Bullpups

[Kodiac]

For some reason these types of rifles are my favorite - may be its genetic... My brothers all love them as well. My next rifle purchase will be Bushmaster's version. I loved the FAMAS, and the SA-80 When I was across the pond I had chance to try both. The Steyer AUG is a dream - spendy as all get out, but probably worth it. I have fired one several times, but haven't decided yet if it worth it to me. I have seen a bullpup'd muzzle loader. It looked pretty cool, but that was about it. Are there any folks here with bullpup exerience? I am interested in hearing about the Bushmaster, as I will have to lose money if it sucks.

[4V50]

Kodiac,

Haven't shot the SA-80 and I heard that they have problems with parts breakage. I recall examining one and it struck me that it was a repackaged Armalite AR-180.

Funny how bull pups haven't caught on in the LE world. You'd think it would be in demand as an entry weapon. Say you couldn't approach with a marked unit and had to drive up in a small mail truck (going postal) where space is at a premium.

I think bullpups are quite viable, especially since we don't do bayonet charges in the civilian world (like the fusiliers, grenadiers and rifle equipped jaegers of the 1700s - I'd run at the sight of cold steel).

[Kodiac]

The AR-180? I am not familiar with it.

The bullpup configuration I think is ideal, even for longer gun. It can give you the option of going with a full length barrel, yet still keep the overall length useable. This would be great in shotgun form for turkey hunters in one season, and goose hunters in another - with the same gun. Mossberg's Bullpuped 500 is a rare find now days... it probably didn't do as well as it could have, if it was better made. It struck me as a bit chintsy.
The question of shortening the barrel and loosing velocity would be moot - instead the question would be "If I dropped in a barrel two inches longer, what would be my ballistic GAIN?"

And you could go the other way, make it SUPER SHORT and then you would have... well things like the FN P-90... which is not bad at all. But imagine a version just a tad bigger, and chambered for .308! That would be very cool.

[Rob Pincus]

The only BP I have is the LAR .50, so there is not much practical opinion about BPs formed by playing with it. I think they look cool, but like I said, no practical experience. I need to put that kit together....

[Kodiac]

Hey, I just read (really - on screen 4) off the Jane's (www.janes.com)newsletter that NORINCO has come out with a new 5.56mm bullpup. This will be interesting as Norinco is the worlds largest arms maker, and they dont make stupid things too often. Remember all the Norinco 1911s... used to be able to pick them up for $200.

Kodiac
(personally hates Norinco)

[This message has been edited by Kodiac (edited 10-22-98).]

[4V50]

With the sharp edges, mediocre polishing and ugly wood, the fit and finish on Norinco is not up to Western standards. I thought the 1911 was a good starting point to build a gun on. Lots of potential.

Those folks over there in the workers' paradise aren't really too accustomed to making guns for commercial purposes. The only guns in the hands of civilians are hunters/woodsmen in Tibet (blackpowder) and maybe Inner Mongolia.

Norinco is use to keeping the PLA (we run over students with tanks) happy and hasn't devoted enough time to learn about Western tastes.

[Kodiac]

Thank HEAVENS China has no capability to project military might this far. They got missiles... but in conventional warfare - they are short legged. Can't fight a war over here unless you can best our NAVY... and they cant do that - not even close.

Oops, this should go down into the Coffee Urn.

[Spectre]

Let me preface my comments with the caveat that I have little personal experience with BP's. I think they are a great idea, but my understanding is...

Smoke blows in your face.
Trigger pulls are mushy.
I'm thinking that sight radius will be reduced as well, though that isn't a major concern of mine.

These things to be balanced against the length advantage, of course.

[fal308]

Being lefthanded I'm not a big fan of bullpups but I'd really like to try an FN 90 or an AUG with a left hand receiver.

[.]

Kodiac,

***response snipped, and moved to Political forum as Bullets vs Bucks***



[This message has been edited by Mykl (edited 10-24-98).]

[4V50]

fal308,

You'd love the bottom ejecting FN P-90. I've shot it both right & left handed, and it works great either way.

[Kodiac]

Guns like the P-90 are going to be the future for sure... as are bullpup designs in general. They have too many advatages to be just a fad. And several of the top BP models have the ability to be set up to eject from either side or the eject out the bottom. This will make the wrong handers happy... more so than bolt action designs that have no adjustment ability for lefties. The factory must make a special rifle just for that reason. I would like to see more Bullpups suitible for hunting rather than just military police duties. Chamber one in 30.06 and you coulld go for ELK...
Take the BLAZER rifle idea and bullpup that concept... Switch out the barrels and you have different calibers. Nifty.
Sight radius is not too much a problem if your a pistol shooter - and you could easily go with a red dot type sight... which are getting better all the time.

[Rob Pincus]

Okay, someone design me a Bullpup BAR in 7mm-08 for deer please. (then we'll build the 7mm RM MAG for the big stuff...)

BTW, anyone know anything about the recoil systmem on the BAR? could you build a Scout style rifle, with a 16-18 inch barrel and a custom made collapsible stock on on of the BAR recievers or does it use the stock in its recoil design?

[Mute]

No question, the BPs are great. I'm still kicking myself for not buying a Steyr AUG back in the 80s before the assault weapons ban. They were going for about $850. STUPID, STUPID, STUPID!!!!!

[4V50]

Rob,

Are you thinking of the civilian Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) developed by M. Vervier?

This sporting gun is gas operated with a rotating bolt head that engages the shoulders of the barrel...sorta like the M16. And like the M16, the BAR's bolt head is attached to a carrier. Unlike the M16 (which is gas impingement operated as opposed to the gas operation of the BAR), the BAR's carrier rides on two parallel action bars which are attached to an intertia piece found underneath the barrel.

Upon firing, gases enter the gas port, filling the gas cylinder. Pressure drives the gas piston against the intertia piece which begins travelling rearward. This compresses the action spring and causes the action bars to travel rearward along the action bar (for want of a better term) path in the receiver. Because the bolt carrier is attached to the action bars, the bolt carrier also travels rearward and in doing so, cams the bolt, unlocking the bolt's multiple heads from the shoulders of the barrel.

As the bolt travels rearward, the extractor pulls the spent case from the chamber. Pressure acting on the base of the case from the ejector ejects the case from the ejection port. The bolt's rearward travel also causes the hammer to rotate back past the cocked position.

Now, pressure from the compressed action spring forces the inertia piece forward. This causes the action bars to begin their forward movement and with it, the bolt carrier assembly.

As the bolt travels forward, the hammer follows until it is arrested by the sear. Pressure from the magazine spring forces the magazine follower up and pushes a cartridge into the feed lips of the magazine. (Funny, but doesn't the rearward travel of the bolt actually pushes the cartridges into the magazine ever so slightly?) The bolt strips the awaiting cartridge from the magazine. As the cartridge rides up and along the breech face of the bolt, it slides beneath the extractor.

The bolt head then reengages the shoulders and the bolt's camming action locks the action; completing the chambering process and the firing cycle.

It is quite unlike the fixed stock FN-FAL or the M1918 BAR or M-16/AR-15 where there is a recoil spring or buffer in the stock.
That said and done, I guess the commercial BAR can be made into a bull pup hunting rifle.

My apologies if there's a mistake on the technical details. I don't have a BAR on hand to examine and I'm not an engineer and corrections are gratefully accepted.

[This message has been edited by 4V50 (edited 10-27-98).]

[Marcus]

I can`t speak for the rifles ,although I`ve drooled over AUG`s for years. But I did own a Mossberg Bullpup,emphasis on did. What a POS! It required three hands to operate and pointed about as well as a piano. It was also very "clunky",but it did look cool! http://www.thefiringline.com/ubb/wink.gif FWIW I think the bullpup concept is a good one if properly executed. Marcus

[4V50]

Speaking of bullpups, the Calico 9mm rifle is the ideal bullpup candidate. Besides being easier to wield in close quarters, it certainly would have been a lot stronger than the flimsy collaspable extruded aluminum stock.
Too bad Calico never made the 12 ga. or the .223 version - in bullpup no less. That would make Sarah and Bill poop in their pants.

[Rob Pincus]

Hey 4V, thanks for all the good info!

That was exactly what I was wondering, whether or not there is part of the recoil system in the stock (AR, Benneli, etc...).

Recently, I have had a "thing" for SBRs, I wonder if I switched this interest over to one in bullpups, would that be cheaper or mmore expensive? Who would you contact ot make a stock like that for a sporting BAR? I used to have freinds at Fajen, but they are gone...

[.]

4V50,

Excellent tech piece. Looks as though I have some serious competition for the Garrulous Guy Award. http://www.thefiringline.com/ubb/wink.gif

Would you consider a collaboration on some operational test and evaluation projects?

[shane]

I have owned a; AUG my personal favorite, FA-MAS nice but, the bullpup for military use make sense. For vehicle deployment, helicopters ect. they also are easier to handle in heavy brush and CQB (city fighting ie buildings) the only real problem in military use is the left/right handed ejection.
Say your rifle is disabled in combat you could pick up a "wrong" sided ejection rifle and damage yourself by eating brass.
I have always wondered why the bullpup designers didn't use bottom ejection. This would solve a very real problem. Another problem is having to expose yourself around corners.
The british have right handed only ejection and rifle training to solve the problem.
One of the people commented on the sight radius. I don't believe that is a valid comment. The FA-MAS has a sight radius approx the same as the M-16.

[shane]

I have some pals in the brit spec ops, and the SA-80 was crap upon inital deployment. It had some of the same problems the M-16 had at first. Also the production facility was being moved. All of the inital problems have been resolved.
My pals wouldn't use the SA at first but now use it happily.
Funny side note the drill and ceremonies had to be rewritten a few times, FAL to bullpup those first drills must have been a site.

[shane]

My uncle had a 9mm calico. I contacted calico and found out they were looking into making a .223 version but the ban went into effect and killed potential sales. The Seals had been field testing the 900(9mm). The idea is low weight and less reloading,100 rounds in gun vs 30 rounds any ?.

[4V50]

Shane is right in that Calico had a .223 on the drawing board. They also had a 12 gauge with the helical magazine. Over 10 years ago I visited the factory in Bakersfield almost and met one of the owner/designer of the gun. Some of the first guns went to Israel.

It was my first visit to a gun factory and I was surprised to learn how much subcontracting took place. One company made the receivers, another the barrels, another the pins, bolt parts, plastic furniture. All Calico really did was drill the receiver (they had about a dozen jigs to drill their receivers) and assemble the parts.

Nice folks. Such is life.

Rob, for your bullpup BAR (Barpuppy), you may want to try a custom stockmaker like HS Precision. They may tackle it for you. They'll have to study existing designs like MGW's aftermarket bullpups.
[This message has been edited by 4V50 (edited 10-28-98).]

[This message has been edited by 4V50 (edited 10-28-98).]

[ShadedDude]

I dont have any experience with a Bullpup...
but I've been eyeing a BP stock for my 10/22!
That would make the ultimate SAW.
Squirrel Assault Wepon.

[fal308]

Just remembered. SAR has a good article on the FN P90 in Aug '98 issue.

[pate]

Speaking of which: has anybody tried any of the Muzzelite stocks? They look interesting, but I've never heard from anybody who actually had tried one.

[Kodiac]

Just read that ISREAL has deployed a new bullpup battle rifle. chambered in .223 nato. This will be interesting... Isreali stuff does not suck. They take they're weapons very seriously over there - seeing as they USE them every day. The Merkava MBT is the only tank that can challenge the Abrahms... and I dont say that lightly. They are also the only country that still deploys the F-4 Phantom II as a front line warplane... and you got to respect that. 500 cool points for Isreal just for that reason alone.

[Rob Pincus]

how can a guy admire the F-20 tigershark (fast, agile evolution of the F-5) AND the flying buffalo at the same time??

Tell us more about this .223 is it a new stock on an existing platform or is it a whole new weapon system?? And you are right about Isreali stuff, can you think of a BAD Isreali design that lasted for very long at all? Meanwhile, we used 1911s for most of a century!! (just kidding guys... you know I love those old things... http://www.thefiringline.com/ubb/wink.gif)

[Kodiac]

In a perfect world the F-4 would STILL be used as an interceptor here in the US... It never failed in that role.

The F-20, while a good plane, just doesn't say CLASSIC... actually the plane I admire the most is the SU-27...
Speaking of Russian stuff - dual Takarovs in HARD BOILED... cool.

[fal308]

Was at the range yesterday looking through Kiesler's flyer when I saw a new bullpup. It's a German import called the Marksman Rifle. $1999 dealer price.

Action: pump action pistol grip repeater with interchangeable barrel system.
Bolt System: 1.77" straight pullback bolt system with 3 interlocking lugs.
Barrel: Hightly precise stainless steel. Also available in special coated black finish.
Calibers: .243 Win; .270 Win; 7mm Rem Mag;.308 Win; 30-06 Win;.300 Win Mag; .338 Win Mag; 375 H&H Mag; .416 Rem Mag (Additional calibers upon request).
Total Length: 30.9"
Safety: Postiive grip safety-activates fire control.
Trigger: Match trigger.
Weight: 8.2 lbs.
Stock: Select walnut wood available in different grades. Also available in polymer with ergonomically designe, perforated pistol grip.
Side Mounts: Quick detachable clamp-on sight mounts with rings.

[ModIMark0]

I'm familiar with another bullpup rifle. One is/was a custom job from AWC Systems Technology of Phoenix AZ. It is/was basically an M14/M1A in a bullpup stock, and is/was called the G2 Compact rifle. Overall length of the G2 (standard barrel) was 33.25 inches. AWC either factory converted rifles or offered retrofit kits to interested parties, as well as complete new rifles. But I don't know if all of this changed after the 1994 Crime bill became law.

[fal308]

Just found out about another new bp. There's a picture of a South African bp called the Vector on TB's site. No info on it though.

Found some info on Vektor firearms; www.army-technology.com/contractors/machine_guns/index.html if anyone is interested.

[This message has been edited by fal308 (edited 11-24-98).]

[Kevin]

I want to buy a Bushmaster M17 bullpup
has anyone shot one?
how well do they shoot?
how is the trigger pull?
I heard the trigger pull needed some work
is so any suggestions on working on it?

[shane]

I have found a nice site for info on the Steyr AUG,Giat FAMAS, and the FN P-90. www.remtek.com

------------------

[GLV]

Having owned and shot the Valmet, and Sreyr Aug, I really prefer my SBR Colt AR 15. Can shoot from both sides, and I don't have a fortune tied up. GLV

[Rich Lucibella]

GLV-
Would you happen to have a line on scope mounts for the Valmet Bullpup?
Rich

[fal308]

G&W for LE has a writeup on the new Steyr AUG/USR. Now has multi-optic capability with removeable optical/Picatinny rail setup!

[GLV]

Rich, sorry but I can't help you. The company that imported the one I had, is out of business. GLV

[shane]

On the AUG idea; I know that the mag are almost indestructable, but why not go with the rest of the "free world" and use the AR15 style i.e. interchangability is good.
The new Tavor uses AR15(stanag?) mags with the AUG style mag release. pic of Tavor(new Israeli AR) on www.securityarms.com

[Kevin]

Can you get the Tavor in the U.S.
If so how much are they?
That thing looks like alot of fun.


[This message has been edited by Kevin (edited 12-18-98).]

[Kevin]

I took My new Bushmaster M17 Bullpup with simmons red dot site to the range for the first time Sat the 26.
It is now my favorite gun to shoot.(My old favorite is my CAR 15 DPMS w/ Bushmaster 16" flutted barrel)

The M17 was alot of fun to shoot it has a lot less recoil than the AR15 w/ the same Amo.
The ONLY thing I didn't like was the smoke from the ejection port goes right in your face.


[This message has been edited by Kevin (edited 12-27-98).]

[TEX]

The Bushmaster M-17S Bullpup; pretty accurate, muzzle heavy, terrible trigger, lousy iron sights. I love mine. Did some trigger work (much better), installed threaded muzzle brake (same threads as AR-15), narrowed and lowered iron sights, installed 2x6 scope, trimmed and rounded butt, then installed rubber pad, thinking about having barrel fluted to reduce weight and increase barrel surface area for cooling. Just wish they made a .22 conversion kit for it like the Mini-14 and AR-15/M-16. I also believe it will be possible to mount a laser on the barrel, but inside the housing so that it will project out of a hole in the front, but be completely protected by the housing. I have thought several times about trading it in on some new hardware, but I do like it quite a bit and figure bullpups are next on the anti-gunners hit lis,t so I guess I will hang on to it for a while. BTW it looks really wicked with a 120-round drum magazine inserted and the drum rests nicely on your chest to steady you when making off-hand shots. It always draws people at the range who want to know what it is. When you tell them it is an M-17, for some reason they assume, I guess from the name and the looks, that it is fully automatic. Has been very reliable, no jams, misfires, feeding problems or any other difficulites. The AUG is better and handier rifle, but at a much greater cost. At one time I had installed a Muzzlite bullpup stock on my Mini-14, but the trigger pull was terrible, even with some work, and it made the weapon unsafe. If dropped butt first on a carpeted floor from about six inches, the cocked hammer would release. This would cause an accidential discharge if a round was chambered. This doesn't happed with the Bushmaster M-17S or the Mini-14 with standard stock. Good Luck and Safe Shooting :)

[Harley Nolden]

Most of my experience has been with the Styer AUG, in a training envriornment, where many many rounds are fired by comparison to opperation use. My main concern with the BP's was safety in firing.

As indicated, eatin brass was a problem, however, we had to impliment head spacing, chamber, barrel and muzzle errosion into the maintenance of the weapon.

This occurred after one of the AUG's had excessive headspace and blew. The relevance of the chamber to the face of the shooter was criticle here. As you can imagine it could be life threatning.

HJN