Powder Failed to Ignite

Ribcracker · May 13, 2015, 09:41 PM

I was half way through an IHMSA match last Saturday when my 7BR XP-100 went foof instead of bang. When I ejected the case, unburnt powder spilled onto the ground and into my action. The bullet was lodged about 3" from the chamber. My spotter had an old cleaning rod but we couldn't drive it out and his rod was destroyed.
When I got home I tried using a hardwood dowel but it just splintered, so I bought a 1/4" aluminum rod which just bent and smooshed at both ends.
I hated to do it but I was finally able to drive it out with a steel rod.
But why did this happen? The powder was 27 gr of Win 748 that I had purchased only a couple months earlier and used at the last match without incident. Primer was Rem 7 1/2 BR, also relatively new.
Granted, it was a rainy/misty day but I don't see why that should matter.
Now I'm paranoid. Will this happen again at the next match?
Anybody have any insight into this odd phenomena?
Peace,
Bud

FrankenMauser · May 13, 2015, 11:31 PM

Wet tumbling media? (From an additive, or from wet brass.)
Moisture from wet-tumbling?
Blocked flash hole?
Oil-based lubricant inside the case?
Oil-based lubricant on the base of the bullet? (It can take just a tiny amount to contaminate a whole powder charge.)
Powder charges thrown with a new (contaminated) powder measure?
Short charge?

Note that most of my theories are based on contaminated powder.

mete · May 14, 2015, 12:23 AM

A good chance it was a bad primer !! Seen that happen a few times ! If you get a few in one batch of primers just throw out the whole box !!! I've had the opposite where a few hot loads were due to the primers . Same solution - disgard the rest of the box .
Use a tight fitting brass rod to remove the bullet ,first put some oil in the barrel so you get a hydraulic effect.

reynolds357 · May 14, 2015, 03:12 AM

If the primer is hot enough to lodge the bullet that hard, the primer is hot enough to ignite the powder. The problem had to be powder contamination in that particular piece of brass.

Slamfire · May 14, 2015, 07:41 AM

Quote:

I was half way through an IHMSA match last Saturday when my 7BR XP-100 went foof instead of bang. When I ejected the case, unburnt powder spilled onto the ground and into my action. The bullet was lodged about 3" from the chamber. My spotter had an old cleaning rod but we couldn't drive it out and his rod was destroyed.

Here is an idea, an inadequate ignition system.

I bought a well used M586, the owner said he had fired tens of thousands of rounds with a 148 LWC and 2.7 grains Bullseye and Federal primers. I took this pistol out in 40 ish weather, using a 158 L AA#9 and WSP primers. I had the same sort of experience as you. I had a bullet lodged in the barrel throat, there was unburnt powder of a glumpy, cotton candy consistency. I had to knock the bullet out of the barrel with a screwdriver and that shoved the bullet back into the case. Pictures below.

You would think that primer is well struke, nice deep indentation. Well, think again. I replaced the old mainspring with a new one, went out in slightly warmer weather, and ignition with the same ammunition was perfect.

My conclusion: Weak firing pin strike due to weak mainspring. I will bet you have never changed the mainspring on your bolt action pistol. Those pistols were made between 1963 and 1994. At best your mainspring is twenty years old. At worst, it is over 50 years old. I would do two things, clean the firing pin, firing pin channel and I would put in a new mainspring.

mete · May 14, 2015, 07:41 AM

Not true !
The cases I've seen have been solved simply by using another box of primers ! Same bullets , powder amount of powder but different primers .
Primers are just another component and there can be manufacturing problems for them too !

Slamfire · May 14, 2015, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Not true !
The cases I've seen have been solved simply by using another box of primers ! Same bullets , powder amount of powder but different primers .
Primers are just another component and there can be manufacturing problems for them too !

Primer sensitivity varies by lot, one lot of primers will be slightly more or less sensitive than another. Robert Frost talks about this in his book "Ammunition Making". He also mentions Bullseye shooters who had weakened their mainsprings to the extent that some primer lots went bang, and others did not.

Primers are about the least understood item in a cartridge case. Reloaders' expectations are that primers are all the same, all act the same, take the same amount of energy to ignite, give off all the same amount energy, same, same, same. Turns out that primers vary a lot more than we think.

Hunter Customs · May 14, 2015, 08:09 AM

Quote:

If the primer is hot enough to lodge the bullet that hard, the primer is hot enough to ignite the powder.

I have to respectfully disagree with the above statement, the primer could have caused it.

I've seen the same thing happen when W296 powder was used with a standard primer instead of a magnum primer.

Out of my last batch of Remington primers, I've had a couple of primers that will not go off and I can personally guarantee there's no contamination of powder or primers at my end.

Slamfire, it may be an optical illusion but the picture of your revolver the barrel, frame, cylinder alignment does not look right.

F. Guffey · May 14, 2015, 08:11 AM

So many unknowns, because of the risk and unknowns, variables and differences between components an outsider could decide for us we are not component. Even the component can not make their minds up.

F. Guffey

Ribcracker · May 14, 2015, 08:42 AM

This is all great feedback. Your ideas were bouncing around in my head when I had an AHA! moment.
Slamfire's photo of the wadcutter's primer doesn't look like a light strike to me. It's deep and well centered, as are the indents on my primers. Thus, I don't suspect a weak firing pin spring. And I agree with Reynolds that if the primer was hot enough to drive the bullet 3" into the bore, it wasn't likely weak or defective.
That brings me back to FrankenMauser's ideas, the first of which was "wet tumbling media".
Back story: I recently switched from corncob to walnut media since cob takes so long to clean my brass. The walnut media worked fast but didn't give me the cosmetic shine that cob does. So...I poured a little car wax into the media, possibly too much. It was this batch of brass that engendered the failure.
Bingo! That's got to be it!
Agreed?

Slamfire · May 14, 2015, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Slamfire, it may be an optical allusion but the picture of your revolver the barrel, frame, cylinder alignment does not look right.

Fisheye effect due to curved camera lens.

F. Guffey · May 14, 2015, 09:16 AM

Hang on there, let's think about it.

The firing pin strides the primer, an unpopular ideal is 'the firing pin crushes the primer'. A very popular ideal is the bullet, case and powder takes off for the front of the chamber.

When the primer is crushed with definition the primer goes off as in ignites. When the premier ignites pressure inside of the primer forces the primer to conform to the shape of the firing pin. The dent in the primer is the results of the primer conforming to the firing pin. A big dent resulting from a firing pin crushing the primer means there was little to no pressure inside of the primer.

Then there are slow motion videos of hammers bouncing back after hitting the primer. I know, there is recoil from the case, then there is added, the pressure inside the primer removes the dent, the primer does not move far, can the primer traveling a short distance force the hammer to bounce.

I pulled the trigger, click, nothing. I removed the slide, installed another complete slide and continued.

F. Guffey

Gadawg88 · May 14, 2015, 09:35 AM

Quote:

So...I poured a little car wax into the media, possibly too much. It was this batch of brass that engendered the failure.
Bingo! That's got to be it!
Agreed?

I add a capful of NuFinish to my media when I change it out and occasionally thereafter as do many other reloaders and I have never experienced the situation you describe. Could it be the cause, sure, but I would be surprised. What kind of polish did you use and did you let the tumbler run for a little while before you added the brass. If you don't you can get clumping. I imagine a polish/media snot ball at the bottom of a case could interfere somewhat with powder ignition. Only you can judge how likely that scenario is.

F. Guffey · May 14, 2015, 10:19 AM

Quote:

So...I poured a little car wax into the media, possibly

I use corn and or walnut and nothing. I have time to check the flash holes. I have access to a tumbler that is made like concrete mixers with a stainless tumbler for wet tumbling, when they finished building it, it did not work, SO? Chain drive and variable speed.

My question: "There were only two of those in the world and you turned serial #1 into a tumbler?"

F. Guffey

Ribcracker · May 14, 2015, 10:21 AM

Guffey,
You've made some valid points about the appearance of primer indentations. They don't always tell a complete story. I can't argue with that.
Gadawg,
The car wax I used was Turtle Wax Non-Abrasive. But I didn't measure out a capful, I just splashed some in there...maybe too much. And I'm embarrassed to admit it but the brass was already in the tumbler when I did it. I guess I assumed the wax would get distributed either way. But I can now envision a clump finding its way into a case thereby NOT getting distributed.
I think I'll discard the contaminated media, pull the bullets, dump the powder, punch out the primers, and start over with fresh media, powder, and primers. That's all I can think to do right now.
Then if I get another misfire, I'll know it's because of something else.
Make sense?

Reloader270 · May 14, 2015, 11:55 AM

I got a bullet out of the barrel of a friend's gun by lubricating the barrel for a few days with Q20 and thereafter I had taken a cleaning rod and a mallet to bump it out.

Dakotared · May 14, 2015, 12:06 PM

To possibly save yourself some work you could just set aside the rest of the ammo and use it for practice and make new stuff up for the match.

T. O'Heir · May 14, 2015, 02:08 PM

A mild steel rod won't bother your rifle. Brass never will.
reynolds357 is right, but is assuming there was powder there. Highly likely to be a squib load and nothing more sinister. Or at least the whole 27 grains.

sawdustdad · May 14, 2015, 02:12 PM

It's possible that you had some tumbler media still in the case (at the bottom) and the powder charge on top of it. In loading a bunch of .223, I noticed a fuller than normal case after dropping 25g of BLC2. So I dumped it out only to discover walnut media in the case. Needless to say, I spent the next hour going through about 500 cases to make sure they were all empty.

That's the last time I add liquid polish at the same time I add brass to my vibratory case cleaner.

Doyle · May 14, 2015, 02:33 PM

Quote:

It's possible that you had some tumbler media still in the case (at the bottom) and the powder charge on top of it.

I think this is as likely a scenario as any. That wax may have caused a bunch of media to get stuck at the bottom of the case.

NoSecondBest · May 14, 2015, 04:54 PM

In my almost fifty years of reloading I've only had something like this happen one time. It was with a 45-70 rifle using 3031 powder. Each charge was individually charged with a dipper and trickler so there was no chance of not having enough powder in the case. Also, the cases were not tumbled before loading and each flash hole is inspected before use.....all low volume loading methods for a single shot rifle. The bullet went about six inches into the barrel and stopped. The powder looked like a large lump of melted plastic inside the chamber behind the bullet. I'm certain the cause was powder position in the case. The flash went over the powder and didn't cause hot enough ignition. The primer and resulting mildly expanding gases pushed the bullet out of the barrel and the chemical process stopped at that point. I've discussed this with other experienced reloaders and this seems to be the consensus on this subject. A low volume amount in a larger case will allow the powder to lay from the back of the case to the bullet and not be positioned to completely cover the flash on primer ignition. Some shooters use filler (not reccomended) or turn each cartridge tip up before shooting to position the powder in the bottom of the case. Most use more powder or different powder to prevent this. A search on this subject will reveal lots of similar experiences. Just something to think about. I never had it happen again after getting away from minimum charges of 3031 in this large case.

Ribcracker · May 14, 2015, 07:07 PM

I got a bullet out of the barrel of a friend's gun by lubricating the barrel for a few days with Q20 and thereafter I had taken a cleaning rod and a mallet to bump it out.

I did soak the bore with penetrating oil (muzzle up) over night and then muzzle down all the next day. I think the pounding with the aluminum rod from both the muzzle and chamber end compacted the bullet and caused it to be stuck even tighter.

Highly likely to be a squib load and nothing more sinister. Or at least the whole 27 grains.

I know a squib is usually what lodges a bullet. But I load my rounds 50 at a time and peer into each case in the loading block with a flashlight to be certain powder levels are uniform. And when I ejected that case, powder spilled all over the place - 27 grains worth!

It's possible that you had some tumbler media still in the case (at the bottom) and the powder charge on top of it.

Plausible, but I tumble my brass before sizing/decapping and if there was a media "bridge" in there, you'd think the decapping pin would break it up. I then toss the case into a box to await the priming stage and use an RCBS hand primer. Any loose media would surely reveal itself by then.

A low volume amount in a larger case will allow the powder to lay from the back of the case to the bullet and not be positioned to completely cover the flash on primer ignition.

27 grains of 748 in the 7BR fills the case. It's not a compacted load but there's little or no dead space once the bullet is seated.

Anyway, I took a handful of Q-tips and started swabbing the interiors of the remaing unloaded brass and eventually found one with a wet interior. The liquid on the swab was slippery. Car wax!
So I cleaned out the tumbler and put in fresh media. I'll retumble all the remaing brass and then carefully punch out the live primers so I can start over. And unfortunately, I'll need to disassemble the 50 or so remaining loaded cartridges. I just don't want to take the chance of another tie-up, especially at a match.
Thanks, guys, for all the ideas and advice. You make this world a better place.
Peace,
Bud Beeler
Oxford, Michigan

Hunter Customs · May 14, 2015, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Fisheye effect due to curved camera lens.

I figured it was something to that effect.

MarkGlazer · May 14, 2015, 07:15 PM

When you process your cases, stick with the Zilla, leave out the liquid. Run your brass for 2 1/2 - 3 hours. Since the liquid "appears" to be a variable in the equation, take it out and see what happens (path of least resistance and no cost to you). Leaving the brass in for an extended period of time should give you the results you were looking for when you added the liquid.

Good luck. Be safe.

PS - nice looking magnum

RaySendero · May 14, 2015, 07:31 PM

Ribcracker,

If your just trying to get up a "possibility" list. I had the exact same thing happen to me - Squib fire with bullet logging 2.5" down barrel. Powder was synced but didn't light. However, I recognized the powder - It was one of my rifle powders - Not suppose to be in that pistol case. The primer fired and pushed the bullet into the barrel - But powder didn't light.

What did the powder look like that came out?
Was it synced? Did you positively ID it?

May 13, 2015, 11:31 PM	#2
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,471	Wet tumbling media? (From an additive, or from wet brass.) Moisture from wet-tumbling? Blocked flash hole? Oil-based lubricant inside the case? Oil-based lubricant on the base of the bullet? (It can take just a tiny amount to contaminate a whole powder charge.) Powder charges thrown with a new (contaminated) powder measure? Short charge? Note that most of my theories are based on contaminated powder. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

May 14, 2015, 08:42 AM	#10
Ribcracker Member Join Date: August 13, 2011 Location: Oxford, Michigan Posts: 49	AHA! This is all great feedback. Your ideas were bouncing around in my head when I had an AHA! moment. Slamfire's photo of the wadcutter's primer doesn't look like a light strike to me. It's deep and well centered, as are the indents on my primers. Thus, I don't suspect a weak firing pin spring. And I agree with Reynolds that if the primer was hot enough to drive the bullet 3" into the bore, it wasn't likely weak or defective. That brings me back to FrankenMauser's ideas, the first of which was "wet tumbling media". Back story: I recently switched from corncob to walnut media since cob takes so long to clean my brass. The walnut media worked fast but didn't give me the cosmetic shine that cob does. So...I poured a little car wax into the media, possibly too much. It was this batch of brass that engendered the failure. Bingo! That's got to be it! Agreed?

May 13, 2015, 09:41 PM	#1
Ribcracker Member Join Date: August 13, 2011 Location: Oxford, Michigan Posts: 49	Powder Failed to Ignite I was half way through an IHMSA match last Saturday when my 7BR XP-100 went foof instead of bang. When I ejected the case, unburnt powder spilled onto the ground and into my action. The bullet was lodged about 3" from the chamber. My spotter had an old cleaning rod but we couldn't drive it out and his rod was destroyed. When I got home I tried using a hardwood dowel but it just splintered, so I bought a 1/4" aluminum rod which just bent and smooshed at both ends. I hated to do it but I was finally able to drive it out with a steel rod. But why did this happen? The powder was 27 gr of Win 748 that I had purchased only a couple months earlier and used at the last match without incident. Primer was Rem 7 1/2 BR, also relatively new. Granted, it was a rainy/misty day but I don't see why that should matter. Now I'm paranoid. Will this happen again at the next match? Anybody have any insight into this odd phenomena? Peace, Bud

May 14, 2015, 12:23 AM	#3
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	A good chance it was a bad primer !! Seen that happen a few times ! If you get a few in one batch of primers just throw out the whole box !!! I've had the opposite where a few hot loads were due to the primers . Same solution - disgard the rest of the box . Use a tight fitting brass rod to remove the bullet ,first put some oil in the barrel so you get a hydraulic effect.

May 14, 2015, 03:12 AM	#4
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	If the primer is hot enough to lodge the bullet that hard, the primer is hot enough to ignite the powder. The problem had to be powder contamination in that particular piece of brass.

May 14, 2015, 07:41 AM	#6
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Not true ! The cases I've seen have been solved simply by using another box of primers ! Same bullets , powder amount of powder but different primers . Primers are just another component and there can be manufacturing problems for them too !

May 14, 2015, 08:11 AM	#9
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	So many unknowns, because of the risk and unknowns, variables and differences between components an outsider could decide for us we are not component. Even the component can not make their minds up. F. Guffey Last edited by F. Guffey; May 14, 2015 at 09:17 AM. Reason: add n to may

May 14, 2015, 09:16 AM	#12
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Hang on there, let's think about it. The firing pin strides the primer, an unpopular ideal is 'the firing pin crushes the primer'. A very popular ideal is the bullet, case and powder takes off for the front of the chamber. When the primer is crushed with definition the primer goes off as in ignites. When the premier ignites pressure inside of the primer forces the primer to conform to the shape of the firing pin. The dent in the primer is the results of the primer conforming to the firing pin. A big dent resulting from a firing pin crushing the primer means there was little to no pressure inside of the primer. Then there are slow motion videos of hammers bouncing back after hitting the primer. I know, there is recoil from the case, then there is added, the pressure inside the primer removes the dent, the primer does not move far, can the primer traveling a short distance force the hammer to bounce. I pulled the trigger, click, nothing. I removed the slide, installed another complete slide and continued. F. Guffey

May 14, 2015, 10:21 AM	#15
Ribcracker Member Join Date: August 13, 2011 Location: Oxford, Michigan Posts: 49	Guffey, You've made some valid points about the appearance of primer indentations. They don't always tell a complete story. I can't argue with that. Gadawg, The car wax I used was Turtle Wax Non-Abrasive. But I didn't measure out a capful, I just splashed some in there...maybe too much. And I'm embarrassed to admit it but the brass was already in the tumbler when I did it. I guess I assumed the wax would get distributed either way. But I can now envision a clump finding its way into a case thereby NOT getting distributed. I think I'll discard the contaminated media, pull the bullets, dump the powder, punch out the primers, and start over with fresh media, powder, and primers. That's all I can think to do right now. Then if I get another misfire, I'll know it's because of something else. Make sense?

May 14, 2015, 11:55 AM	#16
Reloader270 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2015 Location: South Africa Posts: 138	I got a bullet out of the barrel of a friend's gun by lubricating the barrel for a few days with Q20 and thereafter I had taken a cleaning rod and a mallet to bump it out.

May 14, 2015, 12:06 PM	#17
Dakotared Member Join Date: March 2, 2012 Location: Cambridge Minnesota Posts: 87	To possibly save yourself some work you could just set aside the rest of the ammo and use it for practice and make new stuff up for the match.

May 14, 2015, 02:08 PM	#18
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	A mild steel rod won't bother your rifle. Brass never will. reynolds357 is right, but is assuming there was powder there. Highly likely to be a squib load and nothing more sinister. Or at least the whole 27 grains.

May 14, 2015, 02:12 PM	#19
sawdustdad Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2014 Location: Virginia Posts: 484	It's possible that you had some tumbler media still in the case (at the bottom) and the powder charge on top of it. In loading a bunch of .223, I noticed a fuller than normal case after dropping 25g of BLC2. So I dumped it out only to discover walnut media in the case. Needless to say, I spent the next hour going through about 500 cases to make sure they were all empty. That's the last time I add liquid polish at the same time I add brass to my vibratory case cleaner.

May 14, 2015, 04:54 PM	#21
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	In my almost fifty years of reloading I've only had something like this happen one time. It was with a 45-70 rifle using 3031 powder. Each charge was individually charged with a dipper and trickler so there was no chance of not having enough powder in the case. Also, the cases were not tumbled before loading and each flash hole is inspected before use.....all low volume loading methods for a single shot rifle. The bullet went about six inches into the barrel and stopped. The powder looked like a large lump of melted plastic inside the chamber behind the bullet. I'm certain the cause was powder position in the case. The flash went over the powder and didn't cause hot enough ignition. The primer and resulting mildly expanding gases pushed the bullet out of the barrel and the chemical process stopped at that point. I've discussed this with other experienced reloaders and this seems to be the consensus on this subject. A low volume amount in a larger case will allow the powder to lay from the back of the case to the bullet and not be positioned to completely cover the flash on primer ignition. Some shooters use filler (not reccomended) or turn each cartridge tip up before shooting to position the powder in the bottom of the case. Most use more powder or different powder to prevent this. A search on this subject will reveal lots of similar experiences. Just something to think about. I never had it happen again after getting away from minimum charges of 3031 in this large case.

May 14, 2015, 07:07 PM	#22
Ribcracker Member Join Date: August 13, 2011 Location: Oxford, Michigan Posts: 49	I got a bullet out of the barrel of a friend's gun by lubricating the barrel for a few days with Q20 and thereafter I had taken a cleaning rod and a mallet to bump it out. I did soak the bore with penetrating oil (muzzle up) over night and then muzzle down all the next day. I think the pounding with the aluminum rod from both the muzzle and chamber end compacted the bullet and caused it to be stuck even tighter. Highly likely to be a squib load and nothing more sinister. Or at least the whole 27 grains. I know a squib is usually what lodges a bullet. But I load my rounds 50 at a time and peer into each case in the loading block with a flashlight to be certain powder levels are uniform. And when I ejected that case, powder spilled all over the place - 27 grains worth! It's possible that you had some tumbler media still in the case (at the bottom) and the powder charge on top of it. Plausible, but I tumble my brass before sizing/decapping and if there was a media "bridge" in there, you'd think the decapping pin would break it up. I then toss the case into a box to await the priming stage and use an RCBS hand primer. Any loose media would surely reveal itself by then. A low volume amount in a larger case will allow the powder to lay from the back of the case to the bullet and not be positioned to completely cover the flash on primer ignition. 27 grains of 748 in the 7BR fills the case. It's not a compacted load but there's little or no dead space once the bullet is seated. Anyway, I took a handful of Q-tips and started swabbing the interiors of the remaing unloaded brass and eventually found one with a wet interior. The liquid on the swab was slippery. Car wax! So I cleaned out the tumbler and put in fresh media. I'll retumble all the remaing brass and then carefully punch out the live primers so I can start over. And unfortunately, I'll need to disassemble the 50 or so remaining loaded cartridges. I just don't want to take the chance of another tie-up, especially at a match. Thanks, guys, for all the ideas and advice. You make this world a better place. Peace, Bud Beeler Oxford, Michigan

May 14, 2015, 07:15 PM	#24
MarkGlazer Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2013 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 329	When you process your cases, stick with the Zilla, leave out the liquid. Run your brass for 2 1/2 - 3 hours. Since the liquid "appears" to be a variable in the equation, take it out and see what happens (path of least resistance and no cost to you). Leaving the brass in for an extended period of time should give you the results you were looking for when you added the liquid. Good luck. Be safe. PS - nice looking magnum

May 14, 2015, 07:31 PM	#25
RaySendero Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2010 Location: US South Posts: 857	Ribcracker, If your just trying to get up a "possibility" list. I had the exact same thing happen to me - Squib fire with bullet logging 2.5" down barrel. Powder was synced but didn't light. However, I recognized the powder - It was one of my rifle powders - Not suppose to be in that pistol case. The primer fired and pushed the bullet into the barrel - But powder didn't light. What did the powder look like that came out? Was it synced? Did you positively ID it?