Looking for very mild .44 Spl. load.

dahermit · May 9, 2015, 10:09 AM

I am looking for a very mild load for my S&W 696 (three inch), using a RCBS 250 SWC bullet using Red Dot, Unique, or Bullseye.

The gun is very accurate with the Lyman "accuracy load" of 6.9 Unique with my bullet, but I want something for rapid double-action shooting using that bullet (do not suggest a lighter weight bullet...it is the mold I have and want to use).

I have an old Lyman #45 manual that lists such loads...4.0 Bullseye with a Lyman 49421 bullet for instance, but none of the modern manuals go that low or use new powders that I do not have in my larder.

My questions are, if the ultra-light loads were listed in the old manuals, I presume that they were safe...then why no longer listed?

Secondly, can someone list a load using very small amounts of Bullseye, Unique or Red Dot that the have found accurate with either Lyman 49421, or RCBS 250 SWC bullets.

Please stay on subject, I know the dangers of bullets stuck in the barrel.

Lost Sheep · May 9, 2015, 01:13 PM

I would counsel putting a filler (cotton fluff or some such) in the case to ensure the powder is kept near the primer.

Do you have access to a chronograph? You could load down until you start getting stuck bullets and find out just how low you can go. Then boost that velocity by 25% or so and feel safer.

You specified powders, but I suggest Trail Boss as a powder that fills the case well and gives particularly soft-shooting loads.

Good luck.

Lost Sheep

SSA · May 9, 2015, 01:29 PM

You could seat the bullet a little deeper, to 44 Russian OAL, and use 44 Russian load data. Seating depth should be just about right to crimp over the front shoulder.

g.willikers · May 9, 2015, 02:02 PM

One theory is that lesser amounts of powder can cause increases in pressure instead of less.
Has something to do with the rate of burn being relative to the amount of powder the flame front is traveling through.
??
Recent discoveries on the subject and changes in powders might also have something to do with the differences between older and new load data.
Gotta' believe the powder manufacturers are on top of it and know what's best.

mulespurs · May 9, 2015, 02:19 PM

I would look in an older lyman cast bullet loading manual. It will give you a lot of options with a number of powders.

T. O'Heir · May 9, 2015, 02:27 PM

6.9 of Unique is the max load for a cast 250. You work up to that or just pick it? Anyway, 5.3 of Bullseye of the max load of it for a cast 250. 86 FPS slower than the Unique.
If you want a light load reduce the bullet weight or a light powder charge.

mxsailor803 · May 9, 2015, 02:31 PM

Lost sheep suggested what I would use. I've been using Trail Boss for a number of years now as a powder puff load. Works really well. It is a little dirty though.

Jim Watson · May 9, 2015, 04:08 PM

What is wrong with 4 gr of Bullseye? Has the powder changed since 1967?

If you fear it has, look at Lyman 49th.
Starting load of 4.2 gr Bullseye and 429421.

Slamfire · May 9, 2015, 04:17 PM

An old target load was 5.0 grains Red Dot with a 240 L. It is was accurate and low recoil. Five grains of Bullseye also produced excellent accuracy. However you cannot push bullets much faster with these powders and that is a limitation.

4" M624

240 LSWC 5.0 grs Red Dot thrown, Mixed Brass CCI300
T = 64 °F 3-Mar-07

Ave Vel = 714.8
Std Dev = 24.35
ES = 95.28
Hign 778.4
Low = 683.1
N = 19
Accurate

240 LSWC 5.0 grs Bullseye Lot 6/20/05 Mixed Brass WLP
T = 64 °F 3-Mar-07

Ave Vel = 763.9
Std Dev = 16.18
ES = 60.94
High = 794.7
Low = 733.7
N = 28
very accurate, little powder residue

SHR970 · May 9, 2015, 04:57 PM

When ATK took over, they re did their data using only "pistol" powders with Speer G.D. bullets. Shotgun powders that used to be listed suddenly were no longer. But if you call them, they will give you the data that is right out of the 1992 guide.

From the 1992 guide ll loads listed are max. They do not list a starting. 246 gr. LRN 5.6" barrel Win Primer

BE 4.5 gr. for 765 fps. @ 11,700cup

RD 4.3 gr. for 740 fps. @ 11,900 cup

UN 6.0 gr. for 800 fps. @ 11,700 cup

dahermit · May 9, 2015, 06:05 PM

Quote:

What is wrong with 4 gr of Bullseye? Has the powder changed since 1967?

Unique, 2400 and although a rifle powerder, Rx7 have. So, I do not know,

Jim Watson · May 9, 2015, 07:11 PM

OK, say it has. The current Lyman shows 4.2 grains instead of 4.0 Whee.

mehavey · May 9, 2015, 07:25 PM

44 Special / 250gr LSWC / 3" barrel

Code:

                 Wt (gr) fill (%)  vel (fps) Pmax (psi)  Burn(%)
Alliant RED DOT    4.1	  40	      600     11,521      100
Alliant UNIQUE     5.6	  42	      600     10,385       86
Alliant BULLSEYE   4.9	  36	      600     10,420       88

I'd go w/ RedDot

.

dahermit · May 9, 2015, 07:26 PM

Quote:

OK, say it has. The current Lyman shows 4.2 grains instead of 4.0 Whee.

Rude attitude. Did it occur to you that I may not have the current Lyman manual? The latest one I have is #48, it shows no Bullseye loads for the .44 Special whatsoever so Whee yourself.

SHR970 · May 9, 2015, 07:52 PM

I would use RD for two reasons:

1) it is bulkier than BE and especially Unique and will give better case fill.

2) It burns better / more consistently at lower pressure than BE / Unique.

GeauxTide · May 10, 2015, 07:53 AM

254 Lyman/Keith 429421 cast Alliant Red Dot 4.7 698
Remarks: overall loaded length (inches): 1.575
254 Lyman/Keith 429421 cast Alliant Red Dot 5.2 742
Remarks: overall loaded length (inches): 1.575
254 Lyman/Keith 429421 cast Alliant Red Dot 5.7 796

black mamba · May 10, 2015, 08:43 AM

Another Red Dot fan here. I used to load gallery loads for my Ruger No. 1 in 375 H&H to shoot indoors at my bullet trap. 6 grains of RD on top of a mag primer and thumb seat a .375 round ball down the neck. Just imagine the unused powder space in those loads! 1 grain of ball powder in a 44 spcl. case wouldn't have as much free space as they had, and never an ignition problem. American Select is another good powder for reduced pistol loads, as it is about the same burn rate and bulk density as Red Dot.

**Unclenick** · May 10, 2015, 11:09 AM

As near as I can tell, pressure jumps with underloading start in mid-case fill with rifle and slow powders, but fast pistol and shotgun powders don't seem to have a problem with it. I've shot .44 Specials loaded with soft swaged 240 grain SWC's down to airgun velocities using 2.9 grains of Bullseye in my light Charter Bulldog.

However, since doing that shooting (early to mid 80's for that old target) I have seen one report of a .308 Winchester rifle blown up by using about 10% case fill of N320, which is sort of between Bullseye and Unique in performance. So at this point I try keep mild loads of fast pistol powder about 20% fill. So, around 3.2 grains for that bullet.

Frankly, though, if I were starting a new load workup today, I'd go looking for Trail Boss powder. It's so much more bulky, and it burns so much cleaner it's hard not to appreciate it. Maybe 5 grains of that.

Salmoneye · May 10, 2015, 03:09 PM

Another vote for Red Dot...

As mentioned, when Speer came under the ATK umbrella they stopped publishing their old data and went with nothing but 'Speer Bullets'...

They will indeed stand by all their old published data except Blue Dot in .357 mag with 125gr bullets, and Blue Dot in ANY .41 mag loads...

If you are a member of The High Road, this link will give you a good PDF copy of the 2004 Alliant manual:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachmen...7&d=1364769070

If not a member of THR, this link has a copy of the 2005 Alliant Manual which is the same as the 2004...The quality is not as good as the first link though:

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Fre...M/Alliant.html

sawdustdad · May 10, 2015, 08:04 PM

Red Dot is my favorite in .44spl, too.

Nick_C_S · May 10, 2015, 10:21 PM

My only 44 gun is a 629 with an 8-3/8" bbl. So it begs for lots of slow powder. It just seems kind of odd to load light for it. I wish I had a 44 Spl (or magnum) with a 4"-ish barrel. Guess I need to get another job - and live outside California.

Anyway, my latest powder for light 38 Spl loads is Nitro 100. It's really fast so it builds good pressure while yielding modest velocities. Burns super clean too. I like it a lot. If I were to load up some 240gn LSWC's for 44 Spl, I'd have to give N100 a try.

TimSr · May 11, 2015, 08:02 AM

Quote:

.....using a RCBS 250 SWC bullet using Red Dot, Unique, or Bullseye.

No need to run out and buy more powders. All of those will work fine. I'd be less inclined to use Unique as it gets extra dirty and smokey in really light loads. Red Dot seems to have a slight edge over Bullseye with big bore light loads, but both are fine.

**Mike Irwin** · May 11, 2015, 09:24 AM

Trail Boss

Trail Boss

Trail Boss

Yes, I like it so much for .44 Special that I'm willing to say its name three times and summon it.

Nick_C_S · May 11, 2015, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Trail Boss

Trail Boss

Trail Boss

I keep hearing lots of good things about Trail Boss.

If the manufactures will ever stop producing only elephant gun rifle powder, and turn production to a pistol powder every now and then, maybe Trail boss will show up at my LGS. That would be nice. Not holding my breath.

I'm not going to go out of my way to search for it; but if I ever cross paths with Trail Boss, I'll grab a pound and give 'er a whirl.

Paul B. · May 11, 2015, 05:34 PM

My pet load for the .44 Spl. is Skeeter Skelton's load; y7.5 gar. of Uniques and the Lyman #429241, Elmer Keith's bullet. I shoot it in a 6" S&W 624. Not a mild load but is more than safe in my gun. Recoil is very manageable.
I think that starting load for Unique would work just fine. I think much of the dirtiness of that power may bed from the bullet lube but is not that hard to clean. I only shoot my home made cast bullets in my revolvers and most of the time in my semi-autos. The starting loads foe Bullseye and Red Dot should work just as well. It the OP has all three, why not run a test and see which one his gun prefers.
Paul B.

May 9, 2015, 10:09 AM	#1
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	Looking for very mild .44 Spl. load. I am looking for a very mild load for my S&W 696 (three inch), using a RCBS 250 SWC bullet using Red Dot, Unique, or Bullseye. The gun is very accurate with the Lyman "accuracy load" of 6.9 Unique with my bullet, but I want something for rapid double-action shooting using that bullet (do not suggest a lighter weight bullet...it is the mold I have and want to use). I have an old Lyman #45 manual that lists such loads...4.0 Bullseye with a Lyman 49421 bullet for instance, but none of the modern manuals go that low or use new powders that I do not have in my larder. My questions are, if the ultra-light loads were listed in the old manuals, I presume that they were safe...then why no longer listed? Secondly, can someone list a load using very small amounts of Bullseye, Unique or Red Dot that the have found accurate with either Lyman 49421, or RCBS 250 SWC bullets. Please stay on subject, I know the dangers of bullets stuck in the barrel.

May 9, 2015, 02:19 PM	#5
mulespurs Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2012 Posts: 115	cast bullet loads I would look in an older lyman cast bullet loading manual. It will give you a lot of options with a number of powders.

May 9, 2015, 04:17 PM	#9
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	An old target load was 5.0 grains Red Dot with a 240 L. It is was accurate and low recoil. Five grains of Bullseye also produced excellent accuracy. However you cannot push bullets much faster with these powders and that is a limitation. 4" M624 240 LSWC 5.0 grs Red Dot thrown, Mixed Brass CCI300 T = 64 °F 3-Mar-07 Ave Vel = 714.8 Std Dev = 24.35 ES = 95.28 Hign 778.4 Low = 683.1 N = 19 Accurate 240 LSWC 5.0 grs Bullseye Lot 6/20/05 Mixed Brass WLP T = 64 °F 3-Mar-07 Ave Vel = 763.9 Std Dev = 16.18 ES = 60.94 High = 794.7 Low = 733.7 N = 28 very accurate, little powder residue __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

May 9, 2015, 07:25 PM	#13
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,944	44 Special / 250gr LSWC / 3" barrel Code: Wt (gr) fill (%) vel (fps) Pmax (psi) Burn(%) Alliant RED DOT 4.1 40 600 11,521 100 Alliant UNIQUE 5.6 42 600 10,385 86 Alliant BULLSEYE 4.9 36 600 10,420 88 I'd go w/ RedDot . Last edited by mehavey; May 9, 2015 at 09:07 PM.

May 10, 2015, 07:53 AM	#16
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,433	Here you go 254 Lyman/Keith 429421 cast Alliant Red Dot 4.7 698 Remarks: overall loaded length (inches): 1.575 254 Lyman/Keith 429421 cast Alliant Red Dot 5.2 742 Remarks: overall loaded length (inches): 1.575 254 Lyman/Keith 429421 cast Alliant Red Dot 5.7 796

May 9, 2015, 01:13 PM	#2
Lost Sheep Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Location: Anchorage Alaska Posts: 3,341	I would counsel putting a filler (cotton fluff or some such) in the case to ensure the powder is kept near the primer. Do you have access to a chronograph? You could load down until you start getting stuck bullets and find out just how low you can go. Then boost that velocity by 25% or so and feel safer. You specified powders, but I suggest Trail Boss as a powder that fills the case well and gives particularly soft-shooting loads. Good luck. Lost Sheep

May 9, 2015, 01:29 PM	#3
SSA Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Posts: 641	You could seat the bullet a little deeper, to 44 Russian OAL, and use 44 Russian load data. Seating depth should be just about right to crimp over the front shoulder.

May 9, 2015, 02:02 PM	#4
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	One theory is that lesser amounts of powder can cause increases in pressure instead of less. Has something to do with the rate of burn being relative to the amount of powder the flame front is traveling through. ?? Recent discoveries on the subject and changes in powders might also have something to do with the differences between older and new load data. Gotta' believe the powder manufacturers are on top of it and know what's best.

May 9, 2015, 02:27 PM	#6
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	6.9 of Unique is the max load for a cast 250. You work up to that or just pick it? Anyway, 5.3 of Bullseye of the max load of it for a cast 250. 86 FPS slower than the Unique. If you want a light load reduce the bullet weight or a light powder charge.

May 9, 2015, 02:31 PM	#7
mxsailor803 Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2010 Location: SC Posts: 1,344	Lost sheep suggested what I would use. I've been using Trail Boss for a number of years now as a powder puff load. Works really well. It is a little dirty though.

May 9, 2015, 04:08 PM	#8
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,613	What is wrong with 4 gr of Bullseye? Has the powder changed since 1967? If you fear it has, look at Lyman 49th. Starting load of 4.2 gr Bullseye and 429421.

May 9, 2015, 04:57 PM	#10
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	When ATK took over, they re did their data using only "pistol" powders with Speer G.D. bullets. Shotgun powders that used to be listed suddenly were no longer. But if you call them, they will give you the data that is right out of the 1992 guide. From the 1992 guide ll loads listed are max. They do not list a starting. 246 gr. LRN 5.6" barrel Win Primer BE 4.5 gr. for 765 fps. @ 11,700cup RD 4.3 gr. for 740 fps. @ 11,900 cup UN 6.0 gr. for 800 fps. @ 11,700 cup

May 9, 2015, 07:11 PM	#12
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,613	OK, say it has. The current Lyman shows 4.2 grains instead of 4.0 Whee.

May 9, 2015, 07:52 PM	#15
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	I would use RD for two reasons: 1) it is bulkier than BE and especially Unique and will give better case fill. 2) It burns better / more consistently at lower pressure than BE / Unique.

May 10, 2015, 08:43 AM	#17
black mamba Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2011 Location: SW Florida Posts: 890	Another Red Dot fan here. I used to load gallery loads for my Ruger No. 1 in 375 H&H to shoot indoors at my bullet trap. 6 grains of RD on top of a mag primer and thumb seat a .375 round ball down the neck. Just imagine the unused powder space in those loads! 1 grain of ball powder in a 44 spcl. case wouldn't have as much free space as they had, and never an ignition problem. American Select is another good powder for reduced pistol loads, as it is about the same burn rate and bulk density as Red Dot.

May 10, 2015, 11:09 AM	#18
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,121	As near as I can tell, pressure jumps with underloading start in mid-case fill with rifle and slow powders, but fast pistol and shotgun powders don't seem to have a problem with it. I've shot .44 Specials loaded with soft swaged 240 grain SWC's down to airgun velocities using 2.9 grains of Bullseye in my light Charter Bulldog. However, since doing that shooting (early to mid 80's for that old target) I have seen one report of a .308 Winchester rifle blown up by using about 10% case fill of N320, which is sort of between Bullseye and Unique in performance. So at this point I try keep mild loads of fast pistol powder about 20% fill. So, around 3.2 grains for that bullet. Frankly, though, if I were starting a new load workup today, I'd go looking for Trail Boss powder. It's so much more bulky, and it burns so much cleaner it's hard not to appreciate it. Maybe 5 grains of that. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

May 10, 2015, 03:09 PM	#19
Salmoneye Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,076	Another vote for Red Dot... As mentioned, when Speer came under the ATK umbrella they stopped publishing their old data and went with nothing but 'Speer Bullets'... They will indeed stand by all their old published data except Blue Dot in .357 mag with 125gr bullets, and Blue Dot in ANY .41 mag loads... If you are a member of The High Road, this link will give you a good PDF copy of the 2004 Alliant manual: http://www.thehighroad.org/attachmen...7&d=1364769070 If not a member of THR, this link has a copy of the 2005 Alliant Manual which is the same as the 2004...The quality is not as good as the first link though: http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Fre...M/Alliant.html

May 10, 2015, 08:04 PM	#20
sawdustdad Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2014 Location: Virginia Posts: 484	Red Dot is my favorite in .44spl, too.

May 10, 2015, 10:21 PM	#21
Nick_C_S Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2013 Location: Idaho Posts: 5,536	My only 44 gun is a 629 with an 8-3/8" bbl. So it begs for lots of slow powder. It just seems kind of odd to load light for it. I wish I had a 44 Spl (or magnum) with a 4"-ish barrel. Guess I need to get another job - and live outside California. Anyway, my latest powder for light 38 Spl loads is Nitro 100. It's really fast so it builds good pressure while yielding modest velocities. Burns super clean too. I like it a lot. If I were to load up some 240gn LSWC's for 44 Spl, I'd have to give N100 a try. __________________ Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association

May 11, 2015, 09:24 AM	#23
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,426	Trail Boss Trail Boss Trail Boss Yes, I like it so much for .44 Special that I'm willing to say its name three times and summon it. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 11, 2015, 05:34 PM	#25
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,811	My pet load for the .44 Spl. is Skeeter Skelton's load; y7.5 gar. of Uniques and the Lyman #429241, Elmer Keith's bullet. I shoot it in a 6" S&W 624. Not a mild load but is more than safe in my gun. Recoil is very manageable. I think that starting load for Unique would work just fine. I think much of the dirtiness of that power may bed from the bullet lube but is not that hard to clean. I only shoot my home made cast bullets in my revolvers and most of the time in my semi-autos. The starting loads foe Bullseye and Red Dot should work just as well. It the OP has all three, why not run a test and see which one his gun prefers. Paul B. __________________ COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!