How come I never can get all 5 to group?

[Wyoredman]

As you can see, I can get some pretty good groups with my DPMS bull, but I just can't seem to get all five to land in there! I can get three or four but never five!



What am I doing wrong? Sometimes the flier is the first, sometimes the third, some times the fith shot?

I am using a Caldwell rest and shooting from a bench. Any help to get all five in there would be great.

[hoytinak]

I don't know what it is but no matter how many I'm trying to group from 3 up to a 30 round mag......I always pull one.

[Brian Pfleuger]

The law of averages is not your friend.

[Flintknapper]

A good many rifles will print the "first" (cold barrel shot) slightly away from the rest of the group (that are fired immediately thereafter).

You can mitigate that anomaly by "dumping" the first round somewhere off target...if you are just trying for the best possible group size.

I am sure you know, "accuracy" in terms of group size is all about eliminating variables. Hard to do under many conditions.

[kraigwy]

What am I doing wrong?

You're not paying attention. Forget about shooting a 5 shot group, shoot 5 one shot groups.

It's concentration. You shoot, then you're looking at the bullet holes in the target instead of your front sight.

The last shot is history. Concentrate on the next shot.

[mrawesome22]

I'd rule out concentricity and go from there.

Sent from MIUI using Tapatalk 2.

[mellow_c]

Now you know why so many people stick with 3 shot groups

Seriously, I would think it could be 1 of 3 things (Obviously more if you want it to be). You are messing up 1 in 5 shots. The ammo is not perfectly consistent for 1 in 5 shots. Or since you are shooting outside, some crazy atmosphere conditions are happily messing up 1 of your 5 shots every time

Not sure, but other wise those look like some decent groups. Keep it up. and good luck!

Oh, and honestly, I understand your frustration, if you figure it out, let us know. I had this issue with a bolt rifle once... Eventually I found it was the ammo... But when you get what seams like 2 separate tight groups like your picture shows from what was supposed to be one tight group it gets confusing.

You could just as easily be messing up a couple shots in a consistent way to group those 2 or 3 shots away from your actual good shots...

Take advice from some of these other guys and try shooting 1 shot groups, very focused shots, making sure each one is a good shot on your end... then dont choke on the 5th one! and if you FEEL like you pulled one or lost focus as you broke the shot... forget it, discount that shot. and move on... Then practice practice practice.

I hate to say it, but sometimes for us armatures we need confidence in our rifle and load before we can be confident in our shooting. For the real Pro's it's the other way around. I'm sure they can spot a bad rifle/load combination with just a few shots and vice versa.

[HiBC]

IMO, while parallax may be an over rated excuse,it is possible an inconsistent cheek weld combined with a scope with some parallax error could be involved.However,this,in part is a cheekweld issue.I recall reading an article in a Precision Shooting Annual where a gentleman's shooting coach had him shooting at 300 meters...with the rear sight removed.The rest of his shooting technique was good enough,I would call it good shooting with a scope.And of course,cheekweld also applies to iron sights.

Your Caldwell rest may be an issue.Nice,but not lead-dead.Wobble.During the dynamics of firing,sometimes the slop is one way,sometimes another.

You cannot go wrong listening to kraigwy(at least about shooting!:-) )

Just a bit of recoil anticipation can do it.or each of those one shot groups,focus on seeing where the sight was as recoil occurred.Call the shot.Be able to mark the shot on a target on the bench.

If you cannot see the image of where the sights were as the gun fired,you closed your eyes.

[giaquir]

Those look like wadcutter holes.
ron

[TheNatureBoy]

You'd be hard pressed to find one single reason why. So many variables. Having said that I agree with every post I read.

[madcratebuilder]

kraigwy nailed it. It's concentration. It's 90% mental and 10% equipment.

Try some ten round groups.

[ndking1126]

You shoot, then you're looking at the bullet holes in the target instead of your front sight.

Kraigwy, I'm definitely one of those guys who can't get to range nearly as often as I'd like to because of work and family requirements. Are you implying to not even look at the target inbetween shots? Focus so much on your technique that where it hits on the paper becomes a secondary consideration?

[kraigwy]

Are you implying to not even look at the target inbetween shots?

Yeap:

When I was coaching the AK NG Rifle team we had a varity of shooters, The NG had a 50% New Shooter Rule, or any time you show up at the Wilson Matches (National Guard Championships) 50% of your shooters had to be new shooters.

These shooters tended to chase spotters, meaning they would base there next shot on the spotter showing the location of the last shot.

The last shot is history, if you're thinking about it you're not thinking about your next or present shot.

As a coach, I'd take away the shooters spotting scope so he couldnt see the spotters on the target. He had his score book in which I required him to record his calls. He would then give me his call, I'd give corrections based on his call and condition changes. I would never tell him the value of any shot until after the match. The we would set down, compare his calls to the value and location of shot and make any zero or shooter changes necessary for the next stage or match.

I do my best pistol shooting when I wear my reading glasses. With them I can see the front sight but the target is a blur. No way possible that I can see the bullet hole on the target unless I take off my glasses. This means I can worry about my sight picture, trigger control and other fundamentals instead of the last shot or shots I fired.

I use to shoot skeet under the guidence of a guy who use to instruct/coach the Uof GA skeet team. I asked him how do you shoot 100 straight, his reply was always ONE AT A TIME. In skeet or trap you seldom see 99s, the reason is a guy is trying for 100, drops one, thinks about it and drops a couple more.

It works the same way with rifle and pistol shooting. Don't think of your rifle match as a 20 shot stage, think of it as 20 one shot stages.

It's all mental.

[BigMikey76]

Focus so much on your technique that where it hits on the paper becomes a secondary consideration?

That is pretty much the idea, as I understood it. You can't do anything about the last shot, but you can make sure your technique is right for the current one. If you put your focus completely on the current shot, and continue to do so each time, then consistency and grouping should take care of themselves. Basically it is a matter of trying to remove one more variable that can cause inconsistancy - the psychological variable. It is amazing how much we can psych ourselves out if we are thinking in terms of good groups. The psychological pressure to keep the groups tight builds with each shot, and it can, and often does, manifest itself physically. Different people will display this in different ways, but if your tendency is to tense up physically when experiencing psychological strain, then it is likely to have an effect on your shooting.

Like Kenny Rogers said, "Don't count your money when you're sittin' at the table..."

[Powderman]

You're probably doing the same thing I have done in the past. I'll start on a 5 round series/group; I'll set four rounds into a nice little bughole and then I'll make the critical error of looking at the group. Instead of the basics (focus on the crosshairs/front sight), I consciously try to put the last round right into the bughole, and end up throwing it somewhere else.

I have found--especially with a scoped rifle--that my best shooting is done in the middle of the magnification range--for instance, I'll set my scope to about 15X and go for it. I can see the target, and hold a good point of aim--but I can NOT see the group or the bullet holes.

On the positive side, I noticed on your target that you shot in a 15 mph wind. Even if it was only quartering and especially if it was full value, you still have some good shooting on those targets--so, please don't beat yourself up about it.

[Wyoredman]

Thanks for the advise. I like the idea of shooting 5 - 1 shot groups. I did have my friend on the scope that day, so this might be the problem. I was looking for my holes!

Powderman, I appriciate the complimate! BTW, the wind ALWAYS blows in Wyoming. I think 95% of the lead I've sent down range has been in the wind!

[Dave P]

and work real hard on trigger control. Nice smooth squeeze, strait back; no jerks.

Using a scope? zero out parallax errors first.

[Wyoredman]

Using an Nikon M-223 2-8x32, I do not believe it has any paralax adjustment.

[Art Eatman]

My uncle's subscription to The American Rifleman began in 1940. Call me, "Voracious Reader". So, I'd have to say that this question has not been satisfactorily answered in some seventy-two years.

It's likely that the best answer is, "All of the above."

[kraigwy]

Wyoredman, what part of Wyoming. I'm putting on a CMP GSM Clinic & Match in Newcastle on Jun 2nd and Aug 18th.

If interested I'll PM you with the information.

[Wyoredman]

Kraigwy, Lander. I am interested! Please PM me.

[wogpotter]

DPMS bull

A self loader, correct?

My suggestion.
If you're loading 5 in a magazine dropping the bolt with the BHO lever & firing all 5 rounds there's your problem right there.
Try this just for a giggle.

Load 7 rounds.
Drop the bolt & waste the shot into the bank or on a different target.
Fire 5 rounds for score.
Throw away the last round same as the first.

I'm basing this on a test done elsewhere years back with a different self loader, (a FAL), the challenge was load 5, drop manually fire a 5-round group with the magazine empty on the last round. I think about 150 participated, no-one could post proof they could do the 2" group requested. It had to do with the dynamics of internal parts working differently between manual bolt operation, auto bolt operation & last round hold open. Switching to the setup above shrunk groups by a considerable amount.

[kraigwy]

If all the rounds out of a auto can't go into the same group, you have other problems besides the auto.

Take in a High Power match. In rapid fire stages at 200 & 300 yards you're required to fire 10 rounds per sting. Loading two in one magazine and eight in another, they firing with a magazine change.

You'll see a heck of a lot of Clean targets at 200 and several at 300 yards.

In high power you don't get the option of firing one into the bank, if you do its gonna cost you 5 points.

[stu925]

You shoot, then you're looking at the bullet holes in the target instead of your front sight.

I can tell you for a fact that this is my issue, I shoot my best when I can barely see the target. As a matter of fact I'm getting to the point where I shoot irons about as well as I shoot with a scope.

There is one rifle I own which this does not hold true with and that's my Mini-14. The first round out of the mag will almost always be 2" low and 2" left of the rest of the group which I believe is caused by the action being hand cycled instead of being gas operated. I have even gone so far as to shoot groups of those first round fliers and those groups will be exactly the same size as a gas operated group just 2" low and 2" left of the gas operated group. This phenomenon doesn't really concern me since it's not a target rifle although with only about 500 rounds through it there's a chance it'll solve itself with more shooting.

Stu

[Bart B.]

Looks to me like the rifle's not being held the same way for all the shots.

Put a laser bore sighter in its muzzle, then dry fire the rifle watching how the laser spot behaves as you "click" the rifle. If it jumps around differently each time, you need some practice, training or maybe a coach to see what you're doing and help you do things right.

Most new (and some that have been shooting for decades) firearm shooters are finger flickers. I sure was when I started. They flick their finger off the trigger as soon as their nervous system senses the sear release the firing pin and that moves the barrel away from where it has to be to shoot where you want it to. As they are also wanting to get their finger off the trigger as soon as possible for some safety reason. So, as quick as possible, they flick their finger off the trigger after each shot.

Keep your trigger finger pulled back all the way until the firearm stops moving from recoil. This is called follow through. That'll eliminate the wide shots and you'll amaze yourself at how well you shoot.