10mm v. 40 Super v. 400 Corbon

[CReynolds]

I admit to much ignorance in the above listed calibers. I am therefore seeking advice from the many wise and knowledgeable on this board. I will explain.

I used to be a big 9mm fan, carried that caliber for many years. Recently lost faith in the 9mm, and that was all it took. I started shooting 40 and 357 SIG. Both felt good, but I feel the 357 is just a hyped up 9mm and the 40 is a compromise between the power of a .45 and the capacity of the 9mm. I have shot the .45 and love it. It shoots real well for me. Before I make my final decision, however, I wanted to get opinions on the above cartridges and their appropriate deliver systems (types of handguns).

I have done some preliminary research on the topic and it looks like I would have to go to a 1911 platform to utilize these rounds. I have heard that the SIG 220 has been converted to use .40 Super and 400 Corbon.

Any comments are greatly appreciated.

Coley

[CastleBravo]

.400 Cor-Bon is, in my opinion, the worst choice of the three. Factory .400 Cor-Bon (only available from Cor-Bon) equals factory 10mm ballistics with lighter bullets, but that's it. There are NO heavyweight (180gr-200+gr) factory hunting loads in .400 Cor-Bon. Cor-Bon's load data for making your own .400 Cor-Bon actually has worse ballistics than comparable 10mm load data, and has no data for loads above 165gr. Of course, brass availability is also limited.

10mm Auto ammunition is made by every major ammunition maker, and reloading supplies and equipment for it are widely available and affordable. There is also more 10mm load data available than you can shake a stick at, everything from 135gr-220gr, mild to smokin'. You can easily convert a .40 S&W 1911 to 10mm, or get a Glock 20, 20C, 29, EAA Witness standard/compact, S&W 610, STI/SVI, Les Baer, Dan Wesson Pointman or even a used Colt Delta Elite, Star Megastar, S&W 10xx series semi-auto, etc. Ballistics with factory ammo meet or exceed .400 Cor-Bon and you can make your own loads that SAFELY blow it out of the water, especially with heavier loads.

.40 Super is the king of the power competition (900+ ft-lbs), but factory ammo is only available from Triton and some reloading equipment isn't even available yet! (There are many threads over on GlockTalk.com that complain about this problem). .460 Rowland is probably a less problematic and more powerful solution if you want the the most from a 1911-sized platform.

[croyance]

Ditto what CastleBravo said.

.40 Super is certainly the most powerful of the three, but ammo is difficult to get.

I believe that getting too caught up in the power of handgun rounds. All handgun rounds are a comprimise between power, controlability, and portability.

[Pigshooter]

Another approach is to decide on a window of bullet weights you want to go with. Larger calibers will generally offer heavier bullets, though there is a large crossover.

I would skip the 400 CB because it is a bottleneck (personal choice). If you want real power and mass try a 45 Win mag. No other autoloader comes close except the 50AE and to a lesser extent 10mm mag (that is in straightwall semi-autos). AMT makes a 1911 style pistol in all three, though mine was really picky about loads.

[etnaguy]

One plus for the Corbon round is that cases can be formed from standard 45 ACP cases. All that is required is to resize them in the die.

[CReynolds]

Thanks for the great responses. I learned a lot.

CastleBravo: I had no idea there are so many handguns for 10mm. I might look around for a Witness considering the inexpensive price. You mentioned that it was relatively simple to convert a .40 1911 to 10mm. Is this a job I could do, or would you recommend a smith? I have no experience fixing or building firearms. Also, do you have any concerns about damaging the firearm after such a conversion or can the 1911 handle the extra stress of the 10mm? I would plan on shooting some hot loads.

Thanks again

Coley

[stans]

Converting a 1911 in 40 is relatively simple. A new barrel and a heavier recoil spring, 22 pounds, for full power 10mm ammo and a shock buffer on the recoil spring guide rod. I would recommend a full length guide rod. I prefer a 45ACP size ejector as well, since the 10mm uses large pistol primers instead of the 40's small primers.

[agtman]

CReynolds:


Some Kimber .40 owners, switching to 10mm, just have a competent 'smith ream out the barrel to the longer specs of the 10mm Auto.

As Stans said, then pick up a stronger (Wolff's ) recoil spring & f.p. spring.

Many Delta Elite owners use a FLGR, along with the heavier spring & a shock buff. Reports are that the standard .40 S&W extractor & ejector work just fine, as they should, since case dimensions, where they count, are the same.

Biggest scramble is for the 1911-pattern 10mm mags. Check out Brownells for the Colt DE 8-rd mags. Others have had good experience w/ CMC 9-rd mags.

Also, as CB listed, there are more 10mm pistols available, new and used, than the 10mm-haters like to admit. Too bad. But it's good news for those who want to shoot the world's most versatile pistol cartridge chambered in a conventionally-sized handgun. And in more than enough "platforms" to choose from.

Keep an eye out for the Dan Wesson 1911-pattern Pointman Major in 10mm Auto. Supposed to be released later this year. The 10mm-haters will probably lose it over this one. It just isn't staying "dead."

[jakester]

I did some research on the 10mm conversion for a 40S&W 1911 and got some feedback from the Springfield Armory Custom Shop. They said the barrel switch (or ream out) and spring change is all that's necessary to convert this 1911A1's to 10mm. Also talked with some fellow IPSC shooters that converted their 1911's to 10mm since "reliable" competition feeding of 40S&W required "long" loading to almost 10mm OAL (in their opinion: many 40S&W shooters out there in IPSC world that don't load that long though).

Personally, give me a 10mm 1911 or Witness. I love the 10mm round and unfortunately sold my pistols before the round was widely available and I had yet to start reloading.

[jtduncan]

400 Corbon is dead. Until a gun manufacturer designs a gun around that cartridge, it's not viable. So 400 Corbon and 40Super are out. And so is 45Super or 450 SMC. If you want a 200 grain bullet to do 1200-1300 fps, many 10mm rounds can do that. Sure you could buy an aftermarket barrel for the "wonder Supers" but you're just wasting your time and risking any warranty service by wildcatting that Sig.

Not with my P220 or P226!

and forget customizing a gun to shoot someting it wasn't designed to shoot in the first place. The frame/slide usually won't take it long term and you'll shorten the lifespan on the gun. Excessive frame battering, peening and stronger springs won't help if nobody makes them! And you won't want to shoot more than 30 rounds with some of those wonder supers. If no fun, you won't shot and you'll just have another space waster in the safe.

Few reloading recipes on the Net too so not even us reloaders are looking at it.

And if you want to shoot volume, loading bottlenecks does slow you down compared to staright walls like 9, 10, 40, 45. Progressives and bottlenecks are not the best combo because if one die gets out of alignment, you can toast that case. So 10mm wins the relaoding ease award of the wonder supers.

Now 40Super would be a much better choice if you want to HUNT with your P220. But for a self defense round, I think, its a tad overkill. heck, just get out your 454 Causull if raw power is what you're after.

And then there is the issue of the alumnimum frame on your P220. I owned and loved my classic P220 but with its lighter weight frame, I don't know if they are pressure rated for these hot rounds.

Now if you want a self defense round that won't over pentrate and you can hunt deer, bear, cougar, and small hog with, its the 10mm.

But I think you won't be able to load some butt-kickin rounds in there. Seems like the Glock 20 is the platform of 10mm lovers. But check with the Sig Forum guys too.

As for me, the 357 sig gets 500 fpe which equal the 45 ACP round at the +P end. It's not a supped up 9mm at all. Do your research. Agencies are picking up the 357 sig over 40 SW due to lighter recoil and quicker followup shots. Love my Glock 32 and 33 in 357 sig.

Who makes a 400 Corbon gun? Heck, he blows up 30-40 guns a year making his zippy ammo and has had long term QC issues. And where is that 45 Super or 40Super gun? Non-existent!

All the wonders can offer you is a couple of barrel and ammo manufacturers and some custom shops run by guys with no formal education in physics, maths, statistics, ballistics, kinetics, materials design, metallurgy, or mechancial and structural engineering. A couple of lawyers and ex-gunsmiths and ex-gun factory workers. Hacks basically just like way too many people in the business. Just becuase you love guns doesn't mean you can design them or their ammo.

If you want a good all around caliber, you've got it in 45 ACP. you can compete with it and shoot BGs with it. Those other rounds are for special applications.

But of your three choices, Glock, Colt, EAA, et al. make 10mm handguns currently. Police agenices and hunters alike use the 10mm. But it does have some recoil to it. But fine for experienced shooters and reloaders.

And Glock, Sig, Steyr, and HS/Springfield are doing 357 sig guns. What does that tell you?

10mm or 357 sig.

[jtduncan]

And scratch any ideas about a wonder super in a 1911 platform.

Those puppies are brutal to shoot 10mm out of.

And 40Super, 400 Corbon - plezz.

Might as well take a hammer and pound you hand for 15 minutes. cheaper that way.

Maybe its the grip angle and the thinner backstrap of those single stack 1911s, but the recoil is very pronounced in those setups. I can shoot 300 rounds a session of 10mm through most Glocks.

The 1911 was made to shoot 45 ACP - a low pressure round.

There have been some really nice 40SW and 9mm 1911s made for those rounds. Buy one of those.

But reaming out a barrel made for 40SW to accept a higher presssure 10mm round is asking for a KABOOM because the barrel thickness is part of the safety margin maintaining case integrity. Kind of like using a condom twice.

If it ain't made for 10mm or any of the others from the ground up, I wouldn't put my paws on it.

[Carbon_15]

The .40 cor-bon is the ballistic twin of the 10mm but without the capacity advantage. I have a hard time seeing the nitch for this round. It has the ballistics of a 10mm but the capacity of a .45.

[CastleBravo]

But reaming out a barrel made for 40SW to accept a higher presssure 10mm round is asking for a KABOOM because the barrel thickness is part of the safety margin maintaining case integrity.

You know, that comment makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The external dimensions of the .40S&W and 10mm barrels are IDENTICAL, and the internal dimensions of the .40 S&W and 10mm slides are IDENTICAL. So a reamed .40S&W barrel has exactly the same amount of steel as a purpose-made 10mm barrel.

Really, the only differences between the .40 S&W 1911 pistols and the purpose-built 10mm 1911 pistols like the Delta Elite is that the DE has a heavier slide. I know at least one pistolsmith (Dane Burns http://www.burnscustom.com/ ) who thinks the heavier slide doesn't do a damn bit of good for the gun, and with a proper recoil setup either one (Converted .40S&W Kimber or Delta Elite) will hold up well.

[Peter M. Eick]

I will follow up on Jtduncan's comments.

I have a 10mm Bear heavyweight monolith and recently I have concluded that the 1911 design is not "best" for the 10mm round. I am not saying I do not like my Baer 10mm, I love it, but after a 700 rnd session of both 1911 and glock format shooting, the glock is just more "pleasant" to shoot a lot.

I think the 1911 can be more accurate (it certainly is in my case) but it is somewhat painful to shoot hot loads for.

Anyway, live and learn.

[Nightcrawler]

Okay, if I were going to get a 10mm, I'd be almost out of luck, I think. There's the Glock 20, but that's one of the two larger framed Glocks (AFAIK), the other being the Glock 21, and those do NOT fit my hand comfortably at all.

The Witness is another choice, but it lacks ambi controls, and I'm left-handed.

I've never seen a Delta Elite for sale anywhere.

*sigh* I wish CZ would make a the equivalent of a CZ-85 in 10mm. That would rule.

[WESHOOT2]

Have a Clark 400 C-B barrel for my 1911 (Caspian, of course). Love the cartridge; EXTREMELY ACCURATE. Devastating defense cartridge when loaded correctly.

The 10mm rules the .400"-bore world.

Fact, no whining allowed.
What'sa 40 Souper? And 460 R? Get real LOL.

But I love my 41AE.

Confused now?

[CastleBravo]

I almost wish I could put some of you behind my BCP Delta Elite so I could disabuse you of any silly notions about the 1911 not being a good platform for 10mm Auto.

Once I shot it awhile I sold my Glock 20C... just had no use for it. A 10mm CZ-97 would be darn neat, though.

[Dan C. Johnson]

CReynolds;
It appears some of the guys here do not grasp the concept of the 400 CorBon. It was never intended to replace any cartridge but rather to compliment the 45 ACP. You stated you liked the 45 so you might consider buying a 45, then for a 150 bucks or so you can get a 400 CorBon barrel and have two cartridge capability. You could do the same with the 40 Super if you want more power but as others have said ammo and dies are in short supply. With the 400 CorBon, dies are plentiful and cases can be easily formed from 45 ACP cases so you need never worry about components. If you load on a single-stage press, the 400 Cor-Bon is actually faster to load since you don't have to bell the case mouth, at least not with RCBS dies.

Dan C Johnson

[John Forsyth]

Usually Castlebravo and I disagree with respect to a few things, but not with respect to the 10mm in a 1911 platform. Everyone should realize that the .40 is a fairly hign pressure round. By reaming out a .40 barrel to 10mm specs, it is easy to make a 10mm. The trick to making a 1911 run in 10mm is mostly in setting the recoil spring to the proper stiffness,

Anybody who thinks reaming out a .40 barrel to 10mm specs is asking for trouble in a 1911 doesn't know what they are talking about. Why Kimber keeps putting .40 barrels in their 1911's is beyond me. They should be making 10mm's.

The 10 has everything going for it, strong case, bullet weight availability from 135 to 220 gr, and a multitude of platforms. Why bother with the CorBon the Super when you can have the real thing.

[WESHOOT2]

Because the ejected cases go farther than the bullet!

(Hmm...lesseenow...barrel OD'd for .451", 400 CB bore only .400"...one really stiff tube.....accurate like laser, oh! and I can drop my Clark barrel in easily with zero other changes.)

[Triton Ammunition]

And where is that 45 Super or .40 Super gun? Non-existent!

You may try looking here for a Factory 40 Super gun

STI Trojan

and here for a .450 SMC gun

STI Xcaliber

This company also produces a factory gun that will handle the .450

Springfield V16

These only represent what, I guess, you consider “Factory” guns and does not mention the numerous “Custom Shops” that will produce/modify firearms for the .40 Super and 450 SMC. We are in discussions with other manufacturers to produce “Factory” guns for the .40 Super.

[jtduncan]

CastleBravo:

You are without a doubt, a serious 10mm shooter. I think many of us remember the big smile on your face when you got that Colt Delta Elite in 10mm just several months ago. It is working for you. But after shooting 1911s in all kinds of configurations to enter the 1911 world, I think they got it right with the original cartridge - big and slow - 45 ACP.

Call Glock or EAA and ask them about these 45 ACP to 10mm conversions. Glock really doesn't like them especially the Supers. They have asked me why when you can just go 10mm. One of the tech told me, hell just get a Ruger Redhawk and stop calling me!

Shooting higher pressure rounds from a 45 ACP based system requires more than just a barrel, recoil spring swap. I'm waiting for Texas Ammo kabooms to start showing up. I can only recommend those conversions with a slide swap as well. And with that additional cost, a new gun is in order.

While 10mm isn't 7mm Rem Mag or 30-06 or 308, you can humanely and effectively take down a deer or an under 160 pound hog with shot inside 50 yards. And in the Northwest, that's all many of us need with the dense forests and cover. And if not, then my Redhawk in 44 mag and some 300 grainers come out for all of the above plus Mr. Elk.

Absolom: I have three very good friends who own gunshops and we share our toys. One of my FFL friends has about 15 barrels from BarSto, Federal Arms, Olympic Arms, and KKM. And most of them sit in his safe for months. Nice to have if you can afford them, but many us REALLY don't shoot them once we've got them. Kind of like all of the health club memberships sold in January. By March, the gym is empty again.

If shot the 400 Corbon and 40Super several times from a guy whose reloading I trust. Me. I took their dies and did it myself. Not impressed. And I shot several 40SW 1911s. Not impressed.

I can load some 45 ACP rounds that feel like 9mm with some 200 SWCs and Unique, Clays, or TiteGroup powder and get a bigger bullet moving plenty fast to knock down plates, poppers, or make big clean holes. All I need is a lighter recoil spring or a pair of wire clippers and a spare recoil spring.

Customizing guns is fun BUT but Porsches were made to PUNCH IT. They're not old lady cars. Period. Go with the gun designer's vision and don't mess with it too much!

Just my two cents, well my dime. . . .

[jtduncan]

Dan:

400 Corbon has a niche application. Maybe cougar or smaller hunting.

But it's already dead on the vine.

Again, if the gun heavies don't make a gun for that round, it's gone. No market, no sales, extinction.

[jtduncan]

CReynolds mentioned 9mm, 357 sig, 40SW, and 45 ACP and referenced a 1911 platform.

Well, CReynolds, you can easily run those puppies in a Glock 20 or G21 platform. With the polymer and the double stack width, recoil is not an issue unless you're a shooting newbie.

And if not Glock, look at EAA witness line. But you don't need a 1911 to play with those Supers.

triton ammo: Who are you Mr. I just registered to post a PUTT? Credibility comes with identification and demonstrated expertise and longevity on this board. Who have you been posting under previously?

STI is a large custom shop specializing is race and competition guns. They are NOT a major manufacturer - a specialty shop just like Dan Wesson et al. I went to their website and sure looks like a custom shop to me. Why else would you have a webpage called COMPLETE GUNS? Same kind of feel to Texas Ammo's website.

And Springfield has lost so much market share in the 1911 business that I can recommend their rifles ONLY.

Want a good 1911 platform right out the box, well the salty ole gun shop employees came up with this 1911 list:

Kimber, Colt, or ParaOrdance (sp?) in a double stack configuration with perhaps a polymer frame to help with the additional recoil for the Supers. Springfield appeared to tie with a couple manufacturers in the number three spot.

The Supers do snap more than the big and steady thump of a 45 ACP round in a 1911 platform.

And I would stay away from Springfield. Look at that POS XD HS2000 knockoff thy are trying to peddle? Take a $300 HS2000 Croatian-made and badge your name on the polymer frame and then charge another $100? Unethical practice and I'd stay away from them for that alone.

Again, go 10mm or don't go at all. Or you can always pick up a 400 Corbon or 40Super barrel cheap off of the Accessories for sale forum. Again, people buy them then tend to dump them after a year or so for lack of using them.

The only conversions that people really use are the Glock and 1911 conversions to .22lr by Advantage Arms and I'll mention Cienier even though he's out in the Glock circles. And the AR-15 conversions. People do shoot those a lot.

Super conversions are cute gee-whiz gadgets but unnecessary. Add a couple hundred to the gun budget and buy a dedicated platform!

Signed,

Mr. Heavily Opinionated

[jtduncan]

CastleBravo:

Dan Burns is just a stone throw aways from my house. He does excellent work and his 1911s are worth evey penny.

But simple physics hold that heavier masses move slower against force. Thus your heavier slide on your Colt Delta Eltie is the best way to slow frame and shooter battering combined with a heavier recoil spring to absorb recoil.

And given the increased risk of kaboom with the wildcats, 40SW included, I want a heavier and thicker slide to fortify my gun and protect my hand.

I'd shoot your CDE, but I've seen a ParaOrdnance 40SW kaboom two stalls down a couple weeks ago. Not a pretty sight. Fast powder and big bullet. No thanks.

Dan is a one man shop PERIOD. But the law of physics and reloading safety cannot be discarded just because you can make it fit.