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Old February 6, 2001, 06:17 PM   #1
Meiji_man
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And I'm assuming George Hill will be reading this in a minute....

With all this talk about power/penetration, "knock down" etc. I took a look at The Firearms Tactical Institute and noticed they had stats for a Glock 30 shooting 230 grn Hydroshoks.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tact...article415.htm

Being a Penetration kind of guy I was dismayed to see that the Glock 30 with a 3.8" barrel was only getting 12.9" of penetration in bare gelatin. Denim covered penetration was 18+ inches. (18+ because the rounds left the block at 18" and was lost.

So now I'm left wondering if the 230 grn Hydro-shok is a good round for a 4" or less barrel? Now I Really want to chono out my Compact, and since abunch of us Utah Types are going out in a few weeks to fight the Grasshoppers I'm wondering if anyone has any home penetration tests?
So here is my idea; if each of us buys a different box of the "good stuff" Then we could test it all on Skyder's Chrono. and maybe whatever penetration tests we can come up with. Taking all this from the Theory to the Reality!

I'll post on the Utah message and try and get people looking this way.
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Old February 6, 2001, 07:47 PM   #2
George Hill
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Yeah, the problem that the Hydra has from small tubes - because for some brilliant reason that Federal loaded it so weak - is that its too slow to expand reliably. 50FPS can make the difference. That can be 1 layer of denium or 2 t-shirts.
124 grain subsonics in 9MM do the same. They overpenetrate because they didnt get enough hydrodynamic pressure inside the cavity to initiate expansion.

This is why in shorter barreled guns I prefer my bullets a little lighter to counter the velocity lost cause of length.
My Detonics? I am using 165 Grainers at 1150 FPS, giving me reliable expansion with a DPF of 85.39. Not bad. But that rating is out of a full length 1911 Government model. With the short tube my spped is reduced... I estimate 1050. This leaves me with a DPF of 77.97. Happily, this is still very good and over 50.
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Old February 6, 2001, 07:48 PM   #3
Cheapo
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I suggest constructing a nice "Fackler Box"(note1) to simultaneously simulate the Jello stuff, which is itself a tissue simulant. Put the nearest end of the box maybe 10 feet downrange from the nearest Chrono screen.

Buy lotsa gallon Ziplocs!

Pack plenty of water.

Maybe even mount a water recovery tank below the Fackler Box.

Divide by 1.6, IIRC, to get the estimated Jello penetration on one or two of the shots you chrono. Three would be best, but only if you have a staff to replace water bags while you recover slugs and note depth of penetration.

(Note1--haven't some of us been critical of gunworld folks inventing things so they can name it after themselves? Once specific was flashlight techniques. Is M. Fackler an ego dude too?)
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Old February 6, 2001, 08:35 PM   #4
George Hill
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Funny - I made the same box plenty of times and called it the Kodiac Box...
Go Figure...
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Old February 6, 2001, 09:21 PM   #5
FPrice
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George,

I was interested in your reply about using 165 gr bullets (I am assuming that you meant Fed H-S, if I am wrong, please let me know). I also have a Detonics CombatMaster and have been trying to settle on a good self-defense round. The 165 gr H-S seemed to be a good answer, but I have also tried the 185 W-W STHP. Silver Tips always seem to give me pretty good accuracy, better than almost any other round I have used, so I feel better about shot placement.

The only other concern I have had is finding a good concealment holster. Most of them I have tried have too much of the pistol too high, resulting in poor concealment, i.e., the butt sticks out from my body. The best solution I have found was a Yaqui-slide type holster with a retention strap. But, since i prefer inside the waistband, this was another compromise i did not like.

Frosty
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Old February 6, 2001, 09:46 PM   #6
George Hill
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Nope

Cor-Bons. If I can't get Cor-Bons I use Tritons.
I like it spicy.
Now, my other 1911 types get milder 230gr loaded to standard pressures.
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Old February 6, 2001, 11:38 PM   #7
Meiji_man
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165 Grn Cor-bons eh?

I was thinking of going to a 200 grn HydroShok but I noticed on that chart, and this is just a theory, that the reasons why the Hydro's Penetrated though is that the mouths of the rounds plugged.

Wanna try a few though a Chrony?

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Old February 7, 2001, 12:31 AM   #8
JerryM
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I wish I had kept the article, but I read of a test with the 5', Commander 4.25", and a 3.5" barrel. The most consistent load was the old Speer/CCI 200 gr "flying ashtray." It expanded even from the 3.5" barrel. I don't know if the current 200 gr Gold Dot would expand the same or not.
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Old February 7, 2001, 02:35 AM   #9
Alaska Roy
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Estimates & Guesstimates?

Hey all, I clocked some new Hornady Customs out of a 5in Colt Elite at 1025fps, these are the Plus P 230gn XTPs. The shortest .45acp I own is a Kimber Pro-Carry that about the same as a Colt Commander and the Hornady Customs clocked 940fps, that's a fair load with a 230gner! I'm wondering why the trend towards lighter bullets in the old .45acp? Roy
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Old February 7, 2001, 01:01 PM   #10
George Hill
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The Hornady is one of my favorites. Yeah - its pretty fast.
But the barrel of a Detonics and pistols of the same size is shorter than even other compact .45s. I am of the feeling that I need a lighter bullet to maintain the velocity.
Meji, the Hydras, like ANY hollow point can be plugged. A plugged HP acts like ball and will over penetrate... Just like an HP that failed to expand because it didn't have the speed to force it open.
Terminal Balistics is such a dynamic subject that even little variables have huge outcomes.
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Old February 7, 2001, 02:00 PM   #11
Meiji_man
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My biggest worry though is the 12.9" penetration when the round DID expand. I'm a firm beleaver in the 12"-16" Minimum. I actually always expect the round NOT to expand, that's why I shoot .45's they come pre-expanded.
So I talked to my buddy who's comming to the shoot. He's interested in the test too. He's got a Kimber CDP with a 2 1/2 inch barrel and also wonders about the penetration problem. So are you in too?

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Old February 7, 2001, 03:38 PM   #12
RickB
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I chrono'd twenty 230 Hydra-Shoks from my Combat Master, and they averaged 852fps. I suspected the chrono was acting up, but the recoil from those rounds was much sharper than that from my IPSC/IDPA load(230@830 from 5"), so I'm confident the chrono told no lies. The 165's had less recoil than the 230's, but they also have a huge fireball that doesn't seem appropriate in a self-defense round. Since expansion is no sure thing, I'll take the penetration of the 230.
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Old February 7, 2001, 04:57 PM   #13
Red Label
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Good round for my Llama Minimax .45?

Hi again guys. I just got a Llama Minimax .45 at a pawnshop last week. I eventually intend to upgrade to a Kimber, but in the meantime I am wondering what I should be carrying for defense. I bought the Fed Hydro-shock 165 grainers. But I've been reading a lot about Cor-bon and other +P loads. Should I be using those? And the real question for me is, does anyone out there know anything about the Llama Minimax series of pistols? It seems like a decent 1911 copy, but is it sturdy enough to fire the heavy stuff?
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Old February 7, 2001, 07:27 PM   #14
George Hill
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Should you be using those?
Short answer... No.
Expanded answer is that A. +P loads may not be required if the gun performs well and you have enough terminal balistics to keep you satisfied. B. Your pistol may not be able to stand up to +P energies.
A good load for your little Llama? I'ld suggest Speer Gold Dots or Hornady XTP's or some good old Golden Sabers..
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Old February 7, 2001, 07:55 PM   #15
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Thanks George. I will look into those rounds. I will avoid the +P stuff until after I get my Kimber.
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