Smith & Wesson Agreement Revisited.

[Gunslinger]

My apologies up front to the staff for resurrecting this horse, which we all agree has been flogged to within an inch of it's equine existance. However, there are other threads in which the issue is again coming up and I thought it best to once again consolidate it in one topic rather than scatter it all of the board.

Bold indicates areas of the agreement that I have high lighted.
Italics are my reponses to those areas of the agreement.

Gunslinger/Bill

AGREEMENT BETWEEN SMITH & WESSON AND
THE DEPARTMENTS OF THE TREASURY AND HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT,
LOCAL GOVERNMENTS AND STATES

SUMMARY OF TERMS

Preamble: The city, state, county and federal parties agree to dismiss the parties from the pending suits and refrain from filing suits against the manufacturer parties based on an equivalent cause of action.

SAFETY AND DESIGN

All handguns must meet the following safety and design standards:

Second "hidden" serial number, to prevent criminals from obliterating serial numbers.

External locking device sold with all guns within 60 days.
Internal locking device on all guns within 24 months.
Smart Guns -- Authorized User Technology.
Are guns going to be operable after these are added? Or more likely will guns soon become not a defensive devise but rather a hobby item to be taken out, unlocked and shot as a sport only?

Manufacturers commit 2% of annual firearms revenues to the development of authorized user technology.
Within 36 months, authorized user technology will be included in all new firearm models, with the exception of curios and collectors’ firearms.
See above.

If top eight manufacturers agree, authorized user technology will be included in all new firearms.
This is the reason we are boycotting Smith. To prevent seven others from jumping on the bandwagon. It is working.

Child Safety. Within 12 months, handguns will be designed so they cannot be readily operated by a child under 6.
I believe it was mentioned this would be done by increasing all trigger pulls to ten pounds or more.

Performance test. All firearms will be subject to a performance test to ensure safety and quality.
Who is going to perform these test? What will the standards be? Would it be easy for some government to simply say that none of them pass and therefore eliminate all sales?

Drop test. All firearms will be subject to a test to ensure they do not fire when dropped.
All pistols must meet the following additional requirements:

Safety device. Positive manually operated safety device.
Magazine disconnectors must be available on all pistols to customers who desire the feature, within 12 months.
Chamber load indicators on all pistols, showing whether the pistol is loaded, within 12 months.
Large capacity magazines. New firearm designs will not be able to accept large-capacity magazines that were manufactured prior to September 1994. (Manufacture of such magazines has been prohibited since that date.)
Law enforcement and military exception. If law enforcement agencies or the military certify the need, exceptions to these requirements may be made. Manufacturers will ask that these guns not be resold to the civilian market.

Warnings about safe storage and handling included with all firearms within six months.

Illegal firearms. Manufacturers will not sell firearms that can readily be converted into fully automatic weapons or that are resistant to fingerprints.



SALES AND DISTRIBUTION

Code of Conduct. The manufacturers will sell only to authorized dealers and distributors and allow their authorized distributors to sell only to authorized dealers.

All authorized dealers and distributors will agree to a code of conduct. If manufacturers receive notice of a violation by an authorized dealer or distributor, they will take action against the dealer or distributor, including termination of sales to the dealer or distributor. The Oversight Commission will review such actions and have authority to require termination or suspension if warranted.
I love this. Code of conduct? Oversight commission? Yeah right.

The code of conduct will require authorized dealers and distributors to:

Gun shows: make no gun show sales unless all sales at the gun show are completed only after a background check.
Well, they finally got rid of that pesky gun show "loop hole" we keep hearing about.

Brady checks: wait as long as necessary for a completed Brady check showing that the purchaser is not a felon or otherwise prohibited before selling a gun to the purchaser.

Safety training for purchasers: transfer firearms only to individuals who have passed certified safety course or exam and demonstrate to purchasers how to use all safety devices and how to load, unload, and safely store the firearm before completing the sale.
Nothing needs to be said about this part.

Multiple handgun sales: all purchasers of multiple handguns to take only one handgun from the store on the day of sale, at which point a multiple sales report will be filed with ATF. The remainder of the guns can only be collected after 14 days.
See comment above about the training.

Employee training: require all employees to attend ATF-approved training and to pass a exam on firearms laws, straw purchasers, illegal trafficking indicators, and gun safety.
Insurance: carry liability insurance where available, with a minimum coverage of $1 million for each incident.
I'm sure this will not affect prices. Your dealer will not be out any money to train all of his/her employees at this government approved school or their insurance premiums will not increase.

Inventory control: maintain an electronic inventory tracking plan within 24 months
Wonder who will use that information. Surely not the government.

Security: implement a security plan for securing firearms.
Child access: require persons under 18 to be accompanied by adults in gun stores or gun sections of stores.

Weapons attractive to criminals: not sell large capacity magazines or semiautomatic assault weapons.
No comment needed here either.

Compliance: provide law enforcement, government regulators, and the Oversight Commission established in this Agreement with access to documents necessary to determine compliance; cooperate fully in the Agreement’s Oversight mechanism.
Crime gun traces: maintain an electronic record of all ATF trace requests and report trace requests to manufacturers.
This will certainly make it easier for the boys at ATF to know who we are, what we've bought and where we are at all times.

Indicted dealers: forgo firearms sales to licensed dealers known to be under indictment.
Straw purchasers: not to make sales to straw purchasers.
Manufacturer commitments. Manufacturers will:

Provide quarterly sales data to ATF.
Not market guns in any manner designed to appeal to juveniles or criminals.
Refrain from selling any modified/sporterized semi-automatic pistol of type that cannot be imported into U.S.
Reaffirm policy of not placing advertisements in vicinity of schools, high crime zones, and public housing.
Implement a security plan for securing firearms.
Designate an officer to ensure compliance with the Agreement.
Corporate responsibility for crime gun traces. If an authorized dealer or distributor has a disproportionate number of crime guns traced to it within three years of sale, the manufacturers will take action, including possible termination or suspension, against the dealer or distributor. The Oversight Commission will review such actions and have authority to require termination or suspension if warranted.

Oversight Commission...will be established and empowered to oversee implementation of the Agreement. The Commission will have five members selected as follows:
one by manufacturers; two by city and county parties; one by state parties; one by ATF.
Well, that about says it all doesn't it?

The Commission’s powers will include the authority to review compliance with the design and safety requirements, review the safety and training program for dealer and distributor employees, review manufacturer actions against dealers or distributors that violate the Agreement or have a disproportionate number of crime gun traces, and require suspension or termination if warranted.

Role of ATF. To the extent consistent with law, ATF will work with manufacturers and the Oversight Commission to assist them in meeting obligations under the Agreement. ATF will notify the Oversight Commission of certain violations of the Agreement by distributors and dealers if it uncovers such violations.

Ballistics Imaging. Within six months, if technologically available, manufacturers will fire all firearms before sale and will enter the digital image of the casings in a system compatible with the National Integrated Ballistics Identification Network and accessible to ATF. This will enable law enforcement to trace crime guns when only the bullets or casings are recovered.

Access 2000. Manufacturers shall participate in ATF’s Access 2000 program, which establishes electronic links with ATF and enables high-speed tracing of crime guns.

Legislation. The parties will work together to support legislative efforts to reduce firearm misuse and the development of authorized user technology.
Great. The firearms industry can be forced to work with Kennedy and clan. Hope they stay the Hell away from water when they're with Ted.

Education trust fund. Upon resolution of all current city, state, and county lawsuits, manufacturers will dedicate 1% of overall firearms revenues to an education trust fund.

Most favored entity. If other manufacturers enter agreements with more expansive design and distribution reforms, and those manufacturers, along with the manufacturer parties to this Agreement, account for fifty percent or more of United States handgun sales, the manufacturer parties to this Agreement will agree to abide by the same reforms.

Enforcement. The Agreement will be entered into and enforceable as a court order and as a contract.

[BigG]

Oh, puh-le-ase... OK, I'll stop.

[cuerno de chivo]

It has never been enforced.

[Gunslinger]

it does not have to be. If seven manufactures sign it then it becomes law without ever reaching your or my elected officials. You can bet that the "commission" and the ATF will dang well enforce it then.
We boycott to discourage six more from joining it.

[cuerno de chivo]

Taurus has built-in, non-removable gun locks.

Ruger has always refused to make guns for the concealed carry market or "assault rifles" for civillians. They even invented the Hi-Cap mag ban.

Sig Sauer is a pioneer in smart gun technology.

You know my opinion of you. It applies to most other boycotters as well.

[Zander]

"You know my opinion of you. It applies to most other boycotters as well."

Who cares? <shrug>

The boycott worked...and in working prevented the implementation of government fascism in the firearms industry.

We, the boycotters, managed to apply the ~coup de grace~ to a management team that sought nothing less than the dissolution of our Rights as American citizens.

And the whiners who acted like spoiled brats because they preferred to compromise our Rights just so they could purchase the latest *&* toy?

Who cares?

[C.R.Sam]

"We boycott to discourage six more from joining it."

Amen

Sam

[citizen]

"The truth shall make you free."
(forgot the author)


Thanks, Gunny.

[griz]

Would it be OK with you if the 2nd Amendment was repealed? There wouldn't be any different laws to enforce, at least for a little while.

[Mike Irwin]

"Taurus has built in gunlocks."

But they don't have built-in oversight, in the form of a comission, that includes ATF.

It continues to amaze, as well as disgust and dishearten, me that so many people look at this agreement, shrugh their shoulders and say "so what?"

To avoid an ENORMOUS row, I won't post my opinion of those individuals.

[Charmedlyfe]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Yes the agreement sucked. Yes, the boycott killed S&W. Yes, I supported it. Yes, I CONTINUE to support it.

No, it does NOT affect the entire industry, only those companies that sign the agreement. Even if seven more companies signed the agreement, it could NOT be used against a company that DID NOT sign it. Legal precedent is clearly against that interpretation that would make authorized user tech mandatory on firearms produced by non-signers. Same with 2% issue.....

If a dealer doesn't want to put up with the BS, don't carry S&W products. Only dealers stocking S&W are affected.

No, I don't like bad law, nor do I like the idea of an agency usurping the rights of elected officials to make laws, as the BATF (the BATBOYS) clearly are trying to do in this case. I also DO NOT like people misreading and misinterpreting law. This is an important issue, and I would hope that one of the JDs on the board would analyze this and give us an opinion.

[Mike Irwin]

And you're STILL wrong -- the S&W agreem DOES affect the entire industry.

I've explained that to you several times. Obviously you don't agree, or we wouldn't be seeing the same incorrect claim.

[Gino]

At the last gunshow I lingered over a S&W 357 revolver and really, really wanted to buy it. But I didn't and I won't. Count me as one more shooter who will neither buy NOR RECOMMEND any S&W product until this agreement is negated.

[Ed Brunner]

The boycott most definitely has worked. The problem is that it is harder for the govt to control a domestic manufacturer. A foreign product can be banned from import by the stroke of a pen. We need to continue to fight the unconstitutional gun controlling laws that are proliferated on an almost daily basis. To me the solution is an instant invalidation of any and all laws that infringe upon my right to keep and bear arms. Essentially what I am saying is that we must not be distracted from our main objective.

Effective problem solving begins with being able to define the problem in terms of a solution. The solution to gun control is simple. Anything else is weeing in the wind.

[Mike Irwin]

A little question for all of you who think that the agreement just isn't that big of a thing... especially now that Bush is in the White House.

If the agreement isn't rescinded, what do you think will happen when the next Clintonesque Democrat gets into the White House, probably in 3.5 years?

How long do you think it will be before it IS enforced?

Care to take a guess?

[Robert the41MagFan]

You gentlemen are thinking in terms of black and white, with no gray area. Stop thinking "honest" for a moment and think political. If any party, whether the government or the current S&W rescinds on this non existent agreement, it validates the agreement. If it is left alone, it will just blow away. It was dirt to begin with. Deals between tyrants and back stabbers are worthless junk and there is not a court in America that would uphold this agreement. Someone would have sued already.

Look, it has been over a year since the signing was done and was suppose to have already been implemented. It simply has not! No star chamber commission, no safety training, no codes of conduct (yet!), no one gun a month, no special insurance and no 2% of sale to anyone. This thing is DOA.

Where the problem exist is that the agreement sets a new standard on which all companies will do business and in that note all companies are complying. It is already happening and there is no turning the clocks back now. Simply put, Klinton and S&W kicked our collective a$$. The faster we admit it, we got our noses bloodied, the quicker we can regroup and do battle again. Another day!

So flip the page and move on!

Robert

[Gunslinger]

Thank you Robert. You just made my point for me. You are correct in that it has not been enforced and nothing has came of it.
Now why do you suppose that is? Do you suppose that it may be because for once gun owners stood united and refused to support the company that signed into the agreement and in doing so kept other manufactures from following suit? Do you further suppose that if we gun owners would have continued buying Smiths as though nothing had happened that the others would have followed suit and it be enforced and we would all be living under the terms out lined in it above?
No, I would say that if anyone kicked anyones ass we, the gun owners, kicked theirs and not the other way around. Frankly I'm proud of us (gun owners) as a group that we have stood this firmly.

[Waitone]

The biggest single mistake we can make is to assume that since the agreement was not enforced that it will not be an issue in the future. Anti-constitutionalists litter the legal landscape with seemingly irrational provisions of law for no apparent reason. Years later one or more of those provisions are knitted together with new provisions and presto chango a law exists that would not been possible had it been proposed all at one time.

I will guarantee you that when democrats regain more power than they have right now the S&W agreement will be hauled out and used in the construction of new laws or regulations. Permit me to offer a forecast of future action. McCain-Leiberman (S. 890) in part II calls for expanding Virginia's Project Exile to a national program. I opposed that move. Why? Because I believe Project Exile to be the basis for summary imposition of penalty. Project Exile on a national basis is to gun control as Zero Tolerance is to education. We all know the stupidity exhibited by the educational establishment, image the stupidity and damage to be done when you take Zero Tolerance and have it enforce by people who know nothing about the second amendment and firearms. Could the idiocy of Zero Tolerance be legislated? I think not, but it can be administratively created.

[Rich Lucibella]

You're right, Bill...this really is getting old. Those of us who boycotted will not change our positions. Those who did not are no more likely to.

Exacly what is the point of posting this entire Agreement, yet again, except to make the same comments, yet again? Why don't I find it posted on your own site? Which is better, 9mm or 45auto? Weaver or Isoceles? Glock or 1911?

Give it a rest.
Rich Lucibella

[Southla1]

Like I have said before............If I want a Smith I will buy it..........USED!!!! and from an individual not a dealer!

[Mike Irwin]

Hey Robert41,

You know, where politicians are concerned, it's very funny how "dead" issues just keep coming back to life.

There are hundreds of laws and agreements that are still active, but aren't being enforced.

But that all changes once someone with a bug in his butt decides that it's time to enforce it.

So, I'll ask you again.

Care to make any bets as to what might happen when the next Democrat takes up residence in the White House?

Can you tell me with absolute CERTAINTY, certainty that you'd bet YOUR RIGHTS on, that a Democrat (or even a Republican like John McCain), wouldn't begin enforcement of the agreement?

Could I interest you in some oceanfront property in New Mexico?

[Gunslinger]

Rich, you are correct and in my opening post in this topic I did take the time to apologize for reposting the agreement again.
To respond to your questions;
The point of reposting the agreement was to illustrate some of the terms of the agreement with bold type in hopes that those that merely scan over the lengthy dialog would take the time to actually read it rather than glance at it. (That has been mentioned here in the past by members, "Yeah, I glanced at it.")
The reason you do not see it posted on my board is because thus far none of my members have asked specific questions about purchasing a new Smith & Wesson. Rest assured that when that happens, and I know eventually it will, the agreement will be posted by me and more than likely will find itself in a link at the top of the board.
I see this as far too important to the RKBA to simply sit back and remain silent. I do not expect to convince those hardcore members that believe there is nothing wrong with purchasing a new Smith. But I do, however, feel an obligation to inform new people/members that may be new to the shooting "sports" and the board that may not be aware of the agreement and the threat it poses to our collective rights. Right now there are several discussions in the two handgun forums relating to the purchase on new Smiths. I had honestly believed, and still do, that it was better to confine the discussion to one thread rather than supporters and distrators carrying on the discussion in numerous threads.
Again my apologies for rehashing a dead horse. But this is a damned important deceased equine if we are to keep our rights as we know them and not them as HUD, Clinton and Smith & Wesson, et. al. would like to see them become.

Bill

[Rich Lucibella]

Bill-
With all due respect, we have a Staff that monitors these forums, including "those carrying on the discussion in numerous threads". If these topics needed to be "confined", Staff would have done so. They do a pretty good job here, I think, and, when they don't, you need only email them for action or response.

You've only succeeded to add one more thread to what you already term "numerous" threads on the subject. To what end? Your thoughts could, just as easily, have been added to those "other threads", could they not? As for the "apology", I just don't get it...if you can apologize in advance for something, you can avoid the need for the apology altogether.

While I might appreciate your intent, I'm less than enthusiastic about your effort. We've seen this Agreement in it's entirety more than once and there is an ability on these Boards to post excerpts as others have done.

That said, this thread is closed, in favor of those on the same subject that preceded it. If you'd like to pursue this, kindly resurrect one of the other threads.
Rich