Spray case lube will not kill powder! Uh, OK

[wogpotter]

Really?

Its the only thing I can think of that is "wet" in my reloading process.

I dry tumble, not even using brass polish in the media.
I reloaded these back in September of 2013 & started the box of 50 today.
CCI 200m primers from a brick I've been using with zero problems.
H335 powder that I used to reload just yesterday with no issues.
First 3 were click....bang.
No 4 was just click, no bang.
Waited the 30 secs & opened the action.
The primer fired driving the bullet just into the lands & flinging unburnt powder everywhere.
It smelt "off", not the acetone smell you get from deteriorating powder, but acidic like Pakistani 7.62 does.
Popped the bullet out of the bore & cleaned up the mess.
Loaded & fired again click.
OK were done!
I took one of the (identical) clumps sat it on a patch & lit it. It did burn, but slowly & abnormally with more of the same bad smell & then it left this, not the usual small ash residue.
Luckily I only have about a dozen of these so I'll pull them down & check.
Pics:
Clump & primer.


clump inside edge


clump outside edge


burned clump.

It really looks like lube got into the case mouth & pooled down inside killing the powder dropped in later!

[Gster]

Very well could have been the spray . Maybe you paused a little too long in one spot. Who knows? If it was the spray lube, you obviously used too much on those cases. I use One Shot and spray all four sides while rotating the loading tray 90 degrees after the shot and spraying down at about a 45 degree angle.

[Vance]

Yes, if the spray lube got into your case and pooled in it, then you used too much.

I use Dillons spray lube and only give a couple of sprays on my cases that are layed out. Then I let them dry. I don't tumble or roll them, just let them dry. Never have had a stuck case and no powder contamination.

[tobnpr]

Wow.
I've used One-Shot for years, and getting the "right" amount and coverage of the spray, is a bit tricky and takes some experience.

Not enough into the necks (spray at a 45 degree angle), and the case will start to stick in the decapping/sizing die- and I'll back it out and re-spray the rack.

Too much, and it'll leave enough residue (as a liquid) to put a small dent in the case shoulder as the brass is compressed against the die.

I agree with the others that it looks like you way over-did it.

Which spray lube did you use?

[coldbeer]

I spray just little inside the cases and never had a problem. Then again I also tumble my brass after sizing. Are you at least letting the cases dry a little bit before loading them?

[1stmar]

Tobnpr one thing that helps sticky necks is spraying some in the die.

[skizzums]

i always tumble again after spray lubing, i thought i was paranoid, but was always worried about your exact scenario

[Mike / Tx]

Most of the "spray" lubes have a carrier which will evaporate leaving on the lube behind. Usually this is a lanolin or similar type lube as it is easiest to get to suspend in the light carrier and it does a great job. I would say that if you sprayed these cases several months ago, then loaded them recently there would really be no issue with the lube. Even if you had sprayed and loaded them months ago I still would have to think the lube had dried to a point, before you dumped the powder and seated the bullets, that it wouldn't likely be an issue.

That said, and having used most of the spray type lubes in one or the other brand for over 25 years, I have never experienced what your showing. I have however seen that exact thing when the primer wasn't seated fully into the bottom of the pocket.

The firing pin will hit it with enough force to ignite the primer, which instead of igniting the powder, it simply scorches it. As such the coatings will adhere to the grains in a similar fashion to what you see there.

I took one of the (identical) clumps sat it on a patch & lit it. It did burn, but slowly & abnormally with more of the same bad smell & then it left this, not the usual small ash residue.

As mentioned with the coating singed or scorched this would give it a different appearance and a different burn, as compared to a pile of new out of the jug powder.

I'm not saying that this is definitively your issue, but if everything else was the same and worked in other loads recently loaded, it could be possible that you simply short stroked the primers just a touch.

[wogpotter]

The spray is the Hornady aerosol in the red & white can. I've previously used Midway & dillons pump spray with no problems at all.

My technique is almost certainly part of the problem, allowing spray to get into the case mouth. I used to use load blocks, but following interweb advice I switched to laying on newspaper. I'm going back to the case blocks immediately.

I use a progressive press so there is no intermediate tumbling possible the first stage deprimes, prinmes & sizes & the next one drops the powder. Because of that I first spray the cases & then set up everything else, giving the carrier lots of evaporation time. Probably 2X or 3X the time suggested.

I don't think I over spray, if anything I tend to under spray, particularly with the Hornady, I guess its the difference between a pressurized aerosol & a pump spray.

Having said all that, the fact remains that the stuff can & did contaminate the powder, regardless of how it got there.

[Longshot4]

I suspect you got too close when you sprayed the necks causing lube to pool. I have that same problem of drips with spray paint. I have been using my RCBS pad since the seventies and brush the inside of necks. I spread the lube with my fingers on the outside for a even coat. I suggest you do the same.

[Marco Califo]

You must tumble (or however you clean) off the lube after sizing. Do not pass Go do not collect $200
You must thoroughly clean the lube off after resizing and before priming. If you left ANY amount of lube of any type on the brass you will have a problem.
The purpose of the lube is to prevent sticking in the sizing die, and a good lube will ease sizing effort. Then the lube must be removed.
That is a big reason why I do not want a progressive press. It may work great for pistol ammo, but bottleneck cases require separate steps.

I think you may want to size and then clean without the progressize press.
Then only use already sized and clean brass on your progressive (remove the sizing die).

[LarryFlew]

I use one shot and in thousands of 223 and 300 blackout have never re-tumbled after sizing and have never had any problem. I do leave a lot of drying time after spraying.

[tobnpr]

You must tumble (or however you clean) off the lube after sizing. Do not pass Go do not collect $200
You must thoroughly clean the lube off after resizing and before priming. If you left ANY amount of lube of any type on the brass you will have a problem.
The purpose of the lube is to prevent sticking in the sizing die, and a good lube will ease sizing effort. Then the lube must be removed.
That is a big reason why I do not want a progressive press. It may work great for pistol ammo, but bottleneck cases require separate steps.

I don't follow your point.

Why do you feel lube needs to be removed from the case before priming (which is the next station in the progressive press)?

NO lube gets on the bottom of the case/ inside the primer pocket, as the cases are held upright in a reloading block where they are shielded from the lube spray.

The primer in the shuttle would have no idea whether the case in the station has lube on it, or not...

Obviously, all the cases are wiped clean of the lube before packing into the cartridge cases.

[lee n. field]

Spray case lube will not kill powder! Uh, OK

How much are you using? I use RCBS' spray lube.

What I do is spritz a little into a plastic baggie, and tumble the brass in that for a few seconds.

[wogpotter]

I used the RCBS & had not one problem with it. Except I can't find it here locally!
I used the Hornady but it seems to need more than the RCBS did for the same amount of lubricity.
The RCBS was a misting from 2' away, if I do that with the Hornady the cases start shuddering as I size. I'd guess I use about twice as much as with the old RCBS/Dillon/Midway pump bottles.

You must tumble (or however you clean) off the lube after sizing. Do not pass Go do not collect $200

I don't get it. How do other progressive users successfully use other spray lubes if that is true?

[chiefr]

Case lube and powder does NOT mix. See you learned something I learned when the spray lube first came out.
Been using a lube pad and will continue to do so.

No overspray, a small bottle will outlast many spray cans, and you don't have to worry about sprayer head problems.

[Slamfire]

Looks like you converted gunpowder into Gold! You have solved our balance of trade issues, too bad, at the present time, gunpowder is harder to find than gold.

Are you sure that this was due to lube? How old was that gunpowder?

[skizzums]

i do what lee does, instead of a ziplock baggie, i use a tubberware container and tumble while spraying, i use to use the block and it just wasted lube compared to tumbling

[A pause for the COZ]

It may not be a wet problem...

I have had two of those kinds of things happen with lightish loads of BLC-2 with my Mosin Nagant.

Some powders just really dont like air space in the case.

Thats were the idea of hear the click. Wait a minute before opening the bolt.
Might go bang at any time as that wad of powder smolders.

[Marco Califo]

Why do you feel lube needs to be removed from the case before priming

Lube is a unneeded contaminate, Primers are not intended to be contaminant proof and to ignite contaminated powder consistently.
Introducing lube, which I guess you do on a progessive is another variable to rule out or fix, when you get those results

I do not know how you can properly prep cases on a progressive press. I deprime, clean, resize, tumble, trim if needed, prime as separate steps and do 200 at a time at each step. I also do not want dirty cases in my sizing die.

[wogpotter]

But the primer fired normally, it was the powder that was contaminated, not the primer.

Incidentally this experience makes me wonder if (as is "common knowledge") that all click-BANGs are caused by degraded primers?

[Sport45]

Some powders just really dont like air space in the case.

I agree. I've had H-110 and Enforcer come out of the case looking pretty much just like that when the charge was too light and the WLP didn't do it's "standard or magnum" thing. Upping the charge and switching to CCI LPM primers made the problem go away altogether.

[F. Guffey]

I was asked to test fire a rifle involved in an inheritance with 'the ammo'.
Before I started I rejected half of the rounds, the powder did not shake/move, Then there were the cases that had loose powder, the first round I fired was a delay. The primer worked, the powder ignited but burned slowly, I waited, then finally bang. I pulled the remaining rounds down, some had the powder caked behind the bullet, others had powder caked in front of the primer.

Had I fired one of the cases with the caked powder behind the bullet I believe the rear of the receiver would have come apart, so when someone says "Here is how I do it" they are not likely to listen to someone that says they do not do it that way and here is the reason why. Another of my 'not favorite sayings', is 'all you gotta do is etc. etc..

Like someone said, they tumble after sizing, very good advise. The ammo I was to test was billed as ammo that was loaded by the greatest South Texas reloaders. I do not load for the far away future.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/blowups.htm

http://kwk.us/pressures.html

Wogpotter, forgive, there was space somewhere else so I moved most of it.

F. Guffey

[wogpotter]

How did we get into reduced loads?

These were regular loads 40.5 Gr of H335 in a .303 running a 150 gr bullet. What is the reduction's point, I'm confused.