The moment the entire global shooting community has been waiting for!

Pond, James Pond · September 12, 2014, 07:43 AM

Yes, that's right!
You heard it here first! P,JP has decided and paid!!

I went for a side-by-side shoot this morning of a Colt AR and CZ VZ58. Both were very nice and shot well. Indeed, as described, the VZ did have a trigger issue. The owner was aware of the welding fix, had tried it, but with limited success. The internals of the CZ really appealed: so simple! Looked like 1.5 moving parts!!

It shot well, though, despite the trigger hassle.

Then came the AR: heavier, but more comfortable to hold. Tighter groups and better ergos in terms of smoother mag changes, bolt release etc.

It, too, was very nice to shoot.

Whilst there, I established that I could get decent brass-cased AR ammo for about €350/1000: cheapest so far and way cheaper than reloading. For the 7.62 it was even cheaper: €240/1000 for Barnaul, so not the same quality.

I also found out that the owner could get me 30rd polymer (Magpul) or aluminium (other) mags for €20 each.
That is much closer to the CZ's €14 per mag.

Both were very soft recoiling, but the AR was slightly faster back on target.

I came out of there, none the wiser about which to choose: I had hoped one would stand out as a favourite.

Still, I manned-up and made a decision.

Hence, I have just put down a 95% deposit on a Sig M400....

This is no snub of the CZ: I really, really liked it, but the fact that my tester had a trigger issue may have dampened my enthusiasm. However, this was a long-term investment: I won't be buying other rifles willy-nilly, so I had to choose one for the long-haul. In that respect, I had to look at the overall package, what it offered and which I'd enjoy/use/be competent with more in the years to come, rather than which was cheaper to buy now.

I wanted IPSC, but also a rifle to give my family and I a fighting chance if this region gets ugly. The CZ had bags of the rugged simplicity one would love in that but the M400 AR is by no means a dainty sewing machine, waiting to break-down. Provided I don't spent months in the bush with only grit as a lube, the M400 should be fine!
I have no hunting licence yet, so that I decided I could not give equal importance to calibre ( at >6.5mm the CZ qualifies for big game, but not the AR), especially as I have shotgun and .308 options already.

So I went to the shop, having agreed on a price of €1000 for a standard M400 (no sights, standard furniture, 1 30rd mag) with a second mag thrown in. That would have been €195 off the full retail. Not bad: 17% off

However, ..... when I got there, the evil shop dudes uttered the fateful words "We also have....", my eyes bulged at the options and it snow-balled from there.

In the end I still got the M400 (M400 FDE Patrol Enhanced), but one with a Flat Dark Earth Cerokote, Magpul pistol grip and stock, irons including rear folding polymer back-up sights, 2 additional 30rd mags and the standard 10rd mag.
All that for €1100. Bought at full price I'd have been looking at €1345. 18% off! All-in-all, my wallet has a dull ache, but I feel pretty damn good!

2damnold4this · September 12, 2014, 07:50 AM

Congrats on your new purchase. I foresee lots of fun putting rounds down range in your future.

Markhm · September 12, 2014, 08:44 AM

That was Gold! Nice to see a sense of humour still exists. Where in Europe are you?

marine6680 · September 12, 2014, 09:21 AM

Nice... Option it up. You will enjoy that rifle a lot.

Being a carbine length gas system, when you fire it, check the brass for swipe and extractor marks. If you see any, a simple buffer change will stop that. I don't know how easy it would be for you to order a heavier buffer where you live...

But a simple solution would be to use lead shot in the buffer instead of the steel weights. Or if you have access to shotgun shells with non-lead tungsten/heavy shot, that would work just as well or better.

I like my Vz a lot, but I love my AR... Carrying an A2 all through boot and MCT gave the platform a special place for me.

Pond, James Pond · September 12, 2014, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Being a carbine length gas system, when you fire it, check the brass for swipe and extractor marks. If you see any, a simple buffer change will stop that. I don't know how easy it would be for you to order a heavier buffer where you live...

Right on, man!! <nervous grin and palpable pause>

Sorry, what?

As you may have guessed, the inner workings and subtlety of adjustment with ARs is still lost on me. I imagine that the buffer somehow alters the inertia with which a case is ejected. Does this have any ramifications for reliable extraction?

Although I'd like to work up some known loads in case of a shortage, factory ammo is way cheaper than reloaded, so dinging brass wold not be the end of the world. If not, even better, but I can live with it for now.

Quote:

Where in Europe are you?

Estonia: the Swallow perched beside the Bear.

Dirty_Harry · September 12, 2014, 10:16 AM

Congrats on your purchase!

any plans for optics?

marine6680 · September 12, 2014, 10:18 AM

The buffer has a main function and a secondary function.

The main function is to control bolt bounce. The bolt carrier can bounce back a little when moving forward, and that makes the bolt slightly out of battery for a very brief time, a few microseconds. This is really only an issue for full auto fire, as semi fire is slow enough for the bolt to be at rest. The buffer contains weights that are free floating and can move. They work like a dead blow hammer to stop bounce.

The second function is to give mass to the system to regulate cycling speed and retard extraction until pressures drop.

A heavier buffer slows bolt unlocking.

Buffers come in standard, heavy (H), H2, and H3... From light to heaviest. The difference is the material and amount used in the internal weights. Standard Buffers are unmarked and are really not the standard any more. Most go with an H to start with.

Buffers are easy to disassemble, and the weights can be swapped... Which is handy if you don't want to buy all the different versions for troubleshooting or just in case, the cheap standard and the H3 can be combined to make any size.

Spikes makes a buffer that uses tungsten powder rather than solid weights.

Using that as inspiration, should new parts be a long wait hassle... Lead shot or non-lead heavy shot could be used in a similar manner.

This is mostly good for reloaders as the brass is stressed much less... Not just dings, but worse issues that shorten brass life.

Slowing the cycling down is also better for the rifle, as it lowers stress on the bolt and other parts.

Pond, James Pond · September 12, 2014, 10:24 AM

Quote:

any plans for optics?

Yes and no.

With the AR, I am not restricted to a red-dot way out in front, although a 'dot is what I have right now, so I'll make do for now, assuming I don't just run it with the "iron" sights it comes with (polymer actually).

I had always thought that the Leupold VX-R type scopes with their smaller objective lens would actually give little light and small FoV and wondered what the point of them was, but upon reading about them I realise that is not the case. Big FoV and good clear picture.

So this, and the fact they are quite compact and streamline means I could well see myself mounting a scope of that type further down the line: It would give me the visibility to put rounds on target at 300m, if not all bullseyes, and enough clarity for indoor action, like IPSC bunker stages.

Am I wrong with that logic?

Pond, James Pond · September 12, 2014, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Slowing the cycling down is also better for the rifle, as it lowers stress on the bolt and other parts.

Buffer 101 question coming up: So why not just whack it up to H3 to begin with?

Presumably you can go too heavy...

How many grams are we talking for a standard buffer weight and what sorts of weight increments separate those from the H, H2s and H3s?

Mosin-Marauder · September 12, 2014, 10:34 AM

Do you need an AR magazine? I have one I could send you.

highpower3006 · September 12, 2014, 10:36 AM

Congratulations! AR's are no where near a fussy as some would have you believe. Because of their design, the have a tremendous degree of inherent accuracy and even a short barreled Ar is a pretty accurate rifle.

I predict that the more you shoot it the better you will like it.

For many years I had only the AR15-A2 that I built as a competition gun for service rifle matches. Then something went haywire in my brain a few months ago and I started to build a few retro AR15/M16's Now I have five and enough to build a couple more.

The old ones:

The M4gery:

Pond, James Pond · September 12, 2014, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Do you need an AR magazine? I have one I could send you.

Much appreciated offer, but I am all the way over in Estonia and so postage might not be so cheap and I'm wary of asking anyone State-side to send stuff like that because I believe some gun parts, although seemingly harmless to us, are on US Govt no-post lists: don't want a bunch of Escalades with blacked out windows plough onto your lawn, sirens blaring!!

Pond, James Pond · September 12, 2014, 11:08 AM

Here is what it looks like, straight from the Sig web-page:

marine6680 · September 12, 2014, 11:09 AM

Yes you can go too heavy.

Cheap ammo is sometimes weak and too heavy a buffer can cause the action to not cycle properly with that ammo... As the rifle gets dirty (after 500rds or more) the action can be slowed and cause cycling issues as well.

I hear that 5.56 spec ammo can run very well for a long time using an H3 though... But that is second hand info.

If you go to heavy, usually the problems manifest as the bolt not locking open on last round, or the next round will not strip and feed. That is the test to see if you have reliable function. Load several mags with two rounds and ensure feeding and lock open several times using the cheapest/weakest ammo you run regularly.

My mid gas runs well using cheap tula ammo and an H2, a carbine gas should run an H2 as well with no issues... But there are other factors like gas port size that affect this as well, and each manufacturer can have slightly different gas port size.

As far as weights, I'm not sure off the top of my head the different ones, there is info a plenty about that with a quick Google search. I know the difference between them is a an ounce or two per increase.

Keep in mind, this is not necessary for the rifle to function properly... Just to enhance reliability and make sure brass is stressed less if you reload. It does smooth out the recoil a bit too.

bedlamite · September 12, 2014, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pond, James Pond

How many grams are we talking for a standard buffer weight and what sorts of weight increments separate those from the H, H2s and H3s?

motorhead0922 · September 12, 2014, 11:26 AM

Great choice, PJP. I love it!

surveyor · September 12, 2014, 11:27 AM

Quote:

However, ..... when I got there, the evil shop dudes uttered the fateful words "We also have....", my eyes bulged at the options and it snow-balled from there.

yep, it is a worldwide conspiracy with the evil shop dudes....
mine is a psychic...it seems like he knows what i want even before i do..

you will like the ar..good choice..

Jim243 · September 12, 2014, 11:32 AM

Nice going and congratulations. Welcome to the AR club, while not the prettiest girl at the dance, she will certainly be your most popular and get to go out the most with you. (LOL)

Again, congratulations.
Jim

Mosin-Marauder · September 12, 2014, 12:32 PM

James, I really wouldn't mind sending it if you need it. I don't think there is an law against mailing a 30 round Magazine. Just tell me and I'll send it if you want. I really have no use for it, as I dont own an AR.

motorhead0922 · September 12, 2014, 01:02 PM

Quote:

I don't think there is an law against mailing a 30 round Magazine.

Magazines are ITAR regulated. You can't help James on this one.

Mosin-Marauder · September 12, 2014, 01:06 PM

Well, crap. Sorry, James. Hope everything goes well with your new AR.

dakota.potts · September 12, 2014, 01:16 PM

Sweet. I love the CZ and I immediately noticed the same simplicity you did. But if you can only have one forever, especially if things go bad, the AR was a good choice. It's an armorer's weapon. If something goes wrong, you can replace almost every part with no major tools (barring your barrel blowing up or something crazy) and the parts are very common. That is a nice rifle too. I'm actually amazed that there are still countries in Europe where you can own such a rifle. gunpolicy.org says you guys can concealed carry with a license too, so your gun laws actually don't sound atrocious considering the continent you're on.

Pond, James Pond · September 12, 2014, 01:27 PM

Quote:

you guys can concealed carry with a license too

Certainly can!!

There are a few irritating aspects to the gun law here, but nothing I can't live with in order to own legally.

Quote:

Well, crap. Sorry, James. Hope everything goes well with your new AR.

The thought was much appreciated. Luckily I have found a mag supply that is well within my budget. I'll get one a month between now and spring and I'll be sorted!!

Darker Loaf · September 12, 2014, 01:29 PM

Good work Pond, James Pond! An AR will serve you well. I am pleased to hear that you got to try the rifles first before making your decision. So many people, including myself, do not get a chance to try said guns before buying them.

You can read all you want to about gun X, Y, or Z trying to filter out the author's bias as you are able, but it is no substitute for pushing some lead out the barrel. Give us a status update and let us know what you think after 1k to 2k rounds. Remember to seat those mags! Have fun and be safe!

marine6680 · September 12, 2014, 01:57 PM

Remember that pmags will allow 31 rounds (barely) but will not seat if the bolt is forward. If you are not paying attention you can overload the mag.

This extra room was added to ensure ample room for the rounds to move down if you insert a mag bolt forward.

Pmags are one of the best mags for the AR platform. There are others out there as well, but pmags tend to be the more affordable outside the old GI aluminum mags.

September 12, 2014, 07:43 AM	#1
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	The moment the entire global shooting community has been waiting for! Yes, that's right! You heard it here first! P,JP has decided and paid!! I went for a side-by-side shoot this morning of a Colt AR and CZ VZ58. Both were very nice and shot well. Indeed, as described, the VZ did have a trigger issue. The owner was aware of the welding fix, had tried it, but with limited success. The internals of the CZ really appealed: so simple! Looked like 1.5 moving parts!! It shot well, though, despite the trigger hassle. Then came the AR: heavier, but more comfortable to hold. Tighter groups and better ergos in terms of smoother mag changes, bolt release etc. It, too, was very nice to shoot. Whilst there, I established that I could get decent brass-cased AR ammo for about €350/1000: cheapest so far and way cheaper than reloading. For the 7.62 it was even cheaper: €240/1000 for Barnaul, so not the same quality. I also found out that the owner could get me 30rd polymer (Magpul) or aluminium (other) mags for €20 each. That is much closer to the CZ's €14 per mag. Both were very soft recoiling, but the AR was slightly faster back on target. I came out of there, none the wiser about which to choose: I had hoped one would stand out as a favourite. Still, I manned-up and made a decision. Hence, I have just put down a 95% deposit on a Sig M400.... This is no snub of the CZ: I really, really liked it, but the fact that my tester had a trigger issue may have dampened my enthusiasm. However, this was a long-term investment: I won't be buying other rifles willy-nilly, so I had to choose one for the long-haul. In that respect, I had to look at the overall package, what it offered and which I'd enjoy/use/be competent with more in the years to come, rather than which was cheaper to buy now. I wanted IPSC, but also a rifle to give my family and I a fighting chance if this region gets ugly. The CZ had bags of the rugged simplicity one would love in that but the M400 AR is by no means a dainty sewing machine, waiting to break-down. Provided I don't spent months in the bush with only grit as a lube, the M400 should be fine! I have no hunting licence yet, so that I decided I could not give equal importance to calibre ( at >6.5mm the CZ qualifies for big game, but not the AR), especially as I have shotgun and .308 options already. So I went to the shop, having agreed on a price of €1000 for a standard M400 (no sights, standard furniture, 1 30rd mag) with a second mag thrown in. That would have been €195 off the full retail. Not bad: 17% off However, ..... when I got there, the evil shop dudes uttered the fateful words "We also have....", my eyes bulged at the options and it snow-balled from there. In the end I still got the M400 (M400 FDE Patrol Enhanced), but one with a Flat Dark Earth Cerokote, Magpul pistol grip and stock, irons including rear folding polymer back-up sights, 2 additional 30rd mags and the standard 10rd mag. All that for €1100. Bought at full price I'd have been looking at €1345. 18% off! All-in-all, my wallet has a dull ache, but I feel pretty damn good! Last edited by Pond, James Pond; September 12, 2014 at 06:11 PM.

September 12, 2014, 11:08 AM	#13
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Here is what it looks like, straight from the Sig web-page: Last edited by Pond, James Pond; September 12, 2014 at 06:12 PM.

September 12, 2014, 07:50 AM	#2
2damnold4this Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 2,607	Congrats on your new purchase. I foresee lots of fun putting rounds down range in your future.

September 12, 2014, 08:44 AM	#3
Markhm Junior Member Join Date: May 17, 2014 Posts: 14	That was Gold! Nice to see a sense of humour still exists. Where in Europe are you?

September 12, 2014, 09:21 AM	#4
marine6680 Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2012 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 4,594	Nice... Option it up. You will enjoy that rifle a lot. Being a carbine length gas system, when you fire it, check the brass for swipe and extractor marks. If you see any, a simple buffer change will stop that. I don't know how easy it would be for you to order a heavier buffer where you live... But a simple solution would be to use lead shot in the buffer instead of the steel weights. Or if you have access to shotgun shells with non-lead tungsten/heavy shot, that would work just as well or better. I like my Vz a lot, but I love my AR... Carrying an A2 all through boot and MCT gave the platform a special place for me.

September 12, 2014, 10:16 AM	#6
Dirty_Harry Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2006 Location: Kalamazoo, MI Posts: 1,484	Congrats on your purchase! any plans for optics?

September 12, 2014, 10:18 AM	#7
marine6680 Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2012 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 4,594	The buffer has a main function and a secondary function. The main function is to control bolt bounce. The bolt carrier can bounce back a little when moving forward, and that makes the bolt slightly out of battery for a very brief time, a few microseconds. This is really only an issue for full auto fire, as semi fire is slow enough for the bolt to be at rest. The buffer contains weights that are free floating and can move. They work like a dead blow hammer to stop bounce. The second function is to give mass to the system to regulate cycling speed and retard extraction until pressures drop. A heavier buffer slows bolt unlocking. Buffers come in standard, heavy (H), H2, and H3... From light to heaviest. The difference is the material and amount used in the internal weights. Standard Buffers are unmarked and are really not the standard any more. Most go with an H to start with. Buffers are easy to disassemble, and the weights can be swapped... Which is handy if you don't want to buy all the different versions for troubleshooting or just in case, the cheap standard and the H3 can be combined to make any size. Spikes makes a buffer that uses tungsten powder rather than solid weights. Using that as inspiration, should new parts be a long wait hassle... Lead shot or non-lead heavy shot could be used in a similar manner. This is mostly good for reloaders as the brass is stressed much less... Not just dings, but worse issues that shorten brass life. Slowing the cycling down is also better for the rifle, as it lowers stress on the bolt and other parts.

September 12, 2014, 10:34 AM	#10
Mosin-Marauder Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2014 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,320	Do you need an AR magazine? I have one I could send you.

September 12, 2014, 10:36 AM	#11
highpower3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Location: Savannah TN Posts: 1,221	Congratulations! AR's are no where near a fussy as some would have you believe. Because of their design, the have a tremendous degree of inherent accuracy and even a short barreled Ar is a pretty accurate rifle. I predict that the more you shoot it the better you will like it. For many years I had only the AR15-A2 that I built as a competition gun for service rifle matches. Then something went haywire in my brain a few months ago and I started to build a few retro AR15/M16's Now I have five and enough to build a couple more. The old ones: The M4gery:

September 12, 2014, 11:09 AM	#14
marine6680 Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2012 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 4,594	Yes you can go too heavy. Cheap ammo is sometimes weak and too heavy a buffer can cause the action to not cycle properly with that ammo... As the rifle gets dirty (after 500rds or more) the action can be slowed and cause cycling issues as well. I hear that 5.56 spec ammo can run very well for a long time using an H3 though... But that is second hand info. If you go to heavy, usually the problems manifest as the bolt not locking open on last round, or the next round will not strip and feed. That is the test to see if you have reliable function. Load several mags with two rounds and ensure feeding and lock open several times using the cheapest/weakest ammo you run regularly. My mid gas runs well using cheap tula ammo and an H2, a carbine gas should run an H2 as well with no issues... But there are other factors like gas port size that affect this as well, and each manufacturer can have slightly different gas port size. As far as weights, I'm not sure off the top of my head the different ones, there is info a plenty about that with a quick Google search. I know the difference between them is a an ounce or two per increase. Keep in mind, this is not necessary for the rifle to function properly... Just to enhance reliability and make sure brass is stressed less if you reload. It does smooth out the recoil a bit too.

September 12, 2014, 11:26 AM	#16
motorhead0922 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 635	Great choice, PJP. I love it!

September 12, 2014, 11:32 AM	#18
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Nice going and congratulations. Welcome to the AR club, while not the prettiest girl at the dance, she will certainly be your most popular and get to go out the most with you. (LOL) Again, congratulations. Jim

September 12, 2014, 12:32 PM	#19
Mosin-Marauder Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2014 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,320	James, I really wouldn't mind sending it if you need it. I don't think there is an law against mailing a 30 round Magazine. Just tell me and I'll send it if you want. I really have no use for it, as I dont own an AR.

September 12, 2014, 01:06 PM	#21
Mosin-Marauder Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2014 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,320	Well, crap. Sorry, James. Hope everything goes well with your new AR.

September 12, 2014, 01:16 PM	#22
dakota.potts Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2013 Location: Keystone Heights, Florida Posts: 3,084	Sweet. I love the CZ and I immediately noticed the same simplicity you did. But if you can only have one forever, especially if things go bad, the AR was a good choice. It's an armorer's weapon. If something goes wrong, you can replace almost every part with no major tools (barring your barrel blowing up or something crazy) and the parts are very common. That is a nice rifle too. I'm actually amazed that there are still countries in Europe where you can own such a rifle. gunpolicy.org says you guys can concealed carry with a license too, so your gun laws actually don't sound atrocious considering the continent you're on.

September 12, 2014, 01:29 PM	#24
Darker Loaf Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2012 Posts: 715	Good work Pond, James Pond! An AR will serve you well. I am pleased to hear that you got to try the rifles first before making your decision. So many people, including myself, do not get a chance to try said guns before buying them. You can read all you want to about gun X, Y, or Z trying to filter out the author's bias as you are able, but it is no substitute for pushing some lead out the barrel. Give us a status update and let us know what you think after 1k to 2k rounds. Remember to seat those mags! Have fun and be safe!

September 12, 2014, 01:57 PM	#25
marine6680 Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2012 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 4,594	Remember that pmags will allow 31 rounds (barely) but will not seat if the bolt is forward. If you are not paying attention you can overload the mag. This extra room was added to ensure ample room for the rounds to move down if you insert a mag bolt forward. Pmags are one of the best mags for the AR platform. There are others out there as well, but pmags tend to be the more affordable outside the old GI aluminum mags.