try to eliminate politically incorrect guns like semiauto rifles AR-15s, AK's, and others. Nothing is safe from political attack.
A new extended 12 gauge shell could just as well be attacked like the .50 BMG has been. The .500 S&W magnum became an immediate target not very long after it came out. The antis tried to make the argument that it can penetrate body armor. Someone could easily say this new extended 12 gauge round is capable of blowing up buses, air planes, and killing innocent children 20 miles away. When your dealing with political liers like Feinstein, Boxer, Kennedy, Clinton, and others anything is possible. Anyone can make some kind of law preventing the regular public from having guns. But, as of right now this new 12 gauge creation is safe. Its legal until otherwise.

On another note, I do think this new cartridge has great potential for shot loads too. I wonder how many 00 buck balls can be loaded and shot at maybe 1200 fps.

February 1, 2006, 07:56 PM
That is awesome!!!! How do they do for accuracy? What kind of trajectory do they have?

Oh! You gotta get some video of that thing going off and post it!

February 1, 2006, 09:56 PM
Wowzer....:eek: Im impressed

February 1, 2006, 11:22 PM
That is why we set it up to do regular shotshells.
We have millions of slug guns out there for deer, bear,
hog shooting ,and they because of rifling, aren't
for shot patterning.I bet if some lib tried to shut them
down, hunters, NRA,GOA,etc would chew em a new butthole.
Just the thought of rifled shotgun having to pay 200 buck
tax, would really lose libs their elections..
And as far as buckshot goes 20 of them at 16-1800 fps,
is what I expect to do..Haven't shot for groups as that is
for better weather.Ed.

February 1, 2006, 11:45 PM
Those libs are crafty devils sometimes. If they tried to attack a new caliber cartridge they try and avoid pitfalls There was too few .50 BMG owners in California to stop the .50 BMG ban they passed.
If the new cartridge you have was called for example the .12 gauge Hubel Ultra Magnum, the libs would work out a deal to attack only your cartridge by name and spare the regular 12 gauge shells from the attack. They wouldnt have the political power (yet and hopefully never will) to battle the regular 12 gauge (too established). That would be political suicide.

February 1, 2006, 11:49 PM
Hey now, why would it need a name just for them to attack?

We already have 12ga in 2 3/4, 3, and 3 1/2; why not a 12ga 5 3/4?

:D :D

It does sounds remarkably standardized.....

February 2, 2006, 01:08 AM
Yeah, that could work too.

February 2, 2006, 01:23 AM
00 buck 53.8 grains each
20 shot balls = 1076 grains
30 shot balls = 1614 grains

If it was a smooth bore, 20 to 30 shot balls would make a really interesting load.

February 2, 2006, 01:40 AM
In our case it would the 3 3/4..A bunch of us are going to
seeif we can get ATf to just put out a list case types and
gun types for over 50cal, an official list, so that all
inand out of government willknow that cartridge
big bores that aren't in automatics and
don't use explosive projectiles are legal for hunting
where allowed and target shooting.(There are big bore clubs)
An official publicized list, like the list of powder storage
and shipping rules in reloading manuals.That would get
all in and out of gov on same wave length, and get the
grey areas gone so antis can't pick away.Now bach to our
project,here is pic showing cases with 3 different lead
slugs, and a case with old rim off and threaded for rims
in picture.Ed


February 2, 2006, 02:18 AM
This reminds me about that 10 Gauge shotgun that is at a local store.:cool:

February 2, 2006, 09:29 AM
WOW! That's all I can say for now. :D josh

February 2, 2006, 10:13 AM
nice work truely creative

February 2, 2006, 11:02 AM
Heheh - different strokes for different folks. Keep at it! :cool: :cool:

February 3, 2006, 06:14 PM
I love to see what a Hornady SST plastic tip 300 grain 12 gauge slug could do out of that cartridge. Maybe like 4000 fps and around 10,000 lbs of energy. That should be quite flat shooting. I read of someone that used the regular SST loading from hornady and stated he got 2 inch groups at 100 yards. The extra speed may or may not help accuracy.

February 3, 2006, 06:21 PM
12ga 3 3/4?

That sounds like the next logical step in the evolution of the 12ga. Perfectly reasonable. :D

February 3, 2006, 06:21 PM
One word...

February 4, 2006, 07:25 PM
We got a 3/4 oz or 327 gr Barnes sabot up to 3900.
A long 22cal fletchette would work in smoothbore like
their big brothers in M60.Ed.

February 4, 2006, 08:10 PM
A 300+ grain slug moving that fast would likely explode a human torso.

February 4, 2006, 09:27 PM
Those libs are crafty devils sometimes. If they tried to attack a new caliber cartridge they try and avoid pitfalls There was too few .50 BMG owners in California to stop the .50 BMG ban they passed.
Thats because they are a bunch of Comunists pinko's.

Dude thats an awesome rifle congrats. You should pitch that to Barret maybe they would make it a production piece. Then I could own one too!:)

February 5, 2006, 11:27 AM
Whitefeather--The costs of it in a Barrett is
twice what you could do it in that beautiful
Borchardt falling block.. Being rimmed the falling block,
and break actions are what we designed it for.Ed.

February 6, 2006, 05:19 PM
Here is picture of the Savage bolt holding case,and top lug is up toward camera in pic. Lower left lug was extended
to hold shell along with the extractor on the
opposite side and the top lug extension. .Lower right lug is opposite also.Ed


February 7, 2006, 03:14 AM
Looks like you turned those cases on a lathe.....

How well do they fit in standard reloading presses?


February 7, 2006, 12:56 PM
tINY--The only lathe work was putting rims on
the bmg cases. They do look nice don't they.
And then we fireformed them out straight.
They are too long for regular press, we use
an Ammomaster with BMG rods and top for 1.5 inch
dies. Got some 1.5 in Hollywood 12ga dies.Ed.

February 8, 2006, 06:36 PM
Nice how all the dimmensions worked out that way.


February 8, 2006, 10:42 PM
tINY--It took a little experimenting to get it
figured out to put rim on easy and we still didn't
know well rim would take the forces of reloading
and extraction after firing, until we built guns and
tried them out.And one of my cases fired 33 times,
and Rob's a fairly high pressures and no problems,
makes us very pleased with results..of course the secret
is that we get huge power, without super high pressures that
makes cases want to stick and extract hard.Cases
kinda fall out after firing.Ed.

February 11, 2006, 10:01 PM
A lot of 12ga guns are marked 12ga and the length 2 3/4,
3, 3 1/2 on the barrel, so I recommend and did mine
as 12 GA 3 3/4 FH..I found a long plastic shotcup
that holds 2 oz of buckshot and 2.5 oz of bird shot.
Try it out in a couple weeks.Just fill case 60%
with my slow powder, set in shotcup, pour in shot, and put
a 12ga wad on top, as they fit tight.Using cup so
that shot won't lead the rifling.Ed.

February 12, 2006, 03:36 AM
Why not name it the Hubel 12? Or the .729 Hubel Thumpenblitzer :p

February 12, 2006, 12:37 PM
Cobray--The cartridge was Rob's idea, and he named it.
I just helped figure out how to do it. I have hairier
wildcat 700HE(Hubel Express) that I will have going soon,
hopefully make me half as famous as Elmer.Ed.

February 15, 2006, 01:37 AM
Fired a shotcup full of 18 buckshot,and used a 16ga wad
over shot in the cup.Case 2/3 full of powder.With
rifling and wad had a 3 ft pattern at 25 ft, good redneck
defense load.Your a redneck when your bigbore guns
are singleshot and your safari car is double


February 16, 2006, 01:54 PM
Dude, thats an awesome project. :eek:

I've got a question, whats the twist rate on the barrel?

Have you had any problems shooting the vastly different bullet weights out of the same barrel? :confused:

February 16, 2006, 05:51 PM
CypherNinja--Twist is 1 to 20 and will stabilize
real heavy(1500gr plus) bullets.The different bullets
and/or sabots would have to be sighted in individually.
If I hunt deer,hogs, or bear I sight it for the 730gr
hard cast Dixie slugs at 2400 fps. Sabots are good but
hard to get and cost more.If used with shot I get
smooth barrel.Ed.

February 16, 2006, 06:33 PM
hunt deer? wow!! big deer? i gues you want to be able to take them down even if you miss and hit the ground around them?:D

February 16, 2006, 06:56 PM
lol Any shot with that thing is a kill shot! Just aim it in the deer's general direction! It may have already been asked, but what's the recoil like on that bad boy?

February 19, 2006, 05:24 AM
Recoil not bad, about like a ten lb 458 Lott
And it can be loaded down a little if the critters
are 200 lbs, instead of 1200 like a grizz..Ed.

February 20, 2006, 10:36 PM
here is pic of the case that was fired 36 times,
sectioned..No thinning to be seen by eye or measured with
calipers.Brass at our pressure will do couple hundred
firings at least..Ed


February 24, 2006, 12:28 AM
Here is picture that shows what us crazies will do to
make wildcats--The short die does bottom of cases and it is made from a 12ga hollywood die cut off--long one does top of case
and it is a cutdown 700NE mouth belling die..I rework taper and inside of dies with the cylinder hone as shown in pic..
The rest of the 700NE dies I cut up to make my 700HE cases.Ed


February 25, 2006, 03:34 PM
CypherNinja--Twist is 1 to 20 and will stabilize
real heavy(1500gr plus) bullets.The different bullets
and/or sabots would have to be sighted in individually.
If I hunt deer,hogs, or bear I sight it for the 730gr
hard cast Dixie slugs at 2400 fps. Sabots are good but
hard to get and cost more.If used with shot I get
smooth barrel.Ed.

Just to increase my own knowledge a little:

Since the sabotted slugs are smaller than the bore (excluding the sabot) their length is a bit longer than their weight would imply, correct? Meaning, they would stabilize in a barrel with a twist rate closer to what would be needed for, say, those 730gr slugs, right?

Did I get that right? The length of the projectile matters more than the weight in determining the necessary twist rate?

Please excuse this poor n00b. :D There're no rifle ranges near me so I know alot more about pistols than rifles. Barrel twist isn't a huge subject amongst the pistol community, I guess. :D

EDIT: I hope I can get to doing as much wildcatting as you someday. :D You rock, dude.

February 25, 2006, 09:18 PM
CypherNinja--that is correct.The bullet in the
sabot is 50 cal, and stabilizes same as the 730gr.
In fact that twist would stabilize longer ones also.
Most rifled shotgun barrels are much slower than ours,
and still stabilize those sabots fine, as reported by
hunters who shoot good groups with them..Ed.

February 28, 2006, 11:19 AM
CypherNinja--Karl inAUS has great idea.Build heavy double,
with one barrel rifled and other smooth.Ed.

February 28, 2006, 05:37 PM
Sweet. :D You should make one in 900HE. :D

You make that from straightened 20mm brass, right? What 20mm cartridge are you using? :cool:

I've always considered making a 90ish caliber 4-bore a definate "before I die" project. Unfortunately, I don't even have any machine shop equipment yet. :(


February 28, 2006, 06:14 PM
Can I squirrel hunt with it?
I figure one shot will shoot down the tree and I just need to catch the squirrel.

Really, awesome gun, great work!

February 28, 2006, 07:24 PM
CypherNinja-When we do big break actions, single or double,
it will be 4 bore rimmed case that we make from 20mm
Vulcan brass.My 900 when I get to it, will be
on bolt action. It is belted and made from 20mm Hispano
Suiza brass.My 700 is third in pic and 900HE is 4th.Ed.


February 28, 2006, 07:37 PM
:cool: :cool: :cool:

Thats awesome. I'm going back to the gunsmithing forum to learn some more now. :cool:

February 28, 2006, 11:08 PM
kymasabe-At least you would have a stopper if the whole
herd of squirrels charged.....That high powered
buckshot load should do it.Ed

March 2, 2006, 09:15 AM
any interest in building 1 to sell?

March 3, 2006, 12:41 AM
No. I don't do fancy enough work, so I am
not licensed smith. Only do my own and
wildcat testing and developement.Which I
never have time incidently to try all
my screwy ideas.Ed.

March 4, 2006, 11:36 PM
Here is pictureof a heavy double we are checking specs
on to see if it would work for 12GA FH.Ed


March 7, 2006, 03:12 AM
One party who got a bunch of cases is going to set it up
on a bolt action AR50 upper.Interesting concept.Ed

March 8, 2006, 09:08 PM
One guy wants to use Savage for 700NE.
Here is picture of 700NE in Savage loading port.Ed.


March 11, 2006, 12:50 AM
Here is comparison picture of big cartridges-
1st 700NE- 2nd 12GA FH- 3rd 700HE- Ed.


March 11, 2006, 01:22 AM
your my hero.
how does one get started in the buisness of making really realy huge caliber rifles?

March 12, 2006, 01:31 AM
Do you have any plans to make a large sized bird gun (smooth bore).

I am thinking about a killer goose gun here.

Daniel BOON
March 12, 2006, 06:42 PM
I believe somebody is kidding........

March 12, 2006, 08:45 PM
Cssspecs--Yes we want to set up smooth bore,2 oz shot,
as we have lots of geese also.And good for heavy
buckshot loads also.Ed

March 15, 2006, 09:25 PM
Here is picture of our cases and regular brass 12ga case
showing how much stronger ours is. Ours in pic is the one fired 36 times, Also the regular cases in whatever gun fired in
was expanded so much it wouldn't go into bottom of sizing die.Ed.


March 18, 2006, 08:12 PM
Did more checking on Encore at gunstoredid some measuring. They will work with a longer and
a real heavy barrel and a weighted thumbhole
buttstock.And long barrel to get weight and get the blast away from shooter. If I did one I'd make it 20
pounds at least. they will handle moderate pressure
with heavy barrel, muzzle same size as breech, so
that it will hold rifle type loadings.barrel would have to
be alloy barrel like big bore ones we have on Savage.Ed.

March 23, 2006, 08:31 PM
Check on 10ga and 12ga NEF Ultra Slug guns. Barrels are
large diameter, but not alloy. I think use barrel breech
section for a monoblock and put in long heavy 12ga alloy
barrel, and treat the monoblock to higher strength. Use a
weighted thumbhole buttstock and with heavy barrel get weight
up to 16-20 lbs.Being break action and large cartridge,
barrel should be 32+ inches.Ed

March 23, 2006, 10:40 PM
Outragous to say the least! :eek:

March 24, 2006, 05:31 AM
I want a contender chambered in that cartridge! With a 10'' barrel.:D

March 25, 2006, 01:14 AM
Moloch--That would be interesting to shoot, and
it would be your undoing unless you hung big weight on the barrel.Build one in big revolver would be better to get weight needed....Ed.

March 25, 2006, 08:40 PM
So, your interested in hunting rabbits I see! :rolleyes:

March 27, 2006, 12:30 PM
TPAW-- it should handle charging rabbits. I may find a
smoothbore, see if good for geese with a 2 1/2 oz
load and good velocity.Ed.

March 30, 2006, 11:31 PM
We tested a 870 gr hard, cast slug that Greg
Sappington makes. Got it to 2300 fps at moderate
pressures. Lightened it with hollowpoint got it to
2500 plus, with no leading. Here is picture of three with
one in a case.Ed.


April 1, 2006, 01:35 AM
Looking great, Ed. Keep up the good work. I'm interested in seeing what you keep developing.


April 4, 2006, 12:19 AM
Had a question about my cost per shot--
For me using 5 buck per lb surplus powder,
hard slug 70 cents, primer 24 cents,
adds up to $1.15 per shot.
Using 20 buck, canister brand name
powder makes it $1.75. Not bad considering the
power we are getting.Ed

April 5, 2006, 08:29 PM
that is absolutely amazing. i need to shoot one of those cannons one of these days. but im with Moloch, lets do it pistol style. im pretty sure i can dodge quick. keep up the great work!

see what the DEagle boys have to say when you show up with this at the pistol range....

April 9, 2006, 03:01 PM
Well there are folks who have made 12 ga pistols.
I am out in country with range so I don't bother
anyone. The muzzle blast would really bring the
proceedings at a populated range to a halt, for
a while. Ed.

April 9, 2006, 03:23 PM
stop it you guys, you're making me ooze myself here :cool:

April 11, 2006, 09:44 PM
Here's 12ga built on big pistol.Looks like he's using
2 3/4 inch brass cases. Ed


April 16, 2006, 12:54 AM
This picture of original Savage and the heavy barrel
that I put on it shows extra weight and length.
The action is shown in the heavy maple stock I used.
The original was light plastic stock.Ed


April 17, 2006, 08:12 PM
Anyone needing a case or 2 with bullet, to look at
or collect let me know.I got 50 left I don't need.
10 bucks each including going to PO and shipping.Ed

April 17, 2006, 09:52 PM
With Hubel on TFL, I may have to retire my jersey: (bowing down) "I'm not worthy...I'm not worthy." :)

April 20, 2006, 05:44 PM
First Freedom-With that many posts your doing fine.
I will never get a tenth as many posts as my interests
are very narrow. Back to 12ga..I took
Bridger 750 gr solid banded hollowbase bullet
and shortened the nose. Actually made a slightly rounded
nose solid of 500 gr. With hollowbase it was still
a decent length, at one inch.I got it over
2800 fps, at my moderate pressures.Just doing a little
experimenting. Everyone got designs and wants
their ideas for slugs tested, so we do it.Ed.

April 22, 2006, 10:45 PM
Here is picture of the original Bridger 750 gr banded solid
flat nose. 2nd is a semi-spitzer 640grI made from it, long range
capable(for vicious p-dogs). 3rd is a shortened round nose 500gr
I made from first one.And a Foster slug to compare with.
The 3rd one is mentioned in test above.Ed

April 28, 2006, 07:10 PM
Here is picture of a brass slug that Lefteris from
Greece is developing.It is .629 and uses sabot to take
it up to .729 12ga size. He will get a few to me to
test for speed, and due to design they also work good
in smooth bores.Ed


April 30, 2006, 06:30 PM
That's pretty nifty. I assume the shape is to affect the balance? Does that hole throught the center have any positive effect?

May 1, 2006, 03:02 PM
The hole lets air through to reduce turbulance and drag, thus giving it a better performance in flight.Hollowbase makes it work for smoothbores.Ed

May 2, 2006, 01:45 PM
Sweet. I bet its got some interesting terminal ballistics.

May 5, 2006, 11:43 PM
We will have a few here to test in few weeks,
with sabots that Lefteris also makes.Ed

May 6, 2006, 01:07 AM
Well, whatever floats your boat, I guess. Wouldn't be one for me.

May 8, 2006, 04:00 PM
Alot of fellows in shotgun only hunting areas are real
interested in this project, to get them better range and

May 11, 2006, 01:33 AM
Measured the sabot for the 3/4 oz Barnes
that Federal loads,and will also hold the 500 S&W bullets
out there and the lightest 505 bullets.The 3/4 oz Barnes
is .500 diameter. 505 fits pretty good also.Amazing all the stuff you can put together for our cartridge.Ed.

May 13, 2006, 01:31 AM
More sabot research using the 12ga 50 cal sabot that was in Barnes 3/4 oz load.The front section of a 50 bmg bore rider
bullet, it is 2nd in picture in the sabot fits sabot. It
is 470 grains, really streamlined.And
you can buy them by the ton, and just cut off the back
portion that is .510 diameter, and that leaves front part for a .500 dia bullet, a good spitzer,
1.5 inches long..Good for armor plated chucks??
First in picture is original
sabot with Barnes 3/4 oz hollowpoint slug...3rd is the 900gr 600NE slug in my sabot made
from heavy shotcup. Shot it at 2300 fps. 4th on the miniature digital scale is an older Barnes
.580 cal saboted slug expanded, it's 435gr. Ed.


May 27, 2006, 08:49 PM
Shot a 610 grain hollowpoint Dixie hard
slug into 6 gallon sealed pail of water.
Going 2800 fps, and real big hollowpoint.
First pic is pail with crimped on top.
Pail full and has filler spout capped.
Second pic,impact with water atomising,
and pail blowing apart.In the next small
fraction of a second is third after impact
with shelf cleared, the hyrostatic pressure
down, has bent top of steel frame shelf.
Same blast put jug pieces all over.
Got to get a 15 gallon one. Behind
you see my wood bundle backstop...Ed




Varmint Eviscerator
May 27, 2006, 09:15 PM
WOW:eek: :D COOL!!! Wish I had a big gun like that, dont even have a CF:p

May 31, 2006, 01:49 AM
Here is long view of exploding pail.Ed


June 5, 2006, 08:18 AM
OH, i gotcha, its not so much a shotgun as a magic 5-gal bucket-be-gone stick. i still want one

June 25, 2006, 07:56 PM
I picked up a 12ga NEF Ultra Slug gun.24 in shorty barrel.
Added weight and thumbhole stock.
Gun weighted to 15 lbs so
far. I got 600gr hard slug to
1650-1700 so far, and shoots easy.
Got 1 1/2 inch thick pad.Working up different
loads.Should get over 2000.
Cases eject easy,no resizing needed
on bottom half of case,action opens easy,
no evidence of binding.Started case 3.2 inch,
settled on case length of 3.15-- Chamber being
full size max 12ga size expands top half of case
more than my minimum chamber in Savage does,
so little more effort needed to size.Our case, though many times stronger than regular
12ga cases is thinner at mouth, so that is
why I used tight chamber on Savage.Still
can't get used to mickey mouse short barrel.
Anyone know of a genius who could
make long alloy barrel with pivot mounted?
Cases can be 3 inches on up to
our length, and work.Ed


June 25, 2006, 08:21 PM
not so much a shotgun as a magic 5-gal bucket-be-gone stick

That's what I was thinking... "Buh-Bye, Bucket!" :)

So that NEF is just bored out to your 12 ga from hell size, or just using 3.5 mag-length brass?

The Guy
June 25, 2006, 08:49 PM
Yuo know, usually I read the first entry in a long thread, then skip through it and mentally block out the whinning B.S. and look for any nuggets of info that can be found.

This one has been very different. I read EVERY SINGLE WORD. This whole thing is unbeliveable, with the exception of being completely real. The work of genius.:D

I cannot put my feelings of WOWNESS into words, so I will simply say;

June 26, 2006, 03:03 AM
We are using NEF chamber as is for now, and just
shortened our case from 3.85 to 3.15 inches.
Case still holds 225 gr ball powder.
Nef slug gun is labeled 3 inch chamber.It could be lengthened
out with reamer to fit our full length case.Ed.

Tom Matiska
June 26, 2006, 09:51 AM
My understaning of the H&R/NEF slug gun is that it is the shotgun frame, and is the weakest of their various frames. They will not rebarrel it to a rifle caliber, but will rebarrel the rifle offering to a slug. If your going to do some heavy experimenting, you may want to consdier a high power centerfire, and get it rebarreled, or start with a Huntsman combo that includes a slug barrel on a rifle action.


June 26, 2006, 10:14 AM
Tom-We have checked with NEF and checked action
The Ultra slug 10-12 ga frame is investment cast like
their larger caliber rifle frames, and heat treated
to increase strength.It is SB2 action for heavier shotgun
loads. Only it has larger diameter firing
pin.It checks as hard as my Savage action.And barrel
is stronger than mild steel barrels, with hammer
forged rifling.And our strong case gripping sides of chamber
when firing holds 40% of the thrust against breech.
Paper and plastic doesn't. You can see difference in metal if you look inside the frames for regular NEF shotguns
and Ultra frame.Ed

Tom Matiska
June 26, 2006, 12:14 PM
I should have figured that you would have checked. Your experiments are giving me one more reason to get a slug barrel for my NEF rifle. Not sure what I need it for, but I know I want it.

July 1, 2006, 12:27 AM
We got 600 gr slug to 2000 fps in NEF.Used ball
powder load. Case length of maximum 3.07 works.
Anyone using our style case should also put in adapter
for shotgun primer. Save a lot of work
beefing up hammer speed and strength.Ed

July 5, 2006, 07:54 AM
Savage is going great. Using little faster ball powder got
600 gr hard slug to 3000 fps, 12,000 ft lbs.
New supply of hard slugs comming. I think 14000 ft
lbs possible. Ed

July 7, 2006, 09:07 PM
For you fellows down under, Scott Wardle is having a bunch of rims and cases with 12ga rims made and will make them
for others in need.Ed.

July 7, 2006, 09:28 PM
Egads! I gotta build me one of these!

July 9, 2006, 11:43 PM
We call it a Paradox gun. Using the word gun denotes
a cannon like quality.In a little while I will have a bunch
12ga rim pieces to supply those who can tke them and
thread the case themselves.Ed

July 12, 2006, 11:11 PM
Being some guns need to much work
to fire bmg primers, it easier to
do the following with adapter bushings.
Here is picture of cases for primer
comparisons.1st is regular bmg
primer. 2nd is adapted to a shotgun primer.
3rd is adapted to large rifle primer.
Of the 2 adaptations, large rifle is
easier to do, just ream out pocket, thread in adapter, but adapting shotgun primer
you have to deepen the original primer
pocket a little, then thread and screw in
a bushing.These two primers give about
100 fps less than bmg primer.Ed.


July 12, 2006, 11:12 PM
I so love that gun............

July 12, 2006, 11:43 PM
Ed, I know you've heard it before, but it bears repeating:

You're my hero.

Anthony Terry
July 13, 2006, 12:26 AM
thats awesome!...simply awesome!! i want to try a .20 cal bullet with a necked down .220 swift case. call it a 20-220. think it would work? be a good cal.? i know it would be super fast!:) dude, great job on the cannon, youve created a monster!!

July 13, 2006, 01:41 AM
I always wondered about the over 50 cal rule and shotgun slugs.

You have blurred that even more in my mind.

I love that "gun"


July 13, 2006, 10:02 AM
tINY- As per Title 18 GCA, Sec 921, shotguns
are exempt. Ed

July 13, 2006, 10:21 AM
I know it's been said, but: WOW-E-FREAKIN'-WOW!!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek:

July 15, 2006, 02:30 PM
Shot savage with 600 gr at 3250. That case
needed a little resizing on base, getting pressures up around 40k. Cases still extract
and Savage is ok, just bellers harder.
Like standing next to an 88.Ed

July 15, 2006, 03:09 PM
:D :D :D :D :D /mops the drool puddle off the floor.

If any of you plan to take it big game hunting?

July 15, 2006, 04:21 PM
Did you say you were also planning a 4Bore in the future. I remember seeing a 4ga shotgun in an old general store when I was very small. I will never forget how HUGE that thing looked. I really like your 12ga project and would absolutely LOVE to see you do a 4ga.

July 15, 2006, 09:50 PM
Awsome!!! I bow to your greatness really outstanding what kind of groups are you getting and at what range?

July 18, 2006, 07:39 AM
WE may deer hunt with it.Maybe put on smooth bore
and get some hairy goose loads set up also.

We are doing a 4bore as soon as bareel guy gets
set up to turn out barrels. Ed.

July 20, 2006, 10:55 PM
Testing NEF with short case, and stick powders.
215 gr of RL-25 got 600gr slug over 1700,
and cases eject easy. Gun still tight.Ed

July 24, 2006, 08:41 PM
Testing Savage with long case-Got 2550 with
320gr WC-855H special ball.730 gr slug.
Same slug,
300gr of RL-25 got 2400. 300 gr of RL-22
got 2800. 280 gr of W-760 ball got 2900.
Will hold more 760, but pressures around 40k on last
two loads mentioned.Savage extracts easy,
bellers like a tank gun.Ed

July 24, 2006, 09:19 PM
We call it a Paradox gun

You could call it the Paris Gun - it should reach Paris, Texas from Dallas.

Shot savage with 600 gr at 3250.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

July 28, 2006, 11:13 PM
Been asked about 3 inch versions of our case. I don't have
any to spare. Just the few I am testing NEF with.
But box of ten is only $60 plus shipping from
Rocky Mtn Cartridge, with thick bases and set up for
3 inch chambers.Ed

July 31, 2006, 05:04 PM
Shot NEF with the RL-25 load, 600 gr.Got 3
shots in 4 inches at 50 yds, with aperture sights and my bad eyes.Got barrel extension
made and will get it on in next couple weeks.
NEF and Original Sav barrel have same twist and grooves, so I am putting heavy part of
left over barrel to good use.I hate shorty barrels.Ed

August 3, 2006, 09:30 AM
We are having a group buy of 1000 gr soft jacketed
bullets for 12ga from Hawk. $2.10 each.Contact
me for details.Need order of 1000 total for them to
make dies and start.Got commitment for 400
already.Let me know if interested.Ed.

August 8, 2006, 08:44 AM
We have a replica of big ole 12ga 1887 levergun coming to
test cases in.It is modern forged steel heatreated
to high strength for hairy loads. Ed

August 13, 2006, 10:13 PM
We got recoil now-Got a 1050 gr
Bridger over 2200 fps in the Savage.
I took the hollow base 750 gr Bridgers
made for me, and wedged in .500 caliber
slugs(I took out of 12ga sabot)in the base.
Added 300 gr. I was going to melt lead and put in,
but this was easier about 5 seconds,
after 15 seconds shortening nose on grinder
of .500 slug.Ed

August 24, 2006, 11:11 AM
Compared to this mines pussycat.
Rob shot a few 1000 grain Bridgers at 3250 fps
and he said he couldn't go any higher as recoil
was "severe". His Borchardt is 24 lbs, and can take
any pressure you could load for it and still
hang on. Cartridges of this size really gets
the juices flowing at over 23,000 ft lbs..Ed

August 24, 2006, 01:50 PM
So, do you guys actually try to hit something, or just go for bragging rights?

Who can take the most recoil?


August 30, 2006, 12:54 AM
Rob can put shots all about touching at 50 yds with his.
We just do this for fun. Rob will hunt with his in
Africa, I plan on taking mine to the big bore club shoots
around the country.Ed

September 3, 2006, 04:55 AM
We got 1887 12ga levergun here to test. Has 2 & 3/4
inch chamber and we will test with our cases cut back and
with Rocky Mtn cases.Here is pic.Neat gun.Ed


September 5, 2006, 01:13 AM
Early testing with 1887, got 600 gr over 1600 in short
barrel. Long barre would be 2000 fps more, which we plan on doing.Used our case cut back to 2.45 inches, same as crimped plastic case, so it will feed from mag. Ed

September 5, 2006, 04:00 AM
My interest is loading some 730 gr.Dixie Slugs I have for a Rem. 870 pump for Alaska raft gun. Loaded to just 1200 fps. This takes only about 42-44 gr. of Blue Dot, in 20 inch barrel. And according to Dixie, equals the Paradox rifle loads of yesterday in Africa, which did the job on Elephants. But, the plastic roll crimped rounds just don't look like the brass ones I see here. I'm thinking about those Rocky Mountain 2 7/8" brass cases. Now, what would I use to crimp the Dixie slugs into those???? Will the freebore of the 3" chamber Hastings Barrel I have, work OK with shorter 2 7/8" shell? And, would the proposed Jacketed Hawk bullets work with the standard 12 ga. rifling?? As I remember, shotguns of this type are limited to about 10-11,000 psi? I'm thinking that 1000 gr. bullet might be a pressure problem, in the Remington pump. Oh, and what plastic wad cup makes good sabot for .620 Nitro Express bullets?

September 6, 2006, 12:45 AM
The TC 12ga muzzle loading shotcups are what I used
for 600NE slugs. Beveled sides bullet base to set them into
cup ok. They aren't real tight fit, and accuracy won't
be the best.Using Rocky Mtn cases, that freebore won't matter.
If 2 7/8 cases feed from magazine your ok.
May have to cut it back as I think 3 inch chamber guns have
plastic cases 2 3/4 inches when crimped.As for crimping,
our cases have enough tension in the neck to make a
tight fit on slug.Then run mouth into die to close
the brass a little tighter. And I have the front corner of case rounded on the front edge to give
smooth feeding.

The 1000 gr slugs may not stabilize if twist is too slow. My savage is 1 to 20, and would work.Pressure would be a problem in load developement in guns of Rem,Mossberg,etc pump
action types.That is why 730gr Dixie is nice.Ed

September 6, 2006, 03:15 AM
TC? is that Thompson Center, do you slit them?

Dave, at Rocky Mt. seems to be very concerned about my chamber measurement as to selling me brass, and wants me to send him a casting measurement of my Hastings chamber. I can't believe the length or diameter is that critical, with straight wall, rimmed low pressure. He also contends his brass does not take to crimping. When you say run into die, what die?? I would think regular shotgun dies would not press brass against bullet tight enough for the recoil they have to stand in the magazine tube of a pump, without actually crimping into one of the grooves on bullet. Wonder if a Mec sizer tool could squeeze em enough?? Dave believes putting the slug inside brass case with glued wad over it is the correct loading, but I think that squared off sharp brass wouldn't chamber as easy as the rounded lead. And I might as well save my money and just load in plastic if that is true. After all, part of this exercise is to have a round that looks like it's for a mean rifle :-) How are your loads for the Chinese 1885 replica holding up under recoil in it's tube with the Dixie Terminator slug? That's still a smooth bore isn't it? Was that 600gr. in the 1887 a saboted round or something else?

September 6, 2006, 12:20 PM
Just talked to RCBS and Magtech both said 12ga. dies for brass shells are on the way by fall. And these will put a roll crimp on shells. Will fit Rockchucker with 7/8-14 bushing removed. So, now I need a good sabot for a .620NE Hawk bullet.................Perhaps a regular 12 Ga. shot cup with an extra teflon wrap from BP .010, to make it tighter in bore?????

September 6, 2006, 11:35 PM
180Pilot- Those shotcups are slit to start with.
Maybe Rocky Mtn wants to make sure that your chamber isn't short
as with brass it could raise pressures.If you have
a set of inside mikes you could also measure where the
forcing cone starts.I found an old set of 1.5 inch thread
big Hollywood 12ga dies.Mine has no trouble holding slugs
against recoil.It's smoothbore with cylinder bore.
The 600 gr is a hardened hollowbase Dixie slug.I plan on one
with a longer heavy rifled barrel, hate short barrels.
In the TC shotcup the 600NE slug perhaps could be paper
patched tighter.If we can find a supply of 50 cal sabots, like used in Federal Barnes saboted 12ga loads, we could
use the front half of surplus 50 cal borerider bullets,
shown in picture next to barnes saboted copper slug.
Third in picture is Asquare 600NE in sabot.Ed


September 7, 2006, 12:00 AM
I only have 50 Dixie 730gr. Terminators left, and James Gates told me he's not selling them any longer.. I'm thinking of machining an old Lee hand loader die to so the bullet can pass into the top passage and let the crimping ring swage the lip of a Magtech brass case into the grease groove as I squeeze it in a vise or drill press ram. But, then when these Dixies are gone?????? I have to come up with another hard lead bullet. Hows the workmanship on that Norinco 1887. It looks stronger then a modern pump for sure. I called Barnes about those Sabots, no luck they won't sell em.

Esquire M Busterbury
September 7, 2006, 12:49 AM
I just had a crazy idea...Imagine a magazine of your stuff in a saiga 12GA. Might take a little 'customizing' but the end result would knock your socks off (along with your most of your innards).

September 7, 2006, 12:01 PM

Cheap Lee foster slug mold 7/8 oz. ($18 with handles), machine off the inside form, so bullet is solid, and about 750 grs. then pour with harder linotype lead. With the .682 diameter, it's designed for a standard trap wad cup for the sabot. So, I don't know about how it will crimp in brass yet, as the Magtechs inside are about a 11ga wad size. I suppose I can just cut the wad cup off to hold bullet, and use 11 ga. Circle Fly nitro cards and wads. Then tight crimp against the plastic cup with bullet protruding.

September 12, 2006, 07:42 PM
Shot 12 double ought buckshot in 1887.
That's 624 grains worth. Used short
2.45 inch case that feeds from magazine.
Used fast ball powder, getting about
1500 fps. Further testing on 600 gr
hardened slug got 1700.That is in short
20 in barrel. Comparing this short case
with the 3.07 inch case I use in NEF there
is an inch difference in length of powder
column so it takes faster powder with
10k more pressure in 87 to get same velocities as in NEF. But the 1887 handles it fine.
It takes as much pressure as my Savage
in its present form.Ed

September 13, 2006, 02:05 AM
HUBEL458, could you post some shot test mediums? I guess the penetration would be at least amazing!:D

September 15, 2006, 10:50 PM
I got Rocky Mtn turned 12ga cases, and am
developing loads. They are 2 7/8 inches
long are for use in NEF and shortened
in 1887. These cases have shotgun
primers. Now these cases with shotgun primers and the two cases of ours we put small primers in don't fire the slow rifle powder loads
reliably,like cases with bmg primers.
Our testing is with 600 hardened Dixie slugs.
So I have and am testing slow shotgun powder and fast rifle.I tested 5 shotgun powders and
the primers fires then ok but the quick peak pressure when loads increased to get velocity
wanted in NEF caused too much case expansion just ahead of the base.Cases ejected ok but
that expansion and resizing will ruin cases
in a couple shots.These cases have a real thick base, and are machined to glass smooth finish.Nice cases.
I now testing AA1680 Ball and it looks good.
Have got loads up to 105 gr with 2 wads in
the Rocky Mtn case, and only .002 expansion
of case ahead of base. Will chrono next and
expect it to get velocity we want in NEF.
Nice thing about this testing is that same loads will work in shortened 87 case by just
using less wad column.Ed

September 18, 2006, 11:32 PM
Testing Rocky Mtn cases in NEF.Got 1850 fps
with 125 gr AA 1680 and 132gr of RE-7.
Cases are 2.9 after 3 firings. AA 1680
load had .135 card wad and 2 1/2 in lubed felt
wads, and RE-7 load had same card and
a 1/2 and a 1/4 lubed wad. Re-7 less dense.
Base expansion ahead of thick base was
.002 to .003 and resized without huge effort.
The base is .300 thick, case has shotgun primers. By the way I put primers in with
bmg primer post. Work good. Now will cut back
some cases for the 87 levergun.About same
loads used in NEF minus wads should do.
Will get little less velocity in 20 in bbl.
But I will have loads figured out for
a bunch of guys here and in Australia.
I also feel now that have I found loads that
get velocity without a huge expansion, to
the turned cases that good low base plastic
will do the same velocity, in strong alloy
barreled guns. Ed

September 20, 2006, 10:40 PM
Good news-First tested 87 levergun.
Using Rocky Mtn cases cut back.Cut case
back to length that feeds from magazine,
2.45 in. That is about max length of any
loaded and crimped 2.75 case.Got 600gr to 1700
with 20 in barrel.120 gr of RE-7.No squib loads.
Cases eject good, expanded a little
ahead of base .003, resize ok.Now the second
good news. Seeing as how these non traditional
powders used in shotgun didn't expand the
turned cases a lot( in our cases made from
bmg brass it took over 10 loads to expand
bases enough to need sizing)............
I figured time to check plastic cases.
Plastic cases took the same load as turned
brass in 1887 and the NEF.120 gr RE-7 in
1887(It wouldn't hold anymore without
a lot of compression) and
140 gr in NEF. Tested Fed,Win,Rem,highbase,
and low base. So you guys out there
who want to get the power that NEF and
1887 are able to deliver use good plastic
cases as a way to get started with
600 gr slugs.You don't need heatreated
for those speeds just hard cast
from wheel wts.. Win AA 2 & 3/4 best for 1887.
It is lowbase and easiest to resize.
To get potential(extra 200 fps) it needs a long barrel.They made long barrels in original.
I used federal 3 inch case in Nef.By the way modern plastic cases have steel bases with
copper plating so they are strong. I tried
one of the fast shotgun powders, that
previously expanded the brass
turned case to much, in plastic cases in
NEF and at 50 gr case was sticking
and had expanded quite a bit, but same
case with 140gr RE-7 popped out easy,
and resized easy.
Never could find use for RE-7 till now.Ed

September 23, 2006, 10:48 PM
In testing plastic cases in NEF and 87 I get
good case life with RE-7 loads. In 87 a Rem case
fired 5 times and it looks good. In NEf a Federal case
fired 6 times and looks good. Of course you can fire them
once or twice and throw away at 3-5 cents each.
I got long heavy barrel ordered for 87 levergun,
and then we will be able to put zip to the slugs.Ed

September 29, 2006, 10:07 PM
I tried one more 1050gr slug in the Savage. Got 2600 fps
and put a slight crack in the stock.Repaired ok for my
lesser loads.Will whittle out a thumbhole stock
for it sometime from one of big blanks I have..Ed.

September 30, 2006, 12:27 AM
I don't understand, are you using a stock Pac-Nor 12 gauge barrel? What modifications, if any, have you made to the made to the barrel? If I might ask, how much did the barrel cost you?

September 30, 2006, 10:41 PM
Cobray- The barrel on savage is a heavy rifled barrel
that was part of a bunch, for us guys building these.
I never asked about their standard 12ga barrel.
Don't know if they had a standard one. Ours
were 2.25 inch rifled blanks from alloy steel like used in
rifles.Them we shaped them to contour on lathe and
threaded them for whatever action used and
put our long case chamber in them.

In testing the 1887 levergun we found that we
won't use AA-1680 with plastic cases. Of my loads
use only RE-7 powder in plastic.Ed

October 5, 2006, 10:32 PM
I'm doing a long chamber in the NEF. Just lengthening
the present 3 inch chamber .The base size of
the regular chamber in NEF is max dimensions,
and in my Savage I have a smaller minimum size.
It wworks grear with long case. So for brass
use in the NEF I honed out a base die bigger to
match NEF size, then it won't over work brass
and it maybe only will need sizing once in every 20 shots, and with the proper fit resizing will be easier.And
my other base die does Savage.Same
top die will do both top halves. Ed

October 6, 2006, 12:29 AM
Thanks, and good luck with the rest of the project!

October 8, 2006, 01:40 AM
Got the NEF chambered for long case. And remember it
has beefed up hammer for bmg primers used in our case.
Got 2500 fps with 600 gr slug, cases eject out real easy,
8300 ft lbs from an NEF with 24 inch barrel.If you set up
NEF to use regular primers adapted to our case or
have Rocky Mtn make a long case you can do it without
a lot of work on the hammer and springs. Just use a
flake shotgun powder as a starter powder above the
primer, which how 700 NE and others are loaded.
Use 10 gr of flake and cut regular load 40 gr and
work up if pressures allow.Ed.

October 12, 2006, 12:02 AM
Good news I got the 1887's hammer beefed up so
it fires the bmg primers in our case.
We will be testing small primers, with starter powder
in plastic and Rocky Mtn cases using RE-12 and 15 powders.
I think they will do better than RE-7 and have
less case expansion.Ed

October 13, 2006, 11:09 PM
Testing the cases,plastic and brass with small
primers and starter. A big find.Can't do
this for reliable ignition if the cases
are ballon head, whether plastic or brass.The cases must have the area between side and
the pprimer at least .200 thick.One reason is
strength. And some plastic I have measured is
only about .060 thick there and the protrusion
in the center for primer is .140 above that
thickness.. So 10 gr of starter powder is
in a groove so to speak and not on top of primer!!! That isn't good. I cut the cases
off at the brass base, poured in 10 gr
of flake powder and saw how it laid
in the case. Nice thing is that a most brands of cases are thick enough, like Win AAs.
So far RE-15 and Blue Dot starter looks
very good, and easy on cases.Velocity as good as RE-7.Will keep testing and I ran out of
RE-12 and the shops have no more, So
it will be RE-15 which I think turning
out best, or RE-7 in smaller

October 16, 2006, 11:36 PM
Got testing done with Rocky Mtn cases,
small primers and 10gr of Blue Dot starter
powder. The small primer and starter powder
take the place of a BMG primer,
that is in our cases cut back shorter
for use in NEF and 1887 levergun.
In NEF 3" Rocky Mtn brass starter powder
and 140 gr of RE-15.Space filled up by card wad and felt wads, amount depending on how you seat
the slug. About 1800 fps.
In the 87 case cut to 2.4" the
length that feeds from mag, 120 gr of RE-15,
starter powder, and one thin .045 card wad.
That's all it holds.Slug loaded flush.
A little over 1600. With long barrels
a couple hundred more for both guns.
Will have plastic RE- 15 results in
couple days.Ed.

October 20, 2006, 12:43 AM
Results of RE-15 testing in plastic cases.
600 gr hardened Dixie slug and 10gr
of Blue dot starter powder in both lengths.
In Nef, 3 inch case is about 2.6 crimped,
and 120 gr RE-15 max load. In 1887, 2.75 inch
cases are about 2.35 crimped, 110 gr RE-15
max load. In 2.75 case thats all it will
hold,with card wad, in longer make up space with wads.The reason I'm checking plastic is so many shotgun reloading guys want more power for big game, and they are set up to
load plastic. With starter powder- a caution.
You must put starter in keeping case level,and the powder put in on top, must be put in slow
so as not to push it away from primer.
Greg Sappington clued me in on another powder that may do the job without starter powder
and be slow enough to get velocities up
without to much pressure. It's IMR SR-4759.
Will have some in couple days.I made contact
to get some of these loads pressure tested,
to check my pressure calculations..Ed.

October 25, 2006, 01:52 AM
Been testing IMR-4759. No ignition problems.
Ignition is instant with regular primers.
Don't need Blue Dot starter powder.
Plastic cases first.600 gr slug. I got a
nice working roll crimper attachment
for drill press for crimping slugs.
That sure makes it easy, and perfect crimp.
In 2 & 3/4 plastic cases with loaded
length of about 2.35 inches got to 80gr.
That's max as you must leave room for
about 3/8 wads or cushion wad. Some cases
may only hold 75 grains max due to
the case construction.Powder is less dense
than RE-15. 1650 plus fps in 24 inch barrel.
In 3 inch cases, loaded length about 2.6
inches, got to 95 grs max, 1800 plus fps.
Some cases may only hold 90 gr due to
case construction. Cushion is
a half inch felt wad or equivalent.
Both lengths start down and go up
if pressures allow. 60 gr short case,70 long.
This powder being faster than RE-15 you must
have a little cushion in the way of felt wads
or plastic cushion wads.With slower RE-15
a card wad works ok as powder started slower.
The powder burning must build pressure
to open crimp with out a high pressure spike.
This bulky powder with reliable ignition
is a winner.Then we tested 3" Rocky Mtn brass
cases, Got max load of 105 gr, and 1900 plus
fps. In few weeks will get the 4759 and RE-15
loads pressure tested.Ed

October 28, 2006, 12:58 AM
Now these loads are for only heavy barreled
steel action guns like the NEF Ultra 12,
or like my Savage with heavy barrel added.
I am getting heavy barrel on the 87 and
it will be long.There are some turn bolt
locking lug pumpguns that would work
with heavy barrels.There is a large
12ga Tula bolt action, but it's not imported.
This week if weather allows(no rain)
I will be firing first test loads of my
700HE long belted case.Ed.

October 31, 2006, 10:45 PM
I want to see this scaled up to take
700HE, 12ga FH, 700NE, 50bmg, Rob's 700, etc,
or even 4bore, 8bore,20mm, 900HE.Anyone else
interested jump in. Were going to give it
a try. Ed.


November 2, 2006, 08:19 PM
Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive,
all alloy steel construction, tested to
about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their
site shows testing at the Italian proof house
of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun
working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that extreme pressure, means that other quality
O/U like Ruger may handle 4759 loads.Ed


November 4, 2006, 05:14 PM
I get questions about whether the IMR 4759
loads aren't to high pressure.Even for NEF.
Well in Nef the REM factory Buckhammer
slug load, expands the base of the case
more than my 90gr, 4759 load. And I get
more speed, in the same kind of
Rem case.And pressure testing will tell us
for sure what we have wrought..Ed.

November 11, 2006, 01:34 AM
am working on
scaling up falling block to handle
700NE, 600Ne. 12ga FH, etc.We wanted to go to bigger 4bore size copy of Wickcliffe
but the short hammer carried on the breech
is too light to fire big primers.and hammer spring can't be made heavier either.So I am
drawing one scaled up to 12ga and 700NE size.
If used with our 12ga FH case will have to have
primer bushing........
SO- today the boy and I set up a mill.
And we along with old machinist guy couple miles away will build a model scaled up with
basic action and breech block designed to work with lever,toggle link. 1.25" barrel thread.

And for the 4bore size falling block, the
HSFB, 1.5 barrel thread, 2' wide action we
will combine a little from Stevens 44 1/2,
Ruger #1, Win 85, Sharps highpower falling
block. The Wickcliff copies a lot in its breech
from the Stevens.We will use a big hammer in the
rear of action with heavy springs,
to fire big primers. Half cock safety.Those
we appropriated from other break actions and
along with trigger and a lever are on
the way from
Gun Parts.Ed.

November 13, 2006, 12:44 AM
Hot Damn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
tested with transducer test ing setup,
in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr, that
I figured with my math would
have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
than our 4759 loads.Ed

November 16, 2006, 01:10 AM
Buckhammer 3 "factory loads are 15k psi.
A 2.75 inch case with 80 gr of 4759, a thin card wad,
a 3/8 cushion lubed felt wad, when crimped is about
2.4 inches long, with 600gr Dixie slug. Based on
pressures recorded in previous post for 3 inch case
and 90gr of 4759, they will run about 13,400 psi,
and work through modern guns.Another load tested with
same bullet, 65gr of 4759, tested at same place
was 11,800 psi and 1640 fps. So you don't have
to put in my max loads, but go down a
little and use in modern guns that
are lighter than NEF so they don't kick so bad.But yet
you can get fairly good energy levels for big game, 3300
to 4000 ft lbs of energy.Ed

November 21, 2006, 10:22 PM
Here is picture of case fired 25 times,
in my 700HE test barrel, to show you
how cases stretch and thinout from
repeated firings of high pressure loads.
You can see where it is thinning just
above the belt. Half of the loads were
high pressure loads. Regular 10,000 ft
lb loads wouldn't stretch cases at all.
This is made from bmg brass like our
12GA FH. 700 is belted and 12ga has rim.Ed


November 26, 2006, 11:32 PM
Some research. Anyone with a Mauser converted
to 12ga shotgun can fire our 4759 loads.
One was the GEHA, other REMO. The locking lug for bolt is the rear safety lug and if you wanted an extra lug do an Ed on the bolt
handle base to make contact between bolt handle and bolt handle recess.They are not long enough
for our full length case, but came with 2 3/4"
chamber and magazine.Were 2 shot large ring
converted military mausers.Studying this gun lead me to the idea that a fancy 12ga with 3" chamber could be made by the same thing that Germans did to the Mauser to make GEHA. Just use
a S&L, Colt Sauer, etc, with rear locking lugs.
Grind out inside diameter of action from rear reciever forward so 12ga case will feed, Rear of bolt will still center ok as lugs and metal
are there. The silver solder combination guide extension to support 12ga case on the left side
of bolt, and put extractor on right side.
Like a Sako or whatever.Face off the recess on front off bolt flat, Put in 12ga barrel with chamfers to clear extractor.A 788 Rem
may work, at least with a 2.75" case.
For repeater action, Open mag
well to hold a single stack of 1 or 2
12ga cases.Fancy gunwrighters badmouthed
the GEHA, but geese hunters just loved them,
as they handled heavy loads fine. Ed.

November 30, 2006, 12:01 AM
I have also found that the rear locking lug
idea will work with an Enfield, and it would
long enough for our long case with little
work. Work long case as singleshot.
Work as single stack repeater with 3" 12ga.
The bolt handle base would be one lug, and is quite large, which would be stronger than
goose guns built same way.The
left locking lug woud get a bite out on
its end if front was bored out to .900,
tp allow feeding of 12ga case.
But I found a way to add extra lug in the back by opening sight recess that is in rear bridge
down through to bolt raceway, mill groove on left for lug to turn into that
opening and mill square recess into bolt and add lug on left.Result 2.5 lugs, with enough
strength to hold 30k plus loads easily.
Ream out front of action. Barrel threads are
as big as Savage, little more than Mauser.
Face off front of bolt flat.Add pin in ejector
cutout to support case opposite extractor.
The original lugs will guide for feeding.
Screw in heavy 12ga rifled barrel.By the way
would work for 700NE,My 700HE by keeping
pressures moderate. Could handle 600Ne,
full pressure. Ed

December 2, 2006, 05:36 PM
Other bolt guns with rear lugs that would be
neat Mauser 12ga GEHA like conversions, would be
Champlin and Golden Eagle 7000. That Champlin
would make a real beautiful 12ga.
Hell to give the French equal time............
now watch out........... you could use
a rear locking MAS.Its bolt is .800", a
tenth of an inch bigger than most, including
mauser, bolt actions. Best damn use for that
gun that man could conjure up.With
its larger bolt a real easy conversion,
and with two rear lugs, it'll handle
Magnum loads fine.Ed

December 9, 2006, 12:20 AM
Here is picture of top part of the
first scale-up model, next to smaller
Wickliffe. It has 12GA FH round in feed
trough. It is aluminum just for a model.
It will handle 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE,
etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on
mill table to do the machining.Next machining
will be the hole and slot down through the
action for breech block and hammer to
slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to
get some tooling.I had none when we set up
vertical mill. Anyone with some surplus long
end mills and R8 tooling, holders,big drills
let me know. I need a bargain on some.Ed.


December 16, 2006, 11:06 PM
Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case
in a temperary chamber to see if
hammer with beefed up spring would fire
bmg primers.I scalloped out the back
of the action so 12ga cases would feed
into the action and temp chamber
They fired ok. Bur the extra stiff spring
makes it hard to cock. We will have to work
on that.The original Wickcliffe
action that we want to scale up is tall
enough so that when breech block is
lowered the block clears the bottom
a 12ga rim when cases slide out of chamber.
So in the scale up we need to just add a
a little width for wider breech block,
and the bigger barrel thread, and keep the
sides thick for strength.Ed

December 20, 2006, 10:47 PM
In response to guys who can't find 4759
we will test powders in the same speed range.
Tested 2 fast stick powders, 4198 and 4227.
Both didn't ignite good with small primers
in plastic cases. Another I plan on trying
VV110, when I find some. It is bulkier
and slight chance may work like 4759. Ed

December 20, 2006, 11:58 PM
Nice....keep it comin'. :)

December 21, 2006, 02:41 AM
would that be a low-wall or a high wall action?

It's gonna be a heavy one in steel.....


December 30, 2006, 11:05 PM
The actions will be highwall for strength.
Fired couple 3.5" cases with 90gr
4759 and 460 grains of buckshot,
14 number 1 buckshot.Fired in nef,
pattern huge due to rifling, even with
shotcup. They were going 2000 fps plus,
and went through 1/8 steel on end of
stand. Ignition perfect, extracted easy.
In smoothbore be a real hairy load.
With three 3.5" plastic cases with
100gr 4759, 600gr slug. Used .135 card wad,
a 1/2" and 1/4" felt wads. 1900+ fps
in 24" NEF barrel, same low pressure as
the 3" cases we pressure tested. I have NEF
chamber lengthened for our longer
brass case. A nice long barrel we'd
have 2050 plus.Ed

January 9, 2007, 06:10 PM
Here is pictures of the breech, lever,
linkage, etc, set up on a block to
get the geometry for the scaleup model working
ok.And setup measurements to make the breech
hole in the action, in right place.Also used
this model to get hammer and trigger set
up to ride on the breech block. With
a strong hammer and trigger in the right
place in the guard.In the pics above you see the pin the
lever pivots on. The actions being bigger
will be wider than the levers;So the space on the
pivot will be taken up by the Ruger
style extractor on the left side and a spacer
on the right side. Spacer also acts as a
breech block stop at the bottom of the
breech travel.So to get block stopped at
right position for the diameter of the case
and feed trough, we adjust spacer size.
Ruger extractors from GP changed
a little bit will do.Ed.



January 16, 2007, 12:43 AM
Found info an a double that would work
for making 12GA FH. It's a Spanish 10 ga
on an 8 ga frame that we think Stoeger and
maybe others imported years ago. It says
No. 6 HG on trigger guard. It is over 2 & 3/4"
across outside of both barrels, chopperlump
barrel pivots, with heavy locking lugs,
and A purdey style third fastener.Top lever.
Barrels are big enough to use as monoblocks
to screw in heavy 12ga barrels, with same size
threads as my Savage and it being a huge action
could handle same loads as the Savage.Like
12-17,000 ft lbs. Ed.

January 23, 2007, 11:59 PM
Here is sectioned action with parts in.
Original action that had defects
that I sectioned down the middle..I
ground out the top to allow case
to set higher, representing a
the taller action that we will
have due to larger diameter cases.
That lever in the picture is the
lever we will use with longer stroke.
Also in the action layout is the
breechblock, hammer, trigger with a
12GA FH in front, all in to check layout.
This lever looks to be easier to fit
and shape to bigger action and stock,
with a good pistolgrip to handle recoil.
Lever shape fits where trigger is better.Ed


January 28, 2007, 04:05 AM
Double pumper 870 big bore. 20 shots.
Be neat with rifled barrels and our
600gr 4759 slugs loads.Fires both or
on at a time. In classifieds on THR. Ed


January 31, 2007, 08:56 PM
I will be posting more research on this thread
about other powders in 12ga plastic cases,about the
12GA FH loads, about scaled up falling blocks, my 700HE long
belted case, and the 28GA FH.Here is picture of
some other cartridges I have with some of mine.
1st= 408CT, 2nd- T-rex necked to 416- 3rd- 600OK
4th- 510HE, 5th-585HE, 6th-700H 3.25, 7th-12GA FH,
8th-700HE. Last most powerful. Ed


February 2, 2007, 05:24 PM
For you big bore collectors.Maybe
get some for collections as the guys
who ordered them, didn't take them.
There is a whole bunch of the Tula 4bore
cases at Rocky Mtn Cartridge Co.
This was the run we had made for the
Tula 4bore pumpgun. It's a 3inch 4bore
case. 20 bucks single case, shipping and all.
The price of brass and machining is twice that.
Here is pic of the gun it went into.Ed


February 2, 2007, 06:08 PM
That bolt configuration looks a lot like the Win1300/FN police pump gun.


February 7, 2007, 01:23 PM
tINY--Yes it is a strong bolt lug system. There are a few around the country that were imported but the ammo never was imported
so they made a run of brass cases for it. And Rocky
Mtn Brass has a big bunch of the 3 inch 4bore cases left
that only fit that gun.Ed,

February 8, 2007, 02:10 PM
If you sold one how much would it cost

February 11, 2007, 07:51 PM
Those libs are crafty devils sometimes. If they tried to attack a new caliber cartridge they try and avoid pitfalls There was too few .50 BMG owners in California to stop the .50 BMG ban they passed.
If the new cartridge you have was called for example the .12 gauge Hubel Ultra Magnum, the libs would work out a deal to attack only your cartridge by name and spare the regular 12 gauge shells from the attack. They wouldnt have the political power (yet and hopefully never will) to battle the regular 12 gauge (too established). That would be political suicide.

Not all liberals are anti-gun. I am a liberal, NRA member and I vote too.

February 12, 2007, 04:51 AM
I propose calling them leftists henceforth. The term liberal to me brings to mind the Founding Fathers, representative democracy, the rule of law and free market economy.

Indrid Cold
February 12, 2007, 03:39 PM
Yeah, I'm the same as Ocraknife. Generally liberal, but NRA member. Not all of us are evil ;)

February 13, 2007, 11:24 PM
TJ--You can get a Tula 4bore case at Rocky
Mountain cartridge. $20 shipping included.
Their # 307-587-9693. I have none left.
I only helped get th e run of brass made
the right size for other guys who have
the guns and there is a big bunch left.
They are head stamped Tula 4 GA
As for the cartridge we call 12GA FH it is
technically and physically labeled on the
barrels 12 GA 3 3/4. They are not going to
bother anymore than with the 12ga 3 1/2"
I don't think..Ed

February 16, 2007, 01:35 AM
Another shotgun/rifle experiment is 28ga FH.
Rocky MTN is making me some
3.25 in 28ga cases. They are good to 38k psi.
That will get 550 gr out at 2500 in
bolt action.A regular 28ga gun may get to
2000, depending on how heavy barrel is.
Get a NEF Ultra cut off leaving breech section
for monoblock and have 28ga rifled barrel
made and screwed or soldered in monoblock.
And being able to hold 38k to match brass,
That would get 2500 fps loads.Ed


Straight Shooter
February 16, 2007, 11:57 PM

February 18, 2007, 03:58 PM
Just out of curiosity, you think you might be able to mount a M102 howitzer to a shoulder stock in the near future? lol.

February 18, 2007, 07:05 PM
Would 30mm cannon do for now? Because Ed has a nifty little 2 bore number made off that brass.(The case nearby is a 30-06)

http://www.hunt101.com/img/474979.jpg (http://www.hunt101.com/?p=474979&c=524&z=1)

February 18, 2007, 09:20 PM
Hi Karl-- Can you send me some warm weather.
Donaldo--We think that our falling block project
will lead to having one big enough for our
4bore and our 2bore Karl mentioned above.Ed

February 19, 2007, 06:06 AM
Well, I guess a 30mm will do if it's all we got to work with...:D

February 22, 2007, 12:41 PM
Tested AA2015- VV N130- Norma200- in plastic cases with small primers. They don't fire
dependably. Sqibs and misfires. Have
VV N110 ordered to test.Have had inquiries
about getting our cases shortened for strength
and they want to put in small primer.
They can be adapted with bushing. Ok but
must use 4759 or fast shotgun powders,
if they are used by themselves. Any slower powders, a fast shotgun starter powder
is needed. My testing shows RE-15 with 10gr
of Blue Dot starter is best of all we tested
in slower powders for shorter cases.Ed

February 27, 2007, 08:29 PM
Here is picture of the first falling block
model of aluminum, with a roughed out
stock to see how it looks. Action is a
rough model. It shoulders nice, and
lever is inlet into pistol grip,
so you can't get banged up
fingers with the big cartridges it is designed
for, like levers that stick down at the


February 28, 2007, 02:34 PM
Looking good.

That comb is gonna hurt a little, though.....


February 28, 2007, 08:07 PM
tINY--Comb is uphill a 1/4" at back from comb front.So
it won't hit the face. The front of comb can also
be whittled back and more curve added to top of
the grip, if a longer tang is wanted for the
tang mounted ladder sights.Ed

March 3, 2007, 08:13 PM
The top rear of action will have a recess to mount
any length tang you need. The lever can be straightened
easily for straight grip stocks also.Ed.

March 5, 2007, 03:01 AM
The comb in that picture looks pretty squared off on top. I like the reverse angle - it makes shooting cannons more comfortable......


March 8, 2007, 12:55 PM
Here is pic of action model with lever open
and the breech block down. Also the action
will have a slot in the rtop rear for a
top tang of whatever length you need.
Can even add a long tang for tang sights.


March 12, 2007, 07:00 PM
Info about the toggle link. It is up inside
the breech block, and quite short,and that
allows the overall height of the action to
be relatively compact, for the huge
cases we plan on using.But yet the top
part of the breechblock is solid for
great strength.Ed

March 17, 2007, 11:27 PM
Asked about using 900 gr saboted bullets in
3" plastic cases in regular barrels with
4759 or RL-15 and starter powder.
With bullets that heavy you'd have too
high of pressures with 4759
for plastic cases. Possibly could do
it with RL-15 and starter
powder in plastic, but only
in heavy barreled like NEF.

But the 600 gr Dixie is still the best for
most uses in plastic.

A NEF and brass RMC cases would handle 900 gr
Saboted bullet with RL-15 and starter powder. Start
at 80 gr Rl-15 and go up if cases don't expand to much to resize.Ed

March 22, 2007, 08:33 PM
Here is pic of a double that I will put
barrels in, monoblock style, using the breech
section for the monoblock. This one will be
for 28GA FH. May get another same size for
my 510HE. I will be able to run full pressures
with these.....I am trying to find a bigger,
heavier one to put 12GA FH in. I want
heavier one so as to run pressures like my
Savage as a minimum.Ed.


March 30, 2007, 10:22 PM
I was looking at an 8ga single on
GB, that looked heavy enough to put
a barrel in for 12ga or 700HE. They
wanted much more than it cost
new.It was a real heavy
Spanish single. If I found an extra,
or the 8ga Tonolini double, I might
leave it 8ga, as I could make a few
cases by reworking 20mm Suzy brass,
can be done without adding rim,which would
be super strong cases like our 12ga FH.Ed

March 31, 2007, 01:36 AM
Can I get it in a revolver?

April 10, 2007, 11:01 PM
Had question about locking RMC cases onto
lead slugs, as they don't crimp into the
grooves well as sharp bend works thick
mouth. First I resize tight and slightly bell
mouth.Insert slugs which take a little pressure.
Then I use a die with slightly more
taper and swage the mouth into slug, like
the fit you get with bottleneck cases.
Same deal works with our long cases made
from BMG brass.Ed

April 12, 2007, 10:55 PM
What do you think you could do with a saboted 750grn .50 caliber bullet in the shorter 2 7/8" Rocky Mtn. cases? If we can get the muzzle energy up to 4,000 fp or so, we might have a good Dangerous Game round (better sectional density than .730 slugs). Hmmmmm, I may have to have my NEF 10ga fitted with the rifled 12ga barrel.

April 14, 2007, 10:07 PM
You could get a 12ga Ultra riled gun like mine
easier than barreling yours.And a saboted 750
gr like that can get to 15-1600 with
our loadings in RMC cases.Which gets 4000
ft lbs. Ed

April 14, 2007, 10:52 PM
Thanks, according to their website, I can get a heavy 12ga slug barrel (rifled) fitted to my frame for $83.

April 15, 2007, 05:31 PM
That is a good price.I wish they'd do the rifled
barrels in 30 inch length. I asked but no

April 21, 2007, 09:03 PM
More VV N-110 testing that we got done.
Starting loads are 60 gr min like 4759 for good
ignition,600gr slug. In 2 & 3/4" plastic full load is 75gr
with card and 1/4" cushion wad.In Nef 24" bbl 1700fps.
In 3" plastic 87gr, card and 3/8" wad, 1800 plus.
In RMC brass case. 100gr, card and 1/2 wad 1900 plus.
All running same safe pressures as 4759 lab tested.
So that is two powders that are slower than shotgun
powders, and much safer to work with for regular
primers, giving at least 20% more velocity. Ed

April 25, 2007, 09:18 PM
Testing soft buckhammer vs hard Dixie. Dixie 600 gr,
Buckhammer from factory hull 640gr with locked onwad,
out of Savage at 2300. Dixie went through 2 -1/8" steel
sheets and on through two more 3 feet away.Buckhammer
went through first two with same round hole, but made
a bunch of dents and one cockeyed hole 3 ft away.Ed

April 29, 2007, 09:39 PM
Along with the two slower than shotgun powders, IMR 4759
and VV N110 that ignite reliably with shotgun primers,
that are easier to load for slugs, in heavy bbl can
get 20% plus more velocity, I've found another. It is
IMR 7383 $3 a lb surplus. Tested plastic 3" cases, perfect ignition with regular primers. 8 types of cases,600gr slug
starting load 100gr. Full load 140gr giving 1800 fps plus
in 24" bbl NEF.With loads halfway between start and full
didn't even have to resize to shoot again.Full load just has
a card wad under slug in 3" plastic.Wad just tight on
charge, as no extreme compression of powder needed.
Will do heavier slugs and
RMC brass cases. Ed

May 2, 2007, 05:04 PM
Tested 7383 with 730gr Dixie, 130gr gets 1650 plus fps
in NEF 24" bbl. Used 3" plastic cases. Same low expansion
as 7383 the 600gr loads and the 4759 lab tested loads.
Ignition perfect, no hesitation.Ed

May 3, 2007, 06:42 PM
Mr. Hubel:

Your commitment to your large-game rifled shotgun cartridges is amazing. I'm toying with the idea of joining your little club here with a NEF 12ga rifled slug gun and the purchase of some brass-cased shot shells.

Am I correct in assuming that I can begin to play in this category with you guys for less than $600 including long gun, additional stock weights/stock replacement/stock recoil pads, brass, powder, slugs, primers and dies?

I currently own no shotguns and no shotshell reloading equipment, however I do own a RockChucker press for handgun and rifle reloading.

What is the longest brass case you have successfully shot from your NEF without modification to the rifle's chamber? What is the optimal slug weight for the NEF's rate of twist? Are you still manufacturing your 12ga FH brass from 50BMG and then cutting them down to fit your NEF, or are you purchasing your brass from Rocky Mountain?

I've read your posts #162 and #163, I just want to make sure and verify I understand them correctly.

May 4, 2007, 12:31 AM
I only got a few brass cases from RMC to test.NEF chamber will take
the 2 & 7/8" RMC brass. It took our case cut back to 3.00".
To cut our case back is too bothersome if you have to adapt to
small primers. Or do a lot of work on the gun to fire big primers.
So RMC is easier. Nef came with 3" chambers and 3" plastic is about 2.6" long when crimped. I found its easier to start with plastic, get a
simple shotgun die for press and a roll crimper, 10 cent 3" cases, and
you can get real hairy loads with 600gr Dixie slugs in 3" using
4759 and VV N110 powder. The 7383 powder also and it can go
with heavier slugs. Nef Ultra slug gun is $225, and with rest of
the stuff, $600 total should do it.Rcbs is supposed to have
dies for regular big presses.Ed

May 4, 2007, 02:59 AM
Yes, after several years of it being a special order item, RCBS has made their 12 gauge dies for brass cases a regular catalogue item.
But you can only use them on single stage presses that have a removable bushing. You have to remove the bushing ala Hornady Lock'n'load adapters.

And, unless they have changed the die set priming is still a problem.
Brass shotgun vases are designed to use large pistol primers.
The primer pockets often are not deep enopugh for rifle primers.

I think one might be better off looking for a used MEC 600 Junior or such.
That way you can use cheaper plastic cases and hotter 209 shotgun primers.
Besides 12 gauge wads are a lot easier to find than 11 gauge wads.

May 5, 2007, 07:15 PM
The RMC cases use a shotgun primer, thus they have
a real thick base. They are not a thin headed,
balloon headed case, and RMC makes sides thick
enough for regular 12ga wads.
But in a break action the 3" plastic cases
with our 4759, VV110, 7383 loads are close to RMC in
power. Can buy a hundred plastic for price of one RMC.
And if I shot RMC in Savage to get more power,
which I could do as far as the firing process,
the expansion above the base, due to being a turned case
would make extraction stiff, causing ectractor to
damage rim. Rcbs set should do RMC easy.Ed

May 19, 2007, 09:19 PM
Finished test of 7383/870 slug in NEF.
Tested 870gr hardened slug with 118gr of
7383, got 1500 plus. Perfect ignition.
Cases ejected easy, and has same base
expansion as the 600 gr slug/140gr 7383.
Will have these pressure/velocity tested
in few weeks.Ed

May 22, 2007, 10:38 AM
We at J.C.Gunsmithing are now making Wickliffe rifles on a custom basis. We are very interested in your project with the Super Magnum action, as there has been a lot of interest in making this into a 50 BMG. Could you send some pictures of how the project is coming along.
We have access to all the parts for Wickliffe rifles, and are having a well known stock company make wood. Maybe a composite stock, or laminate will be on the way.

May 28, 2007, 10:21 PM
We are working on a model yet, will be a while.
Tested a 750 gr banded solid, grooves .009 smaller
than land diameter and got same velocity as
with lead slug weighing the same at same pressure.
Other banded brass slugs with groove debth
same as land raised pressures compared to lead.
Got 2700 easy with 750gr, in long case in Savage.Ed

June 8, 2007, 10:08 AM
The folks at 50 Cal suggested we write up a
piece on the 12GA FH. Interested in what we
did to make hairy cartridge using 50 cal brass
adapted to the 12 gauge shotgun platform.
A job for Rob to do? His wild idea has been
viewed about 400,000 times in the forums
we put it in.Ed

June 11, 2007, 10:46 AM
a 2-3 page report of progress to date with a few pictures would shure be easier to follow.

Make sure to include the terminal effects photos.


June 16, 2007, 09:06 PM
tINY-- A couple more tests on pressure and then I
will post an report in simple outline form.
Anyone got any long 12ga rifled 30" plus
barrels, 1.3" plus diameter. Barrel
guy is shutting down and returning funds.
Been waiting for 12ga heavy barrel for
87 levergun since last summer.Boy it is
hard getting projects done.Ed

June 22, 2007, 11:32 PM
Here is a simple outline of what we've done with
our project we call the 12GA From Hell.
Some folks have asked us to do this.

A. The idea for this and the name was by
Robgunbuilder on the AR forum. We figured out how
to make a long brass case, from BMG brass by
machining rims and the case to screw them on.
We ended up with case after mouth was expanded
that was 3.85" long, with a big BMG primer.

B. Rob put his in a big Borchardt falling block,
a gun that can take full BMG type pressures.
It had firing mechanision that fired primers ok.
Example top load is a 1000gr turned brass slug at
3100 plus fps, and a 7/8oz 12ga sabot at
4300 fps.

C. First of mine in a Savage 210 bolt shotgun with a
heavy rifled 31" barrel. My loads in this were kept
below 35,000 psi. Giving loads of 2700 fps with
a 730 gr hard lead slug, and 3900 with 3/4oz sabot.
Second gun was a NEF Ultra that I lengthened chamber
to take long case. Top loads are 600gr hard slug
at 2500 plus fps.Both Savage and NEF had to have
firing mechanisions beefed up to fire BMG primers.

D. We cut cases back to use in 3" chambers but
all guns have to have beefed up hammers, etc,
to fire the big BMG primers.The BMG primers
fired the slow rifle powders ROB and I
were using very well, no misfires.
So tried 3" RMC brass cases, regular plastic cases,
our cut back cases with primer bushings, all with
smaller regular rifle or shotgun primers,
that regular hammers or firing pins fire ok,
and found out that our slow rifle powder loads
wouldn't fire reliably with small primers.

E. Which lead to much more research. We found that
slow powders could be fired with a 10 gr of a
fast shotgun starter powder, under the slow powder,
using small primers. We also searched for rifle
or pistol powders slower than shotgun powders,
that would fire with small primers and no starter,
that didn't up peak pressure to fast as
we increased loads to increase velocity.
We found three- IMR 4759, VV-N110, and 7383 surplus.
These powders are easier to load for slugs without
the problems of fast shotgun powders pushing up
the peak pressures to quick, as you try to increase
loads to up the velocity. We use a minimum
thickness overpowder wad or other wads in the loads
under the slugs as needed. We had lab test 4759
loads with 600gr slug and pressures were little less
than the magnum REM Buckhammer factory loads, but
we got 400 fps more velocity. The Buckhammer
slug and locked on wad is about 600 gr.Both our tested
loads and Rem loads are 3" plastic.Our loads are for heavy
barreled guns only. IE; all slow powder loads whether
with starter powder or 4759,N110, 7383, heavy barrels,
as the pressure curve is higher down the barrel
and might split regular skinny shotgun barrels.

F. We plan on heavy barrels for testing 1887 Win
leverguns, for Mossberg 695 bolt guns, for
various heavy double shotguns, for various
O/U, for modern alloy guns, etc.We are helping to
design a big falling block for 12ga diameter cases
that is reasonably priced.. We plan on testing
other powders, for use with small primers. We
plan on setting up pressure testing barrel for
the long 3,85" case, to test the whole range
of slow powders and bullet weights, in the future.
We have found heatreated Dixie slugs that can
take super velocities, we found brass slugs with
relieved grooves that run same pressures as lead,
or copper jacketed, at same velocities.
This research and work is super great fun,
we are glad to share.We will get pictures soon of
the muzzle blast with long case, and pics
of pentration tests. Ed

June 29, 2007, 11:10 AM
Found another powder that works with small
primers in plastic and RMC cases.
It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load
levels and velocities as 4759. My earlier
report of 4227 not working was in error
due to what looks like 4198 in a jug
hand labeled 4227 I got in big batch years ago.
Greg told me 4227 worked for him so I got new
jug, and saw the difference from jug I had.

So slower than shotgun, powders that ignite
properly; we have 4759, VV-110, 4227, 7383 surplus,
the latter a slow powder. Ed

July 7, 2007, 09:25 PM
Pressure tested 7383 with heavy powder load.
870 gr with 128 gr of 7383-- All that could
be put in REM plastic and keep length to what
would feed from magazine of a 3" gun,
after it was roll crimped with tool in drillpress.
1513 fps-- 14700 psi. That is a slug 50%
heavier than factory Buckhammer at little
faster speed and at little less pressure.
Ignition perfect, cases fall out.
Love that $3 a lb powder.Ed

July 8, 2007, 04:37 AM
due to what looks like 4198 in a jug
hand labeled 4227 I got in sale years ago.

This is why you should NEVER handle powder that is in anything other than the original factory container.
There are so many powders that look exactly like another that visial inspection is not always accurate. Never trust any gun show or second hand powder unless it's still factory sealed.

With over 150 powders available to todays reloaders you can't be too careful.
With so many having similar names or numbers it's all too easy for someone to get them confused. Just because it has the same number doesn't mean it's the same powder.

And burn rate charts aren't gospel either. They are to be used as a guideline at best. Powder X may burn faster than Powder Z in a .223 case but slower in a .300 Weatherby case.
You may be able to use the exact same charge of Powder A as Powder B in a 9mm case but discover a drastic difference in safe loads when used in a .45 Colt.
With some powders it doesn't matter if you use a standard or a magnum primer.
With other powders it makes a huge difference.
Trail Boss is a good example.
Using a 158gr lead bullet in .38 Special cases, 4.2gr gives you 804fps with a standard primer.
Using that same 158gr lead bullet in .357 Magnum cases, that same 4.2gr gives you 865fps with a magnum primer.
There's a big pressure difference between those two loads.
Normally when using the exact same load in both cases, the .357 Magnum will yeild slightly lower velocities and pressures that what you get with .38 Special brass.

I store my powders in a separate room. I only have one bottle/keg of powder at a time in my loading room. And I never leave powder in my measure when I'm not loading.

July 8, 2007, 12:48 PM
Due to facr I already had done fastest stick powder
there was no danger of overpressure. Anything else would
be slower.Which is what it was. A little slower, but
worse part was it wouldn't ignite properly so it
lost me time testing IMR 4227. I am also testing IMR
4227 next few weeks with heavier than 600 gr slugs.
Now I don't make the jump all the way to heaviest,
but go up in wt a little at a time.Do 730gr-800gr- 870gr.Ed

July 8, 2007, 05:53 PM
My concerns were intended as a general caution for everyone, not as an abmonishment to you. So far your experiments seem to be very prudent.

Actually 4198 should have worked, since it has long been touted as a good powder for large, straightwalled, low pressure cartridges.
Perhaps what you had either wasn't 4198 OR if it was, it hadn't been properly stored. Which is another reason to only use the factory packaging.

Especially plactic. For many years powders were only packaged in metal or cardboard/fiberboard containers. It's only been fairly recently that plastic containers were used for gunpowder.

Because certain plastics, (certain ones, not all) when exposed to certain (there's that word again) powders can, over time, create a reaction that alters the powder and the plastic. And neither is altered for the better.

July 8, 2007, 08:59 PM
I know for sure is 4198 from fairly new can we tested before.
In cases up to as large as my 585HE with base same size range
as 577NE(.660")fired fine with regular primers. Every powder I have
fires in that size case with large rifle primer and mag shotgun primers
are stronger than lg rifle. It's when case diameter goes to .800
like 12ga or my 700HE or 50BMG then regular primers don't
work on most rifle powders, hence a bmg primer that are 3 times
as strong as lg rifle. In 12ga 4198 misfired or had delayed fire(this
one is when you hear hammer strike then a boom), about half
the loads. Very disconcerting and interesting to say the least.
We can use all powders as I related in posts a while back,
in cases with large rifle primers like magteck or other plastic
cases with shotgun primers, or RMC brass with shotgun primers,
if starter powder like Blue Dot is used. About 10 gr. And best
powder for doing that with is in mid range of the chart.
And stick powders only with starter powder.. Ed