The one problem gun-banners have

Oleg Volk · July 12, 2002, 11:25 PM

Look at this picture reminds me the usual question I have for the antis: "People already have guns and want to keep them. Now what?"

They tend to either say "not much we can do" or "make them not wan tto have guns" or (most frequently) "take them by force!" Go from there to make them realize the contradiction of their own position...ostensibly against violence but leading to it quite directly.

Kaylee · July 12, 2002, 11:53 PM

The trouble, of course, is that they've already figured out the answer to this one. You can keep what you have, they'll just work to make illegal to get any more. And eventually, illegal or prohibitively expensive to get ammuniton or components.

Of course, all that really means is that by the time it comes to open conflict (if ever) the Molon Labe folks will be a generation or two behind the technology curve for the first few months of the conflict. But then.... a 1950's Remington deer gun looks an awful lot like an M40 to me....

Heck, for that matter the local black powder guys are shooting repro Sharps at ranges that would make most EBR devotees cringe. I'd say a dug up Colt SAA in 2109 would be more effective than a Liberator pistol, whether the Ninjaboys are using blasters yet or not.

-K

jimpeel · July 13, 2002, 12:00 AM

Even if they manage to repeal the Second Amendment, they face the myriad Constitutions of the states that use the unambiguous language of "person", "individual", "his", "their", etc. There are 32 states that have an individual right to arms in their Constitutions.

I guess the antis will have to move to the other 18.

KSFreeman · July 13, 2002, 09:34 AM

O.K., I've read it several times and I am still confused. Just how exactly are the antis being contradictory???

There is a position that favors violence. They will use violence to enforce their will as they have in other countries and now here in this country.

"Safety", "crime", "the children" is nothing more than a smokescreen for their violent agenda. I need help understanding this one.

Oleg Volk · July 13, 2002, 11:16 AM

It helps to separate the "ends justify means" psychos from the "useful idiots" who might be rehabilitated if they understood what they were really advocating.

NIGHTWATCH · July 13, 2002, 11:33 AM

What kind of rifle is that women holding? Anybody?

And does anyone have her address?

Oleg Volk · July 13, 2002, 11:41 AM

The rear sight of that rifle is a give-away.

Quartus · July 13, 2002, 07:30 PM

I do believe Oleg has her address.

NIGHTWATCH · July 13, 2002, 11:18 PM

I dont have a clue as to what kind of rifle she is holding. I know little, if anything about rifles. What type of rifle is that?

Thanks.

Beowulf_93 · July 14, 2002, 12:36 AM

Looks like a Spanish Civil Guards Mauser converted to .308 when Spain joined NATO. A few years back, they were fairly common, then dried up.

The anti's realize their position: it is the same stance taken by other totalitarian regimes in history. They wish to impose their will upon the country through the force of arms, which would be a tremendously difficult task if their henchmen were sent home in body bags.
Solzhenitsyn, in the 1st volume of "The Gulag Archipelago", speculates after his detention on the effect armed resistance would have had upon the NKVD's arrests: " And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive & had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood that they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?" He continues further: "The Organs ( being the NKVD) would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!" ( Taken verbatim from "The Gulag Archipelago", Vol 1, p. 13).
It is clear what a passive attitude creates, sheep led to the slaughter. We, however, are in the historically unique situation of possessing the effective means of resistance. Like Kaylee said, even an old single action beats a Liberator, and there were tons of gutsy Phillipinoes who used those things to get an Arisaka & some ammo to use later.

Lord Grey Boots · July 14, 2002, 03:40 AM

Tis a FR-8. Handy little 308 carbine.

WyldOne · July 15, 2002, 11:58 AM

"People already have guns and want to keep them. Now what?"

Quote:

"make them not want to have guns"

That was always my answer. Ooops.

Veloce851 · July 15, 2002, 12:35 PM

another problem... and I would love to get a picture of this.
But the next time one of these anti groups is having a rally...
Could someone get a picture of an officer standing guard (as police tend to be on site and guard ANY large gathering of people)
Perhaps a good picture of a guard standing there with his side arm in plain site of an anti slogan sign.
That would be a perfect example of their hipocracy... here stands a man/woman with a side arm ready to protect this bunch.. as they claim guns have no valid use.

Oleg Volk · July 15, 2002, 12:59 PM

If somebody could email me high-resolution minimally compressed photos of anti-RKBA rallies, I will make a poster like this. I have plenty of police images which I could add to the overall view.

Veloce851 · July 15, 2002, 02:46 PM

I'll see what I can find out on the net.

Frohickey · July 19, 2002, 02:16 AM

EVERY single anti-gun rally/meeting that I have been to, I've seen a police officer watching the proceedings. There was the MMM in Sacramento, where some MMM people tried to pick a fight with the SAS people. There was the Santa Clara MMM meeting where the chapter president (that works at Cisco) admitted that there was a plainclothes police officer standing watch downstairs.

Most of the gun group meetings that I have been to, do not have a police officer watching the proceedings. Never seen a uniformed police officer stand outside or inside of a NRA members council meeting.

(I think there are police officers in the NRA meetings, but they are inside, and they are NRA members too!)

July 12, 2002, 11:25 PM	#1
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	The one problem gun-banners have Look at this picture reminds me the usual question I have for the antis: "People already have guns and want to keep them. Now what?" They tend to either say "not much we can do" or "make them not wan tto have guns" or (most frequently) "take them by force!" Go from there to make them realize the contradiction of their own position...ostensibly against violence but leading to it quite directly. __________________ Oleg "peacemonger" Volk blog.olevolk.net

July 13, 2002, 12:00 AM	#3
jimpeel Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 1999 Location: Longmont, CO, USA Posts: 4,530	The real problem that the antis have Even if they manage to repeal the Second Amendment, they face the myriad Constitutions of the states that use the unambiguous language of "person", "individual", "his", "their", etc. There are 32 states that have an individual right to arms in their Constitutions. I guess the antis will have to move to the other 18.

July 13, 2002, 11:16 AM	#5
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	It helps to separate the "ends justify means" psychos from the "useful idiots" who might be rehabilitated if they understood what they were really advocating. __________________ Oleg "peacemonger" Volk blog.olevolk.net

July 13, 2002, 11:33 AM	#6
NIGHTWATCH Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 410	unrelated What kind of rifle is that women holding? Anybody? And does anyone have her address?

July 13, 2002, 11:41 AM	#7
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	The rear sight of that rifle is a give-away. __________________ Oleg "peacemonger" Volk blog.olevolk.net

July 12, 2002, 11:53 PM	#2
Kaylee Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2000 Location: The Last Homely House Posts: 1,677	The trouble, of course, is that they've already figured out the answer to this one. You can keep what you have, they'll just work to make illegal to get any more. And eventually, illegal or prohibitively expensive to get ammuniton or components. Of course, all that really means is that by the time it comes to open conflict (if ever) the Molon Labe folks will be a generation or two behind the technology curve for the first few months of the conflict. But then.... a 1950's Remington deer gun looks an awful lot like an M40 to me.... Heck, for that matter the local black powder guys are shooting repro Sharps at ranges that would make most EBR devotees cringe. I'd say a dug up Colt SAA in 2109 would be more effective than a Liberator pistol, whether the Ninjaboys are using blasters yet or not. -K

July 13, 2002, 09:34 AM	#4
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	O.K., I've read it several times and I am still confused. Just how exactly are the antis being contradictory??? There is a position that favors violence. They will use violence to enforce their will as they have in other countries and now here in this country. "Safety", "crime", "the children" is nothing more than a smokescreen for their violent agenda. I need help understanding this one.

July 13, 2002, 07:30 PM	#8
Quartus Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,823	I do believe Oleg has her address.

July 13, 2002, 11:18 PM	#9
NIGHTWATCH Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 410	I dont have a clue as to what kind of rifle she is holding. I know little, if anything about rifles. What type of rifle is that? Thanks.

July 14, 2002, 12:36 AM	#10
Beowulf_93 Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2002 Location: Chattanooga, TN Posts: 221	Looks like a Spanish Civil Guards Mauser converted to .308 when Spain joined NATO. A few years back, they were fairly common, then dried up. The anti's realize their position: it is the same stance taken by other totalitarian regimes in history. They wish to impose their will upon the country through the force of arms, which would be a tremendously difficult task if their henchmen were sent home in body bags. Solzhenitsyn, in the 1st volume of "The Gulag Archipelago", speculates after his detention on the effect armed resistance would have had upon the NKVD's arrests: " And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive & had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood that they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?" He continues further: "The Organs ( being the NKVD) would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!" ( Taken verbatim from "The Gulag Archipelago", Vol 1, p. 13). It is clear what a passive attitude creates, sheep led to the slaughter. We, however, are in the historically unique situation of possessing the effective means of resistance. Like Kaylee said, even an old single action beats a Liberator, and there were tons of gutsy Phillipinoes who used those things to get an Arisaka & some ammo to use later.

July 14, 2002, 03:40 AM	#11
Lord Grey Boots Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Snohomish, WA Posts: 510	Tis a FR-8. Handy little 308 carbine.

July 15, 2002, 12:35 PM	#13
Veloce851 Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 2001 Location: KC, KS Posts: 183	another problem... and I would love to get a picture of this. But the next time one of these anti groups is having a rally... Could someone get a picture of an officer standing guard (as police tend to be on site and guard ANY large gathering of people) Perhaps a good picture of a guard standing there with his side arm in plain site of an anti slogan sign. That would be a perfect example of their hipocracy... here stands a man/woman with a side arm ready to protect this bunch.. as they claim guns have no valid use.

July 15, 2002, 12:59 PM	#14
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	If somebody could email me high-resolution minimally compressed photos of anti-RKBA rallies, I will make a poster like this. I have plenty of police images which I could add to the overall view. __________________ Oleg "peacemonger" Volk blog.olevolk.net

July 15, 2002, 02:46 PM	#15
Veloce851 Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 2001 Location: KC, KS Posts: 183	I'll see what I can find out on the net.

July 19, 2002, 02:16 AM	#16
Frohickey Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2002 Location: People's Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 579	EVERY single anti-gun rally/meeting that I have been to, I've seen a police officer watching the proceedings. There was the MMM in Sacramento, where some MMM people tried to pick a fight with the SAS people. There was the Santa Clara MMM meeting where the chapter president (that works at Cisco) admitted that there was a plainclothes police officer standing watch downstairs. Most of the gun group meetings that I have been to, do not have a police officer watching the proceedings. Never seen a uniformed police officer stand outside or inside of a NRA members council meeting. (I think there are police officers in the NRA meetings, but they are inside, and they are NRA members too!)