A New SMG (I need one)

[oldbillthundercheif]

I have had enough of my junky Kahr Thompson...

Supposedly they are sending me a new one to replace the one I've sent back to them 3 times for basic functioning issues. As soon as they do I'm going to sell it and get something new.

I would prefer something in .45, although .357 SIG and .40 seem like interesting choices.

Mostly, I just need a pistol-caliber fun little firearm that I can shoot at the local no-rifle range. I have to go way out to the swamp to shoot rifles and don't always feel like making the trek.

Anyway, I don't really know what I want yet so how about some suggestions?
If kahr is true to their word and sends me a new Thompson that I can sell off, my budget will be considerable...

MP5? Uzi? Pistol-Caliber AR?

[Chaingunner]

..MAC10? Tek 9?

[FirstFreedom]

Supposedly they are sending me a new one to replace the one I've sent back to them 3 times for basic functioning issues. As soon as they do I'm going to sell it and get something new.

Sweet! I'll look for it in the TFL classified. ;)

[gunslinger555]

http://www.cx4storm.it/

[Bill DeShivs]

Look at a Keltec Sub 2000 in 9mm or .40.
Bill

[Hkmp5sd]

Are we talking about a full auto SMG or a semi-auto wannabe?

MP5 - $15,000
M16 w/ SMG upper - $15,000
Uzi - $7,000
Mac-10 - $3,000

[tINY]

If you can get post samples, the UMP seems like a nice platform.

If you have to stick to registered receivers, an M-16 with a 9mm upper seems like a good way to go.





-tINY

[Dirty_Harry]

I personally like the AR-15's in pistol calibers. Good looking, good shooting and cheaper than a MP5 knockoff....more accurate too!

[oldbillthundercheif]

I was thinking semi-only, but I would not be averse to coughing up the extra $200 for a SBR version of a gun that would be awkward-looking with a regulation barrel.

I'm thinking pistol-caliber AR at this point, but have only shot one once (full-auto 9mm). Has anyone had good/bad experiences with these?

Does anyone make 'em in .45 or .357 Sig?

How about the MP-5? do they make those in non-9mm flavors?

[VUPDblue]

you can get pistol caliber AR's in 9mm, 10mm, .40, and .45 from Olympic Arms. They are very fun and the SBR versions are quite entertaining to shoot.

[tINY]

The new replacement for the MP5 is the UMP. It is available in 45 acp.

http://www.hkpro.com/ump.htm



-tINY

[gdm]

masterpiece arms make some fun little shooters.Ive seen their mac versions,they are cnc machined ,heat treated and fitted,redesigned bolt,no stinging fingers..260 for 9mm that uses unmodified sten mags and around 289 for the 45 acp that uses unmod greasgun mags.the charging handles are on the top like the thompson or on the left side and a weaver rail is mounted for sighting devices on some models.one word of caution, the 45 acp version will eat up 4-8 boxes of ammo quickly.expensive to shoot.I sold mine because it was too expensive to plink with, now Im wishing I had kept it or got the 9mm version.

they also make some odd looking things that look like a fal/ar15 interbred and a minimac that is bout half the size of a regular 9mm mac pistol.

[oldbillthundercheif]

OK, so I spent many mind-numbing hours on the internet checking out these guns, here's the problems I have:

The civilian version of the UMP looks like a plastic trash-can with a 4-foot barrel sticking out of it and accepts ONLY special 10 round mags. No thanks...

It seems like every maker of pistol-caliber ARs has fallen into the Kahr-Thompson pitfall...
- they don't take magazines that are readily available and cheap. You either have to buy special modified surpus mags from them ($$$) or modify them yourself or get a gunsmith to do it in some cases.
- or you have to buy some wacky extra piece of steel and have a gunsmith fit it to your gun so that it can take unmodified mags.



Does anyone make a pistol-caliber AR that comes to you totally ready to accept readily available mags? I just want to take it out of the box, stuff a magazine into it that I bought at a reasonable price and start the break-in procedure with no gunsmiths involved.

I deal with gunsmiths enough for my target rigs, this one is just for fun and I'd like to mess with it as little as possible.

[tINY]

Bushmaster sells a 9mm Carbon15. Mags hold 30 rounds and are $28....



-tINY

[Hedley]

I thought Rock River sold 9mm AR pistols with available mags.

[oldbillthundercheif]

Rock River uses modified Uzi mags.

Only $35 a pop, what a deal!

[VUPDblue]

Olympic Arms makes a rifle that has a lower that accepts only Glock magazines. The lower is specifically designed for them and only them. You can use 10, 15 and even the 30 rnd Glock 9mm mags. Best part is you can buy the whole rifle or just the lower. Only downfall I can see is that you would have a lower only capable of hosting pistol caliber uppers. Other than that I think they are a great idea.

[blume357]

9mm... 20 round mag. (ruger)

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/blume357/Gun%20Pictures/Web%20Gun%20Pics/RugerPC9folder.jpg

[threegun]

Bet I'm the only one around that has one of these:

Sold mine. Had a colt ar in 9mm also and sold it (it was wonderful though). Had a kel-tec sub-2000 and sold it also. I decided that a rifle needs to have the ability to be effective at rifle distances.

[blume357]

club yesterday using the 50 yard range. Guy showed up as I was quitting and asked if he could put up a target. I said sure, I was going to go take mine down... we walked out and I took mine down and walked back and he was gone.... finally saw where is was... 200 yards down range... pinning up his targets, way out of my league.

[threegun]

Blume, The point is that with the 223 and your mini-14 you could effectively eliminate threats at 200 yards. At this range a rifle chambered in a handgun caliber would be at a great handicapp.

[oldbillthundercheif]

...that's where I live. Shots beyond 50yds are extremely improbable as most of the streets are curved and the air is so humid you can't even see 100yds through the haze most days.

[threegun]

...that's where I live. Shots beyond 50yds are extremely improbable as most of the streets are curved and the air is so humid you can't even see 100yds through the haze most days.

I got it, since you will mostly be shooting close you choose a caliber that is good only at close ranges. You do realize that center fire rifle calibers are even better at close distances right? While still giving you the ability to shoot farther if it was ever needed. Center fire rifle calibers will always outperform handgun caliber cartridges so choosing the latter offers no advantage in close range shooting. With loads like Glaser safety slugs and blitz over-penetration problems can be reduced. There really is no logical tactical reason for choosing a rifle chambered in a handgun caliber. Thats why I sold all mine off. I loved my colt ar in 9mm but I also love the M-4 ar I replaced it with. The M-4 gives me the flexibility to eliminate threats from the muzzle out to 300yards or so.

[tINY]

But there are a lot of goblins in N.O. and carying all that 308 ammo in the heat is tough...



-tINY

[FirstFreedom]

There really is no logical tactical reason for choosing a rifle chambered in a handgun caliber.

threegun is correct. Only time a pistol cal subgun is more useful vs. human agressors than a rifle-calibered carbine, is on certain stealthy missions which call for a carbine that IS truly a subgun (full auto), AND suppressed, with subsonic 9mm or .45 ammo. So if it's for fun, get the 9mm. If it's really for possible SHTF/combat scenario, get a .223, 7.62x39, or bigger.

[Evil Monkey]

Only time a pistol cal subgun is more useful vs. human agressors than a rifle-calibered carbine, is on certain stealthy missions which call for a carbine that IS truly a subgun (full auto), AND suppressed...

EVEN THEN....still a silenced SMG is not the answer when you have rifle like the Russian VAL rifle firing 9 x 39mm rounds. Here in the US we have those Whisper cartridges and similar cartridges.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as10-e.htm

sr3
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as65-e.htm

more info
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/silcart.html

[FirstFreedom]

Good point...

[shaggy]

It seems like every maker of pistol-caliber ARs has fallen into the Kahr-Thompson pitfall...
- they don't take magazines that are readily available and cheap. You either have to buy special modified surpus mags from them ($$$) or modify them yourself or get a gunsmith to do it in some cases.
- or you have to buy some wacky extra piece of steel and have a gunsmith fit it to your gun so that it can take unmodified mags.

Colt or RRA 9mm upper upper, standard 5.56 lower, heavy/9mm buffer, and the VM-HyTech mag block. The VM piece snaps right in, looks good, and works great with unmodified Uzi mags. The Colt uppers are great - I've had two 635's and one 633, but the Colt factory mags are overpriced junk. Unmodified Uzi mags are really the way to go. I've had an Oly 9mm conversion and don't like theirs due to the mag block needed for use with Sten mags.

[smince]

If you have a 1911 or Glock frame laying around, try a Mechtech CCU (.45ACP. 10mm, 9mm, .460Rowland, .38Super, etc.):

[threegun]

tINY,

But there are a lot of goblins in N.O. and carrying all that 308 ammo in the heat is tough...

I agree whole heartedly. The perfect caliber for a self defense rifle IMO is the 223. It weights slightly less per round than a fmj 9mm and half as much as a 308. With the 223 and my AR-15 I can easily eliminate 300 plus goblins with my mobile gear configuration.
http://thumbp1.mail.mud.yahoo.com/tn/?sid=2348040506&mid=AE%2FJjkQAALUZRN0GPALBKGCKoXs&partid=5&res=88x88&f=312&fid=Inbox&appid=vespaui http://thumbp1.mail.mud.yahoo.com/tn/?sid=2348040506&mid=AE%2FJjkQAALUZRN0GPALBKGCKoXs&partid=6&res=88x88&f=312&fid=Inbox&appid=vespaui

390 rds of 223, 75 rds of 40S&W from a colt sp1 lower w/ bushmaster dissipator upper, Glock 35.

If I plan to stay within say 100 yards I might opt for the shotgun
http://thumbp1.mail.mud.yahoo.com/tn/?sid=2348040506&mid=AE%2FJjkQAALUZRN0GPALBKGCKoXs&partid=2&res=88x88&f=312&fid=Inbox&appid=vespaui http://thumbp1.mail.mud.yahoo.com/tn/?sid=2348040506&mid=AE%2FJjkQAALUZRN0GPALBKGCKoXs&partid=3&res=88x88&f=312&fid=Inbox&appid=vespaui

http://thumbp1.mail.mud.yahoo.com/tn/?sid=2348040506&mid=AE%2FJjkQAALUZRN0GPALBKGCKoXs&partid=4&res=88x88&f=312&fid=Inbox&appid=vespaui

125 rds buck and slug, 45rds 40S&W, From either a Remington 870 or1100 with 26-28inch barrels and 10 shot tube extensions. Both will pattern buckshot well to 50 plus yards and hold 11 shots. Plus the G-35

[tINY]

I'm too enamored of the penetration of my 308 guns.

But, hey, I'm a big guy (225 pounds in good shape.....).




-tINY

[oldbillthundercheif]

3gun- I already have an AK, several high-capacity 12ga shot-tossers, and a 1903-A3 Springfield for unfortunate situations. This one will be for the local range when I feel like shooting a rifle but don't feel like driving out to the swamp (local range=no rifles).

[threegun]

Oldbillthunderchief,

This one will be for the local range when I feel like shooting a rifle but don't feel like driving out to the swamp (local range=no rifles).

I got you.

tINY, I love the 308. I just believe that for the situations for which I am preparing, penetration is of less value. Speed of engagement (from target to target) and ammunition carrying capacity are of greater importance. From my three gun match experience the 223 is way faster between shots. At 225 pounds you could carry the 308 and ammo with ease still that figure would be double if you changed to 223.

[oldbillthundercheif]

Got a new Thompson today to replace the junker they gave me the first time around and sold it for more than I paid for it.

I think I'm going to pick up a Rock River 9mm CAR-A2.

What's a good price for these?