Fighting rifles: Why not an M1 Carbine?

Marko Kloos · August 14, 2001, 09:51 AM

There are plenty of battleworthy rifles in my gun closet, but the one that's loaded up and ready for emergency use is my M1 Carbine. I keep it with a 30-round magazine in the gun, and two 15-rounders in the little butt pouch, for 60 rounds of instantly accessible "social medicine".

Where the AR-15 and AK-47 usually don't get derided as MOUT/CQB rifles, some folks belittle the M-1 Carbine as little more than a pistol with a buttstock, woefully underpowered and inadequate for serious fighting. Among the list of deficiencies are an "underpowered" round, limited range, and short sight radius for a rifle.

I happen to think that the M1 Carbine makes a fine and handy fighting tool. It has a bunch of features I find very desirable in a rifle, and its drawbacks are usually a non-issue for the kind of scenario any of us might encounter. The Carbine is very light, handy, can be held and fired one-handed if necessary, and it swings around extremely quick. Rate of fire is as high as any other semi-auto, recoil is very mild, and the sights are fairly good for an infantry rifle. The ammo is not a main battle rifle cartridge, but it has more punch than a pistol round and is perfectly adequate for the typical engagement distance of 300 yards or less. The ammo is lighter than most other rifle ammo and very compact, which means that the rifleman can carry more ammo with less bulk.

Listening to the detractors of the M1 Carbine, I always get reminded of the fact that while it was designed as a rear echelon & support personnel weapon, the Marines in the South Pacific thought it made a dandy fighting rifle. They loved the little carbine, and Marines know a thing or two about rifles and infantry combat. If it was good enough to be taken up the shores of Iwo Jima with the Marines, it's certainly good enough for me.

Bottom line: Next time you're looking for a centerfire semi-auto rifle that won't break the bank, has a ready supply of cheap 15- and 30-round magazines, is one of the handiest fighting rifles ever built, can be shot at most indoor pistol ranges, and is just plain fun to shoot, consider an M1 Carbine. There's a very good two-page article on the M1 Carbine and its viability as a LEO rifle in this month's S.W.A.T. Magazine, by the way.

Correia · August 14, 2001, 10:34 AM

I always find it interesting how some people will deride the carbine as obsolete, but then say that the MP 5 is the be all end all of weapons. The carbine is a great little gun.

**Mike Irwin** · August 14, 2001, 10:56 AM

If you're willing to live with the Carbine's restrictions, short range and low power for a rifle-class weapon, it is a fine rifle.

Even with those restrictions, though, the Carbine still gives you greater power than a handgun, greater range than a handgun, easier hitting ability than a handgun, and generally a lot more shots than a handgun.

Marine use of the Carbine wasn't based on the Marines' knowledge of fighting rifles so much as it was on the desire of some Marines to cut the weight they had to carry, especially during beach assaults. That was the same reason that the Carbine was so popular with Airborne troops.

There were exceptions, though. Some Marines and Airborn troops would trade their Carbines for the longer range and greater power offered by the M 1 Garand.

My great-uncle was in the 82nd Airborne during WW II, and made all of the drops made by the 82nd and never was wounded (lucky damned man).

In one of the only war stories he ever told me, he said that he couldn't finagle a submachine gun so early on traded for an M 1 Garand even though it increased his payload.

My first choice for an "anti-social" rifle is my SKS. It's what I have.

buzz_knox · August 14, 2001, 11:05 AM

According to most accounts, both the Army and the Marines were actually unhappy with the M1 Carbine during World War II and Korea.

DeputyVaughn · August 14, 2001, 11:26 AM

There is an interesting personal account of a man's "love affair" with the M-1 Carbine in this months issue of "Soldier of Fortune".

Scott A. Vaughn

Art Eatman · August 14, 2001, 12:34 PM

The M-1 Carbine came about as a replacement for the 1911A1 for officers and truck drivers and suchlike folks.

A 100-grain bullet at around 2,000 ft/sec just isn't a true combat rifle cartridge, particularly with a full-patch bullet.

I once worked with a guy who was a Marine Corps medic in the South Pacific. He told me that Japanese patrols wouldn't even break stride if fired upon by a Carbine at anything over 500 or so yards. When they heard a Garand, they would scatter.

Inside 100 yards? Low stress? Heart/head hits? Fine.

FWIW, Art

August 14, 2001, 01:08 PM

The only thing holding me back from getting an M1 Carbine for a battle rifle is that I don't think the 30 Carbine round will do well against armor. Ather than that, I think it is the ultimate for unarmored urban warfare. The 30 Carbine is a nice little round and I can't think of a better platform to launch it from.

Nanaimo Barr · August 14, 2001, 01:08 PM

gotta agree with lendringser here, I keep a M1 handy with a 15 rd in and a 30 beside it, just the ticket around here what with the Coyotes and serial killers (we had one pass within a mile late last month, I mean both a coyote and a serial killer)

gotta love those Soft Points....

NB

Hawkman · August 14, 2001, 02:45 PM

Guess I'll come out of the closet and admit that my Inland M-1 Carbine stands in the closet with a 30 round mag and two 15's as spares...

duck hunt · August 14, 2001, 03:23 PM

I'd like to see a .30 carbine load with an 80 grn tapered FMJ slug.
This load would do a better job of disregarding ballistic fibres.

Halo · August 14, 2001, 04:38 PM

I have often wondered why the M2 Carbine (select-fire version) is not mentioned as being one of the precursors to the modern assault rifle. It seems to have the defining features: select-fire, intermediate cartridge, high capacity detachable magazine.

I read somewhere that, during the Battle of the Bulge, the Germans made extensive use of captured M2s. I do not know whether this was due to their own lack of supply, or because they preferred it to whatever else was available.

Mark O · August 14, 2001, 05:23 PM

Although I have three AK's here in Kali it's insane to think of them as home defense weapons.Thats why I keep my National Postal Meter M1 carbine at ready with a 15 round mag of HP's.Its a great piece of history that still has practical use.

Blue Duck357 · August 14, 2001, 09:11 PM

Love my carbine, but main problem I have with it is that practice ammo is pretty high compared to the .223 or 7.62x39 and soft points and hollowpoint prices are out of sight in my area. If anyone knows a good source let me know.

Starsfan · August 14, 2001, 09:27 PM

Blue Duck,

Don't know where you're located, but my buddy bought a case of .30 Carbine at the last gun show in Mesquite, Texas.

It is Sellior & Bellot FMJ. Prices were $80 for 500 rounds, and $150 for 1000 rounds. That's still not exactly cheap, but it beats paying over $10 a box for 50!

I've seen a LOT of the "American" calibers from S & B being imported lately. Wonder when they'll get around to FMJ .30-'06?

Hope you can find some in your neck of the woods.

stars

Blue Duck357 · August 14, 2001, 10:10 PM

Quote:

That's still not exactly cheap, but it beats paying over $10 a box for 50!

Frankly I'd consider $10 a box to my door to be good at this point. Went to a "Friend of a friends" gunstore in town because I heard he was doing badly. Didn't have anything I wanted so just to be nice and show I was not a just a hang around sort of guy I asked for a box of UMC FMJ 30 carbine ammo before I left, $15.50 before tax!!!

Marko Kloos · August 14, 2001, 10:18 PM

Georgia Arms sells non-corrosive milsurp .30 Carbine for $8.99/50. They also have soft-point loads for $13.50/50. I picked up a few bags at the local gun show last weekend.

Starsfan · August 14, 2001, 10:19 PM

Blue Duck,

OUCH man! That's a little pricey.

I always buy a few boxes of ammo, or cleaning supplies from my neighborhood gun store, but it's not too bad.

The owner must wonder if I'm ever gonna buy a firearm from him, but I can't make myself overpay for something I can buy at a gun show for $50 to $100 less.

If you can find some of that S & B .30 Carbine ammo, buy some. It shoots pretty clean, and has very decent accuracy.

stars

clem · August 14, 2001, 10:35 PM

How about a "Sabot" load for the .30 carbine?
Clem

**Mike Irwin** · August 14, 2001, 11:21 PM

Buzz,

Not sure whether you're talking about the "Official" military establishment, or the general line troops.

Anyway you cut it, though, the M 1 carbine was pretty popular with the troops simply because they were light, handy, and didn't kick a lot.

They must have been popular with the military, too, as more carbines were made than M 1 Garands by a wide margin.

Spectre · August 14, 2001, 11:28 PM

I have one next to my bed. Right next to the Marlin .45-70. Just hedging my bets.

longeyes · August 14, 2001, 11:38 PM

I'm interested in getting one, be it Gov't or IAI, down the road, but what's the advantage, if any, over a Mini-14 with TAP ammo in the mag? The M-1 is lighter but the .223 can defeat most body armor and hits harder, no?

Lord Grey Boots · August 14, 2001, 11:48 PM

I read some place that Audie Murphy used the M1 Carbine, said it worked fine at real combat distances.

For modern use, I'd load it with a JSP/JHP of some type.

**JohnKSa** · August 14, 2001, 11:49 PM

It seems that there are many who feel that the M1 Carbine is an inferior combat weapon.

Audie Murphy, the most decorated U.S. soldier in WWII often carried an M1 Carbine. In fact, in his book "To Hell and Back" he referred to it at one point as his "lucky carbine". On another occasion, he mentions specifically requesting a carbine because he said: "I don't like an M1 (Garand) for this woods fighting."

Sooooo, let's see--on the one hand we have the endorsement of a distinguished combat veteran. And on the other hand--well, I guess we don't really have anything on the other hand--do we.

August 15, 2001, 01:10 AM

JohnKSa -
Keep in mind, although most of us are working with ballistic results as opposed to actual people killing experience, an urban encounter can vary a lot from a WWII battle. In times of war, you may have to penetrate garments made to deflect ricochets and flak at worst. In today's urban environment, you may very well have intruders wearing body armor and possibly trauma plates. I don't nessecarily mean government officials either. Body armor is available to the public and anyone that is serious about making home in vasion their profession would be even dumber to not invest in some. Personally, I like the M1 Carbine and did want one real bad a few months back. I just fell in love with it's big brother, the M1 Garand, instead. I don't think anyone is foolish for choosing one for their primary home defense weapon either. Even in a worst case scenerio, I'd rather have an M1 Carbine than a handgun. I am sure anyone here that put some thought into the matter would feel the same way.

Seeker · August 15, 2001, 01:36 AM

I like my IBM M1 carbine for home defense. It is light, can be carried/fired with one hand, has a fifteen rnd mag in it and two more on the butt stock. With the bayonet fixed, I'd like to see the BG charge me in an effort to take my weapon. At close quarters it makes a real nice "point" and shoot weapon - seems with a goblin on the "point", pull the trigger and you can't miss!

I think the sound of the action being worked would have quite a psychological effect on a BG as well.

I like my carbine.

August 14, 2001, 09:51 AM	#1
Marko Kloos Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2000 Location: Enfield, NH Posts: 5,521	Fighting rifles: Why not an M1 Carbine? There are plenty of battleworthy rifles in my gun closet, but the one that's loaded up and ready for emergency use is my M1 Carbine. I keep it with a 30-round magazine in the gun, and two 15-rounders in the little butt pouch, for 60 rounds of instantly accessible "social medicine". Where the AR-15 and AK-47 usually don't get derided as MOUT/CQB rifles, some folks belittle the M-1 Carbine as little more than a pistol with a buttstock, woefully underpowered and inadequate for serious fighting. Among the list of deficiencies are an "underpowered" round, limited range, and short sight radius for a rifle. I happen to think that the M1 Carbine makes a fine and handy fighting tool. It has a bunch of features I find very desirable in a rifle, and its drawbacks are usually a non-issue for the kind of scenario any of us might encounter. The Carbine is very light, handy, can be held and fired one-handed if necessary, and it swings around extremely quick. Rate of fire is as high as any other semi-auto, recoil is very mild, and the sights are fairly good for an infantry rifle. The ammo is not a main battle rifle cartridge, but it has more punch than a pistol round and is perfectly adequate for the typical engagement distance of 300 yards or less. The ammo is lighter than most other rifle ammo and very compact, which means that the rifleman can carry more ammo with less bulk. Listening to the detractors of the M1 Carbine, I always get reminded of the fact that while it was designed as a rear echelon & support personnel weapon, the Marines in the South Pacific thought it made a dandy fighting rifle. They loved the little carbine, and Marines know a thing or two about rifles and infantry combat. If it was good enough to be taken up the shores of Iwo Jima with the Marines, it's certainly good enough for me. Bottom line: Next time you're looking for a centerfire semi-auto rifle that won't break the bank, has a ready supply of cheap 15- and 30-round magazines, is one of the handiest fighting rifles ever built, can be shot at most indoor pistol ranges, and is just plain fun to shoot, consider an M1 Carbine. There's a very good two-page article on the M1 Carbine and its viability as a LEO rifle in this month's S.W.A.T. Magazine, by the way.

August 14, 2001, 10:56 AM	#3
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	If you're willing to live with the Carbine's restrictions, short range and low power for a rifle-class weapon, it is a fine rifle. Even with those restrictions, though, the Carbine still gives you greater power than a handgun, greater range than a handgun, easier hitting ability than a handgun, and generally a lot more shots than a handgun. Marine use of the Carbine wasn't based on the Marines' knowledge of fighting rifles so much as it was on the desire of some Marines to cut the weight they had to carry, especially during beach assaults. That was the same reason that the Carbine was so popular with Airborne troops. There were exceptions, though. Some Marines and Airborn troops would trade their Carbines for the longer range and greater power offered by the M 1 Garand. My great-uncle was in the 82nd Airborne during WW II, and made all of the drops made by the 82nd and never was wounded (lucky damned man). In one of the only war stories he ever told me, he said that he couldn't finagle a submachine gun so early on traded for an M 1 Garand even though it increased his payload. My first choice for an "anti-social" rifle is my SKS. It's what I have. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 14, 2001, 05:23 PM	#12
Mark O Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2000 Posts: 117	Although I have three AK's here in Kali it's insane to think of them as home defense weapons.Thats why I keep my National Postal Meter M1 carbine at ready with a 15 round mag of HP's.Its a great piece of history that still has practical use. Last edited by Mark O; August 14, 2001 at 05:51 PM.

August 14, 2001, 11:21 PM	#19
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	Buzz, Not sure whether you're talking about the "Official" military establishment, or the general line troops. Anyway you cut it, though, the M 1 carbine was pretty popular with the troops simply because they were light, handy, and didn't kick a lot. They must have been popular with the military, too, as more carbines were made than M 1 Garands by a wide margin. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 14, 2001, 10:34 AM	#2
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	I always find it interesting how some people will deride the carbine as obsolete, but then say that the MP 5 is the be all end all of weapons. The carbine is a great little gun.

August 14, 2001, 11:05 AM	#4
buzz_knox Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 1999 Location: Knoxville, in the Free State of Tennesse Posts: 4,190	According to most accounts, both the Army and the Marines were actually unhappy with the M1 Carbine during World War II and Korea.

August 14, 2001, 11:26 AM	#5
DeputyVaughn Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 300	There is an interesting personal account of a man's "love affair" with the M-1 Carbine in this months issue of "Soldier of Fortune". Scott A. Vaughn

August 14, 2001, 12:34 PM	#6
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	The M-1 Carbine came about as a replacement for the 1911A1 for officers and truck drivers and suchlike folks. A 100-grain bullet at around 2,000 ft/sec just isn't a true combat rifle cartridge, particularly with a full-patch bullet. I once worked with a guy who was a Marine Corps medic in the South Pacific. He told me that Japanese patrols wouldn't even break stride if fired upon by a Carbine at anything over 500 or so yards. When they heard a Garand, they would scatter. Inside 100 yards? Low stress? Heart/head hits? Fine. FWIW, Art

August 14, 2001, 01:08 PM	#7
PreserveFreedom Guest Posts: n/a	The only thing holding me back from getting an M1 Carbine for a battle rifle is that I don't think the 30 Carbine round will do well against armor. Ather than that, I think it is the ultimate for unarmored urban warfare. The 30 Carbine is a nice little round and I can't think of a better platform to launch it from.

August 14, 2001, 01:08 PM	#8
Nanaimo Barr Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Location: North Idaho Posts: 1,024	gotta agree with lendringser here, I keep a M1 handy with a 15 rd in and a 30 beside it, just the ticket around here what with the Coyotes and serial killers (we had one pass within a mile late last month, I mean both a coyote and a serial killer) gotta love those Soft Points.... NB

August 14, 2001, 02:45 PM	#9
Hawkman Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2000 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 447	Guess I'll come out of the closet and admit that my Inland M-1 Carbine stands in the closet with a 30 round mag and two 15's as spares...

August 14, 2001, 03:23 PM	#10
duck hunt Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2000 Posts: 481	I'd like to see a .30 carbine load with an 80 grn tapered FMJ slug. This load would do a better job of disregarding ballistic fibres.

August 14, 2001, 04:38 PM	#11
Halo Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2000 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 408	I have often wondered why the M2 Carbine (select-fire version) is not mentioned as being one of the precursors to the modern assault rifle. It seems to have the defining features: select-fire, intermediate cartridge, high capacity detachable magazine. I read somewhere that, during the Battle of the Bulge, the Germans made extensive use of captured M2s. I do not know whether this was due to their own lack of supply, or because they preferred it to whatever else was available.

August 14, 2001, 09:11 PM	#13
Blue Duck357 Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2000 Posts: 1,460	Love my carbine, but main problem I have with it is that practice ammo is pretty high compared to the .223 or 7.62x39 and soft points and hollowpoint prices are out of sight in my area. If anyone knows a good source let me know.

August 14, 2001, 09:27 PM	#14
Starsfan Member Join Date: April 22, 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 69	Blue Duck, Don't know where you're located, but my buddy bought a case of .30 Carbine at the last gun show in Mesquite, Texas. It is Sellior & Bellot FMJ. Prices were $80 for 500 rounds, and $150 for 1000 rounds. That's still not exactly cheap, but it beats paying over $10 a box for 50! I've seen a LOT of the "American" calibers from S & B being imported lately. Wonder when they'll get around to FMJ .30-'06? Hope you can find some in your neck of the woods. stars

August 14, 2001, 10:18 PM	#16
Marko Kloos Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2000 Location: Enfield, NH Posts: 5,521	Georgia Arms sells non-corrosive milsurp .30 Carbine for $8.99/50. They also have soft-point loads for $13.50/50. I picked up a few bags at the local gun show last weekend.

August 14, 2001, 10:19 PM	#17
Starsfan Member Join Date: April 22, 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 69	Blue Duck, OUCH man! That's a little pricey. I always buy a few boxes of ammo, or cleaning supplies from my neighborhood gun store, but it's not too bad. The owner must wonder if I'm ever gonna buy a firearm from him, but I can't make myself overpay for something I can buy at a gun show for $50 to $100 less. If you can find some of that S & B .30 Carbine ammo, buy some. It shoots pretty clean, and has very decent accuracy. stars

August 14, 2001, 10:35 PM	#18
clem Junior member Join Date: April 17, 2001 Location: Arizona Territory Posts: 847	How about a "Sabot" load for the .30 carbine? Clem

August 14, 2001, 11:28 PM	#20
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	I have one next to my bed. Right next to the Marlin .45-70. Just hedging my bets.

August 14, 2001, 11:38 PM	#21
longeyes Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2000 Location: True West Posts: 1,350	I'm interested in getting one, be it Gov't or IAI, down the road, but what's the advantage, if any, over a Mini-14 with TAP ammo in the mag? The M-1 is lighter but the .223 can defeat most body armor and hits harder, no?

August 14, 2001, 11:48 PM	#22
Lord Grey Boots Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Snohomish, WA Posts: 510	I read some place that Audie Murphy used the M1 Carbine, said it worked fine at real combat distances. For modern use, I'd load it with a JSP/JHP of some type.

August 14, 2001, 11:49 PM	#23
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 25,571	It seems that there are many who feel that the M1 Carbine is an inferior combat weapon. Audie Murphy, the most decorated U.S. soldier in WWII often carried an M1 Carbine. In fact, in his book "To Hell and Back" he referred to it at one point as his "lucky carbine". On another occasion, he mentions specifically requesting a carbine because he said: "I don't like an M1 (Garand) for this woods fighting." Sooooo, let's see--on the one hand we have the endorsement of a distinguished combat veteran. And on the other hand--well, I guess we don't really have anything on the other hand--do we.

August 15, 2001, 01:10 AM	#24
PreserveFreedom Guest Posts: n/a	JohnKSa - Keep in mind, although most of us are working with ballistic results as opposed to actual people killing experience, an urban encounter can vary a lot from a WWII battle. In times of war, you may have to penetrate garments made to deflect ricochets and flak at worst. In today's urban environment, you may very well have intruders wearing body armor and possibly trauma plates. I don't nessecarily mean government officials either. Body armor is available to the public and anyone that is serious about making home in vasion their profession would be even dumber to not invest in some. Personally, I like the M1 Carbine and did want one real bad a few months back. I just fell in love with it's big brother, the M1 Garand, instead. I don't think anyone is foolish for choosing one for their primary home defense weapon either. Even in a worst case scenerio, I'd rather have an M1 Carbine than a handgun. I am sure anyone here that put some thought into the matter would feel the same way.

August 15, 2001, 01:36 AM	#25
Seeker Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2001 Location: Lacomb, Oregon Posts: 1,393	I like my IBM M1 carbine for home defense. It is light, can be carried/fired with one hand, has a fifteen rnd mag in it and two more on the butt stock. With the bayonet fixed, I'd like to see the BG charge me in an effort to take my weapon. At close quarters it makes a real nice "point" and shoot weapon - seems with a goblin on the "point", pull the trigger and you can't miss! I think the sound of the action being worked would have quite a psychological effect on a BG as well. I like my carbine.