What Is The Smallest Caliber ADEQUATE For Deer?

[ryalred]

A similar poll was posted on another forum and I thought it would be interesting to see what this group says.

What do you believe is the smallest caliber ADEQUATE for whitetail size deer? I don't mean what do you like to hunt with, but honestly, which to you believe is the smallest caliber a decent hunter/shot could use for whitetail deer?

There are people who are extremely poor hunters and such poor marksmen that they nearly need a cannon to kill a deer, but I'm talking about the average good deer hunter. What could would be the smallest caliber sufficient for them to take whitetail size deer.

Personally, I know that deer have been killed with .22lr, 17HMR, and etc, but I don't personally feel they are really adequate for hunting whitetail deer. There are others who feel that you shouldn't hunt with anything under 30 caliber, but I honestly believe anything over 30 caliber is overkill; however, I would uphold anyone's right to use as large a caliber as they want to hunt with.

My choice for the smallest caliber adequate for the whitetail deer would be the 6mm/.243.

[taylorce1]

Personally I think you should have probably used the search function in this forum and over in the "The Hunt". Then you probably wouldn't have had to ask this question. All this does is bring out a lot of flaming of posts about hunters ethics.

Personally, I know that deer have been killed with .22lr, 17HMR, and etc, but I don't personally feel they are really adequate for hunting whitetail deer. There are others who feel that you shouldn't hunt with anything under 30 caliber, but I honestly believe anything over 30 caliber is overkill; however, I would uphold anyone's right to use as large a caliber as they want to hunt with

You already have your answer in your mind, but you are not even thinking broad enough. Over .30 cal is overkill? What about .357 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 Mag, .45 Colt, .303 Brit, .32 Win Spcl, .35 Rem, .356 Win, .375 Win, .38-55 Win, .45-70, and many many other rounds that don't have the power or range of a standard .308/.30-06 cartridge yet are of larger bore diameter? All these cartridges have taken deer and while not as popular anymore some hunters still like to use them.

Personally I say read your States hunting regulations, base your cartridge selection off of what is legal in the State you will be hunting in. Then use the cartridge that you can shoot the most accurately. Truth be told all legal cartridges will do the job with proper bullet selection and proper shot placement. Don't get hung up on what is underkill and overkill there is only one kind of dead.

[snuffynra]

i belong to a lot of these forums,have for MANY years.i always thought thats what the forums are for,talking about firearms.the flaming post about ethics,animal cruelty,firearms,and lots of other subjects is part of hunting and owning firearms .when you participate in a sport that is hated by many and misunderstood by most you have to deal with it.i had some wild safari hunting charges on you tube last year,i had 2 million views on them.you tube took them down because of a few antis complaining.the antis would say they hoped my children got cancer and died.you dont get mad and argue .i just told them, kids were great but i was worried about getting cancer in my trigger finger?they finally got ignored enough by everyone and left.so dont worry about what some will say about your post.in that note,i would go with the 243 and i do hunt with one sometimes,i have a friend that uses 22 250 all the time.but if you dont get the perfect shot (which is many times)i just dont feel it has enough mass to cause tremendous damage.but like you said many have done it with smaller.on the over kill issue,i dont believe there is really too much gun,well maybe if your using 577 nitro express.for many years i used a 300 win mag for everything.and have shot some game that left pencil hole in and pencil hole out.how comfortable you are with the gun is more important then size.

[KMO]

taylorce1 wrote, Truth be told all legal cartridges will do the job with proper bullet selection and proper shot placement.

Well, since this thread raises the issue of "proper bullet selection," why do you object to the question? Why don't you offer a reasonable opinion on the subject rather than criticize the OP for provoking thought?

[jmr40]

With good soft point bullets a .223 or 22-250 will handle most deer just fine. In some parts of the North and Canada the deer weigh quite a bit more and a larger caliber is needed.

[Lloyd Smale]

even though the centerfire 22s will do the job. My vote goes to the 6mms. they allow for a much heavier bullet and are defineately better penetrators.

[hoytinak]

I'm sure you'll get different answers from different parts of the country but around here I've got no problem using a .223.

[Art Eatman]

kmoffitt, it's sorta difficult for me to believe that somebody who posts such a poll has never, ever, been in a gunstore and listened to any of the discussions, or talked to deer hunters about what they use. Or never, ever read any Internet discussions on the subject.

Hard to believe that anybody this side of Teddy Kennedy would think that the smallest caliber suitable for a deer would be larger than a thirty, as the poll offers.

Then you get to the "One size fits all" factor. If Bambi's momma is headed my way, I'll pop her between the running lights at ten yards with my .17 Mach II and then go to gutting. If the buck of the century is out there across a canyon at 500 yards, I'll go to praying that my 7mmMag or '06 is enough. But, last I heard, there ain't no one size fits all...

[JagFarlane]

I'm sure you'll get different answers from different parts of the country but around here I've got no problem using a .223.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that statement. One must consider in the size of deer around the country. Where down in the SouthEast whitetails are rather small, almost the size of coyotes, up in the North they're much larger, so bullet size will be much different.
Personally I believe a .243 is bare minimum, but then again, I was taught to hunt in NJ, decent sized animals up that way.

[B.L.E.]

A .22 Hornet right behind the ear beats a .338 in the butt.

A .30-06 is most likely enough for any North American game up to and possibly including slaying dragons if the hunter knows his and the rifle's limits.

[taylorce1]

Well, since this thread raises the issue of "proper bullet selection," why do you object to the question? Why don't you offer a reasonable opinion on the subject rather than criticize the OP for provoking thought?

I'm not really criticizing him, I just think if he had looked he would see how many threads have already been started on this subject. Sorry if I came across that way, but at least once a month this subject is broached examples are:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325777&highlight=.223+for+deer
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16545&highlight=.223+for+deer
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=320961&highlight=.223+for+deer
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308318&highlight=.223+for+deer
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295438&highlight=.223+for+deer
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295438&highlight=.223+for+deer

I could probably find you another 50 or so threads just on this too light/lightest caliber for deer. I can understand a new member not knowing how to use the search option but a senior member should. This thread just brings nothing new to the table other than more flaming on hunters ethics. I know we can't all get along on this subject, and it is one of the more heated topics on this forum. I would rank it up there with Zombie, Bigfoot, EOWAWKI, and SHTF topics.

What I meant by proper bullet selection is if you go a light caliber for any game you just need a better constructed bullet than a varmint bullet to do the job. All major bullet makers make a properly constructed bullet for the .224 caliber for deer, place that bullet where it belongs and it will bring down a deer.

We should focus on what legal calibers are and not worry so much about if non legal calibers will work. Sure you can kill a deer with a .17 and .22 caliber rimfire rifles but is it legal in anywhere in the United States? If it is legal then we can discuss it by why talk about things we know are illegal to use in deer hunting.

[Savage99]

ryalred,

I voted 6.5 mm as I don't want to be held back as to what shot I can take. Of course animals can be killed with less but anyone can shoot a reasonable caliber.

[snuffynra]

in ny state only size regulation is it must be a center fire firearm.

[troy_mclure]

ive seen 4 deer killed this season with .204 ruger.

all 4 were head shots from over 200m.

its amazing the amount of damage that little bullet will do to a skull.

[texfar]

I haven't even read a post, and did not vote for a simple reason. My Texas hill country deer go down with a sling shot. My buddy in Michigan is contending with 200 pound animals. IMO it is apples and oranges as to what to use. When I read the title, I knew that there would be all sorts of replies. Pure in simple shoot for what YOU shoot. Not my 100 pound white tail. Just my .02.
Ken

[deermaster]

i ----saw----- a deer get shot with a 17 hummer. 50 yards, between the eyes. he dropped like a sack o rocks. bullet exited the skull on the back side and his head felt like jelly. adequate? very, in a good shooters hands, with a fairly close shot.

[FrankenMauser]

... A very inconclusive poll, in my opinion.


There are many species of deer in the U.S., the world (we have members world-wide, remember), and MANY different restrictions on firearms and ammunition across all these areas.

Members from the mid-west and northern east coast are going to be responding in reference to small white tails.

Members from the south could be responding in reference to massive Alabama white tails, small white tails, or coastal white tails.

Members from the west will likely be responding in reference to mule deer, possibly black tails, and maybe even hybrid muley/white tail deer.

There is a vast difference between a mature 300 pound mule deer buck, and a mature 100 pound coastal white tail buck.

My .380 Auto pistol was a legal weapon in the area I hunted in Florida. Honestly... I felt it would have been more than adequate. They were over-grown dogs.

Out west, I carry a .270 Winchester, 8x57 mauser, or 7.62x39. Quite the opposite from what I felt I needed in Florida.


Provided the hunter knows his limitations and those of the weapon; I don't care what caliber anyone uses, as long as they make it count.

[ZeroJunk]

I've shot more 400 pound hogs of my own and the neighbors than I can remember with a 22 LR between the eyes. Means nothing.
If you want to limit your shots to 50 yard shots between the eyes then that vastly expands the choice of cartridges on the small side.

Like Art says, if you stumble on a 180 class 250 pound buck quartering at 250 yards, good luck with the little stuff. Oh, I forget. Ya'll all pass on those shots.

[BurkGlocker]

I've taken a few deer with my old .17 Rem, but I also knew the range that I was hunting at and all were head shots at less than 75 yards. Would the same caliber be effective on elk or moose? Hell no, but these Texas whitetails arent really all that big, unlike some of the heavier deer up north.

I have taken deer with a .220 Swift as well, and used HP and SP bullets with great results, but nowadays they have the .22 caliber Partition bullets, 60 gr I believe, and I believe those would be great deer medicine in that caliber.

[T. O'Heir]

"...good soft point bullets a .223 or 22-250 will handle most deer just fine...need a better constructed bullet than a varmint.." If the bullet is not a varmint bullet, like taylorce1 says. Most factory ammo is loaded with varmint bullets. Varmint bullets not suitable for deer of any size. Mind you, you need the right bullet construction in a .243 or any other rifle.
"...probably find you another 50 or so threads..." On every firearm/hunting forum. Up here, in Ontario, any centrefire is legal. Alberta has a 6mm minimum calibre.

[ryalred]

From Taylforce1:
You already have your answer in your mind, but you are not even thinking broad enough. Over .30 cal is overkill? What about .357 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 Mag, .45 Colt, .303 Brit, .32 Win Spcl, .35 Rem, .356 Win, .375 Win, .38-55 Win, .45-70, and many many other rounds that don't have the power or range of a standard .308/.30-06 cartridge yet are of larger bore diameter? All these cartridges have taken deer and while not as popular anymore some hunters still like to use them.

You make an excellent point and I had initially thought of including such calibers as exceptions to my over 30 caliber statements, but didn't because I didn't want the post to be too long. But you are absolutely correct.

I suppose I did have my answer in my mind, but I wanted to see what others were thinking. THANKS TO ALL FOR YOUR RESPONSES!

[teeroux]

I pretty much agree with the regulation in my state reguarding this. .22 cal centerfire or larger.

[KMO]

Art Eatman wrote, kmoffitt, it's sorta difficult for me to believe that somebody who posts such a poll has never, ever, been in a gunstore and listened to any of the discussions, or talked to deer hunters about what they use. Or never, ever read any Internet discussions on the subject.

Oh, so we should automatically disqualify his thread because it is redundant? You could whittle down new threads on the FL to no more than 1 or 2 per day if that is your standard here. You know, Art, the FL administrators would do better to focus in on the one-uppers & arm-chair quarterbacks whose haughty arrogance is dragging down your forum.

[44 AMP]

What ever your local state game laws say is the minimum legal caliber for deer.

Period. End of discussion.

Now, if you want to talk about which is the most effective caliber, and under what conditions, that is another issue, and another thread.

[taylorce1]

What ever your local state game laws say is the minimum legal caliber for deer.

Period. End of discussion.

Now, if you want to talk about which is the most effective caliber, and under what conditions, that is another issue, and another thread.


Thank You!

[tyrajam]

Come on guys, lay off. Pointing out the size difference of deer in different regions and the importance of bullet construction is certainly part of a useful discussion, but all of the "This was already discussed!" hysteria is ridiculous. Yes, I'm tired of the "Is a 223 enough for deer?" threads, but this was a simple poll of what individuals from all over the country feel is adequate, and so far there have been over 75 responses. I think its interesting that so many chose the .22, and that the majority chose the 6mm. If you don't find it interesting, then stop making this thread longer with whining.

But I would like to see a hundred more responses on this poll. If you think its a waste of time, move on.

[tyrajam]

P.S.--What the heck is a .14 caliber?????

[kymasabe]

I might consider a .223 as the smallest adequate caliber if it was listed in your poll. I won't vote for .22 for fear someone will think I'm supporting the use of .22LR for deer hunting. Of your calibers listed, I wouldn't go any less than .243 for deer hunting.
Now, for me personally, I believe in taking game ethically and dispatching as quickly as possible. That being said, I don't deer hunt with anything less than a .30 cal round.
My deer hunting experience has always been some .30/30, mostly .30-06, some .308, and tried Brit. .303. My next deer hunt I'll probably try 7.62x54R.
If you're a brush, woods, hedgerows hunter like me, you can't beat the .30/30 lever action rifle for whitetail. Light, responsive, you can carry it all day, accurate. .223 should be left to coyote and prarie dogs.

[taylorce1]

P.S.--What the heck is a .14 caliber?????

A .14 caliber is a .144 caliber like most pellet rifles. There are a few custom .14 caliber cartridges out there most are chambered in firearms like T/C Contender and Encores especially pistols. I think the heaviest custom bullets made still weigh less than 20 grains.

http://www.saubier.com/smallcaliber/russlucas.html

[HiBC]

In Co,last time I looked,70 gr minimum,over 22,and 1000 ft lbs @100 yds.

Recently read an article on the old Rem Mod 25 pumps.Major point of the article was back then,a25-20 and 32-20 were considered adequate deer cartridges.
In Co,a muzzleloader 40 cal round ball is deer legal,so is a .50 cal rd ball elk legal.
Some folks use .357 handguns,and .45acp on up



But I just don't understand the idea of tilting the scales toward marginal performance.The .250 savage,the .243.the 30-30,even calibers like a 6x47 or 6 TCU ,the 7.62x39 all seem mild enough to shoot .I'd actually like to build a Mini-mauser or tiny Sako in 25 or 6.5 Benchrest or ppc.It would be a nice deer rifle. I don't understand handicapping a beginner with something smaller.I guess I don't understand the "Why" I think I could most of the time get a clean kill on an elk with a .22 magnum if I was 40 yds away and had time to wait out a shot. but it doesn't seem like a good idea.I would feel fine with a Ruger #3 single shot in 30-40 Krag,and happy with a 7-08.

Can somebody help me understand the interest in using the very small calibers?

[Dangerwing]

Orriginally posted by Kmoffitt:
Oh, so we should automatically disqualify his thread because it is redundant? You could whittle down new threads on the FL to no more than 1 or 2 per day if that is your standard here.

+1 to that! I'm not privy to the stats, but I would imagine that there is constantly new members joining, old members leaving, new idea's to be added. I supose one could search and find two year old threads, but then what happens? You get threads that are 10 pages long with the OP being in 2005 and the most recent post being in 2009. The point of a thread is to discuss. Its hard to have a discussion over a period of years when several of the people involved in the discussion have moved on.

Orriginally posted by Tryajam
If you think its a waste of time, move on.

Amen! If you think this is a worn out topic then don't read it or post in it. I personally would have never thought to search for this topic, but I saw it while browsing and thought "Hey, that might be interesting" so here I am. If you saw it and thought "GAH! That again! That topic has been beat to death!" then just ignore it and go on about your business. There is no rule that you have to read every thread.

To stay on topic - I picked 6mm/243. The first deer I ever shot was with a 6mm Rem. It was standing still, quartering away at almost exactly 100 yards. Perfect shot right? It ran almost a quarter mile through a swamp. I figured I must have made a poor shot. Nope, when I went to field dress it, I found that I had punctured both lungs, grazed the heart, and broke one of the front shoulders. Good shot placement is important, but you still need to do enough damage to cause a quick kill.

[2fewdaysafield]

Smallest adequate cartridge is the one you are the best with.

A buddy of mine swears by a .22 wmr to the head. He's a GREAT! shot and has never had a problem, that I know of.

For me, a .243 if I'm shooting from a stand. .270 if I'm walking. But I'm not the world's best shot from offhand.

Really depends on your ability to PLACE your shot.

[sureshots]

NC says centerfire cart. so thats what I use.

[taylorce1]

HiBC you are close but not quite right on the Colorado legal firearm regulations. 70 grain bullets only apply to deer, pronghorn and bear, you need a 85 grain or heavier for moose and elk and the minimum caliber is 6mm. Here you go these are from the 2008 brochure:

1. CENTERFIRE RIFLES
a. Must be min. .24 caliber (6 mm).
b. Must have min. a 16-inch barrel and be at least 26 inches long.
c. If semiautomatic, they can hold max. of 6 rounds in the magazine and
chamber combined.
d. Must use expanding bullets that weigh min. 70 grains for deer, pronghorn
and bear, 85 grains for elk and moose, and have an impact energy (at
100 yds.) of 1,000-ft. pounds as rated by manufacturer.
e. It is illegal to hunt game birds, small game mammals or furbearers with
a centerfire rifle larger than .23 caliber during regular rifle deer and elk seasons W of I-25, without an unfilled deer or elk license for the season. A
small game license is required.

Threw ML in because you mentioned it, no fancy powders, sabot rounds, optics, or electronic ignition allowed.

3. MUZZLELOADING RIFLES & SMOOTHBORE MUSKETS
a. In-line muzzleloaders are legal.
b. Must be single-barrel that fires a single round-ball or conical projectile
the length of which does not exceed twice the diameter.
c. To hunt deer, pronghorn or bear, they must be min. of .40 caliber.
d. To hunt elk or moose, they must be min. of .50 caliber.
e. From .40 caliber to .50 caliber, bullets must weigh min. 170 grains.
f. If greater than .50 caliber, bullets must weigh min. 210 grains.
g. Shotshell primers are legal.
h. Pelletized powder systems prohibited in muzzleloading seasons.
i. Cannot be loaded from the breech in muzzleloading seasons.
j. Only open or iron sights allowed in muzzleloading seasons. Fiber optics
and fluorescent paint incorporated into or on open or iron sights are legal.
Scopes or any sighting device using artificial light, batteries and electronic
gear are prohibited during muzzleloading seasons.
k. Sabots are prohibited in muzzleloading seasons. Cloth patches are
not sabots.
l. Smokeless powder prohibited in muzzleloading seasons. Black
powder and black powder substitutes are legal.
m. Only legal muzzleloaders allowed in muzzleloading seasons.
n. NEW FOR 2008: Electronic or battery-powered devices cannot
be incorporated into or attached to muzzleloader during muzzleloading
seasons.

7. HANDGUNS
a. Barrel must be min. 4 inches long.
b. Must use a min. .24-caliber (6 mm) diameter expanding bullet.
c. Shoulder stocks or attachments prohibited.
d. Must use a cartridge or load that produces min. energy of 550-ft. lbs. at
50 yds. as rated by manufacturer.

.357 Mag and .45 ACP don't make legal requirements for hunting in CO, .41 Mag is the smallest standard pistol cartridge that makes the ft-lb requirements. Most pistols don't make the minimum barrel length requierment either.

[Playboypenguin]

What Is The Smallest Caliber ADEQUATE For Deer?
This is where I have to take a stand. I do not believe deer should be allowed to be armed under any circumstances. :p

[ryalred]

I posted the thread because I was curious what most people on this forum thought. Because there had been so many threads about the adequacy of the .223 I was interested in finding out what most people here thought was the minimum caliber for deer hunting. I was personally surprised that more people didn't pick the .30 caliber, although I personally picked the 6mm/243. Thanks to all who participated and will participate in this poll.

[uncyboo]

I don't mean what do you like to hunt with, but honestly, which to you believe is the smallest caliber a decent hunter/shot could use for whitetail deer?


I based my vote off of this question.

[ken22250]

ive killed deer with cartridges of all shapes and sizes, from the .22 hornet (a 113 yard head shot) to the .460 WbyMag, neither would be considered ideal, and i wouldnt suggest anything smaller than .22 and larger than .323 (8mm), or .338, anything larger than .30 is really overkill (with exceptions being the old medium bore cartridges of lever actions), i like .27, i think the .270 winchester on of the best deer cartridges ever made, allong w/ the 6.5-06, ive had my best luck with the .30-06, but ive hunted more with an 30-06 more than anything else, .22 should be minimum, and a .243/6mm would be better.
ken

[gb_in_ga]

Working assumptions:

> Average hunter with average marksmanship skills. Meaning, we aren't talking about head/neck shots, but "boiler room" heart/lung only.
> Average sized whitetail deer. Not "Deer-zillas" that some places have. Not the "Doggie-Deer" like others have.
> Average ranges. 200-ish yards max.

Honestly, you could do just fine with a .30-30 under those assumptions. But, that wasn't what the OP was looking for. As a minimum, I'd not feel well going under 6mm/.243. Granted, a .243 will reach out quite a bit further than 200 yards, but that really isn't why I stop there. I stop there because I'm looking at the size of the entrance and exit holes and their relationship with leaving a good blood trail to track. If you go much smaller and lighter than .243/6mm then you are really limiting your chances with regards to tracking a deer that bolts when it is hit. And I'm not all that thrilled with what I've seen along that line with .243s, for that matter.

I've yet to be convinced that something in the .223 class will punch all the way through and leave a good enough exit wound to leave a trackable blood trail. Maybe there have been advances in bullet construction, and maybe with the use of longer, heavier bullets you really can get a decent blood trail. I haven't seen that yet, therefore I'm not convinced. Then again, as soon as you allow .22 center fires as deer rounds then some yahoo will come along with a light, quick expanding varmint bullet and then what? No, thanks -- let's stick with "real" deer rounds.

I was personally surprised that more people didn't pick the .30 caliber, although I personally picked the 6mm/243.
I didn't go with .30 caliber because I KNOW that there are rounds in the .270 and 7mm class are really good deer calibers. No doubt about it. How could you count out .270 Win, one of the best deer rounds ever? For that matter, I've seen where 7mm Rem Mag has been way overkill on smaller Tx Hill Country deer. My comfort zone for bullet calibers would be .270 - 8mm. Much smaller than .270 and you are talking about a finesse tool for use by the most experienced hunters, and much bigger than 8mm (other than in lower velocity ""brush busters") is overkill on deer sized game.

[ZeroJunk]

I still don't see the downside to using a bigger cartridge ifyou can stand to shoot it. The lost meat argument is overblown. If you shoot them with most anything through the shoulders it's going to make a mess, but the shoulders on a deer don't have enough meat on them fit to eat to worry about. It's hard to get around the fact that you will find more shot deer and cause them less suffering with something like a 270 Win, 280 Rem, 30/06 and their close relatives which are hard to beat as deer cartridges.

[gb_in_ga]

The lost meat argument is overblown.
I've seen it in person in the Tx Hill Country. My father was doing the shooting, with a 7mm Rem Mag, using his Nosler Partition handloads that he developed for Mule Deer/Elk. He hit a buck in the front shoulder quartering back to and exiting the opposite ham. It shredded that shoulder, the backstrap, and BOTH hams. There wasn't enough edible meat left to bother with.

[ZeroJunk]

I've seen it in person in the Tx Hill Country. My father was doing the shooting, with a 7mm Rem Mag, using his Nosler Partition handloads that he developed for Mule Deer/Elk. He hit a buck in the front shoulder quartering back to and exiting the opposite ham. It shredded that shoulder, the backstrap, and BOTH hams. There wasn't enough edible meat left to bother with.

I don't doubt that. A 7 Mag is pretty stout regardless of the bullet. My hunting partner used one for years and I've helped him clean the mess many times. But, that shot is an exception that you can take or not depending on your circumstance. Here you can shoot does till you are sick of it if you want the meat and would probably take that shot only on a trophy, and if he was a trophy at that angle the 7 mag was a good choice regardless of the lost meat.

[gb_in_ga]

and if he was a trophy at that angle the 7 mag was a good choice regardless of the lost meat.
The sad thing about it was that it just wasn't all that impressive of a buck, just your average run-of-the-mill smallish Hill Country buck. Certainly not a "trophy" buck. I take it that his brain was in "disconnect" mode, that he forgot just which rifle he was carrying and what sort of shot he was taking with it. Oh, well, at least the deer didn't suffer. Dad, however, sure was chapped that he had to waste a tag on a deer that wasn't fit to eat.

[DoctorXring]

.

A 223 or a 22-250 is "enough gun" for a whitetail with 3
caveats. But these also apply to other calibers. I've used
both in culling situations and have killed many whitetail
with them.

1. Use a bullet suitable for the task. Nosler partition, Barnes
TSX, or Trophy Bonded Bear Claw.

2. Stay within optimum impact velocity range. 2400 fps for
this calilber.
That would be 150 yards for a 223 and 250 yards for a 22-250.

3. Hit the vitals


My caliber of preference though for all whitetail situations would
be the 260 Remington, 6.5x55, or the 257 Roberts.

dxr

.

[Crankylove]

For a whitetail, up close (75 yds or less), standing still, I would trust my .22 Hornet for a head shot, other wise a .223 would be as small as I would go.

[HiBC]

I do not blame the cartridge,but I ,too have seen some incredible destruction delivered by a 7 mag.I have since chosen more moderate cartridges.I mean moderate from the point of not pushing exteremes,but using what has worked for a long time.A 7x57 will kill the same class of game as a 7 mag will,just not as far away.You can eat closer to the wound channel.
While I would't push the range,for an inexpensive utility volksrifle,an SKS will make venison.
Robert Ruark took a 220 Swift to Africa.Then he wrote "Use enough Gun"

[hogdogs]

error
Brent

[j.chappell]

The lost meat argument is overblown.

Do you hunt antlers only? I hunt for both sport and meat. I get plenty of meat from the front half of the deer. To say that.....

the shoulders on a deer don't have enough meat on them fit to eat to worry about.

is ridiculous. I think anyone who thinks in this way is wasteful and does not appreciate the deer for what it is and what it offers.

On caliber selection I feel comfortable using 22 centerfire and up. I know how to shoot and I load bullets for the job at hand.

I have never lost a deer, nor have they suffered a cruel death do to my choice of caliber or shot placement.

We as hunters owe it to the game to be accurate marksmen, to take ethical shots with appropriate rifles and ammunition meant for the purpose.

Far too many "hunters" use larger more powerful cartridges to make up for poor marksmanship and shot selection.

J.

[fxdrider]

I voted for .22 because that's what a .223 is. I don't believe the .22 rimfire cartridges are adequate, but I believe a .223 Remington in the hands of a skilled marksman will get the job done. However, I'll have to hunt out of my state to test that theory, as Virginia's minimum for deer is 23 caliber. Nice way of keeping the AR's out of the field I guess.

[ZeroJunk]

is ridiculous. I think anyone who thinks in this way is wasteful and does not appreciate the deer for what it is and what it offers

You are free to think what you want. I've cleaned six of them in the last two weeks and when you get past all the white sinew, tendons, and bone their is just not much on a deer shoulder. You can also make a neck roast, cook the ribs, kidneys, liver, gonads, heart. The heart is excellent sauteed BTW.

When I have to put seven strands of electric fence around my garden and they kill my azaleas I can tell you what they offer me, aggravation.

Let me add this. My buddy killed 35 this year and he is not even a hunter, he is a farmer. He had an excellent 12 pointer in the edge of his field and didn't even shoot him. I asked him why and he said that he wasn't eating his beans.
I can shoot them in the head, shoot them in the heart, shoot them with a bow, shotgun, whatever. But, I think telling hunters out there reading this forum that they need to be framming at them with a 223 is just bad advice. They all think they are excellent marksman and only take ethical shots, but that is more in forums than in the field.

[j.chappell]

ZeroJunk,

I apologize if I came off a little strong and opinionated in my post. I just have dealt with a lot of unethical hunters in this area. I in no way meant to imply that you are an unethical hunter. If I came off in this manner I do apologize.

You are right; anyone you talk to in a forum is an excellent marksman and only takes clean shots at reasonable ranges with enough rifle to get the job done. In the real world is where we live and if you have hunted as long and hard as I have (and I have a feeling that you have) you have seen your share of wounded and shot up game.

You will find though that those that shoot large for deer cartridges tend to shoot up more deer than your 243 fan. They just feel that the larger and heavier bullet will do the job if they simply get it to the deer no matter where they put it.

Case in point I was partaking in a drive the last day of a local season this year and was surprised to see one of the participants carrying a 300 Winchester Magnum as we were hunting south central PA hardwoods.

He proclaimed that "if I even get close to a deer the shockwave will put em down". Well a few of us spent more than 2 hours tracking the deer that got away on three legs thanks to his big magnum.

He is the exact type that I am referring to. They think that bigger is better and that it makes up for less than perfect shot placement.

Do I suggest that the beginning hunter go out into the woods for deer armed with a 223, no. The 22 centerfires are best left to those who know how to use them and with what ammunition.

I always choose my rifle based on what type of situation I may find myself in on a given hunt. I most often find myself reaching for a 243, 6.5x55, or 7x57.

J.

[Mike Irwin]

20mm

Wounded deer are scary nasty.

[ZeroJunk]

ZeroJunk,

I apologize if I came off a little strong and opinionated in my post. I just have dealt with a lot of unethical hunters in this area. I in no way meant to imply that you are an unethical hunter. If I came off in this manner I do apologize.

You are right; anyone you talk to in a forum is an excellent marksman and only takes clean shots at reasonable ranges with enough rifle to get the job done. In the real world is where we live and if you have hunted as long and hard as I have (and I have a feeling that you have) you have seen your share of wounded and shot up game.

You will find though that those that shoot large for deer cartridges tend to shoot up more deer than your 243 fan. They just feel that the larger and heavier bullet will do the job if they simply get it to the deer no matter where they put it.

Case in point I was partaking in a drive the last day of a local season this year and was surprised to see one of the participants carrying a 300 Winchester Magnum as we were hunting south central PA hardwoods.

He proclaimed that "if I even get close to a deer the shockwave will put em down". Well a few of us spent more than 2 hours tracking the deer that got away on three legs thanks to his big magnum.

He is the exact type that I am referring to. They think that bigger is better and that it makes up for less than perfect shot placement.

Do I suggest that the beginning hunter go out into the woods for deer armed with a 223, no. The 22 centerfires are best left to those who know how to use them and with what ammunition.

I always choose my rifle based on what type of situation I may find myself in on a given hunt. I most often find myself reaching for a 243, 6.5x55, or 7x57.

J.


I know what you are saying. I killed my Elk this year with a 280AI shooting a 160 grain Nosler partition about 2800 FPS. So you can see where I am coming from. I think the cartridges you list are great for deer, and 22 centerfire with good bullets is OK as long as you allow for the considerations involved in shooting something light and fast at something big and heavy.

[j.chappell]

I know what you are saying. I killed my Elk this year with a 280AI shooting a 160 grain Nosler partition about 2800 FPS.

There isn’t much that that load wouldn’t do. Everyone gets so caught up in all the advertising hoopla that they feel they need what I call the "next county cannon" for whitetail, and with the Remington folks promoting their 300 RUM as the perfect deer cartridge it’s no wonder the easily influenced among us go right along with it.

Heavy for caliber bullets with high SD and high BC launched at medium velocities way out kill their paper ballistics. That is why the 6.5x55 is probably my favorite all around cartridge.

I think the cartridges you list are great for deer, and 22 centerfire with good bullets is OK as long as you allow for the considerations involved in shooting something light and fast at something big and heavy.

I use and have used for some time now a 22-250 loaded with either 53gr Barnes X bullets (have yet to recover one on broadside shots even out to 200 yards, remarkable penetration even on quartering shots) or Speers 70gr semi-spitzers. I have had all one shot kills on any deer taken with my 22's. I however live in south central PA where a 140lb whitetail is a big one. I wouldn’t use a 22 for anything bigger than a whitetail.

I know a lot of guys use them for mulies and have never had problems but I would not.

J.

[sneaky pete]

old Sneaky here: HI-J.C. I voted for .22 meaning .22LR just cuz it is done, However where I live and the Whitetail locally (The Miniture endangered Key Deer) The choice method locally is a Head of Lettuce & a Ball Pene Hammer--Fast Quiet and Very Humane. I have NOT again NOT participarted in such Illegal activities. However sitting in Coconuts Bar having an Adult beverage I did overhear some local patrons talking about it. Just thought to throw a little levity in the discussion. THANX--SNEAKY :cool:

[csmsss]

I actually enjoy arguments like this. They always seem to serve as a reminder that we all hunt under different circumstances and that the assumptions we carry around with us must always be challenged by others' experiences.

[wpcexpert]

All thing concidered, I went with the .20. A .204 Ruger round thru the neck at 150yds would have no problems dropping any whitetail.

On the other hand, a .17 HMR at under 100 in the brain would also kill any whitetail.

On the other hand, a .14 at under 25yds in the brain would also drop any whitetail.

Subject is a moot point. I've had deer close enough to kill with a slingshot. (knock them out, then cut it's throat).

[ryalred]

Thanks again to all who have participated or will participate in this poll/thread. It has been very interesting and informative to me. Hope it has been for you as well. I wonder if a survey like this would produce similar results on other shooting and hunting forums? I suspect it would.