The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Bolt, Lever, and Pump Action

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 20, 2014, 04:22 PM   #1
Agregory1994
Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2013
Posts: 40
30-06 vs .308 for mid to long range?

I have been looking at buying a new Howa Game king scoped package from Rural King, but the suckers can't order me a .308. I was wondering if the 30-06 version that every Rural king I have called has in stock for $450 would be a good compromise. I would like to start shooting from 500 to eventually 1000 yards. Thanks!
Agregory1994 is offline  
Old January 20, 2014, 05:07 PM   #2
PawPaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: Central Louisiana
Posts: 3,112
The .30-06 shoots the same bullet as the .308, but it's possible to put more powder behind the bullet. The bullet goes faster.

Now, many .30-06 loads are suited to the semi-automatic Garand, which is pressure sensitive. (I'm not knocking the Garand, fellows.) In a bolt rifle, it's possible to push those bullets a little bit faster and they'll fly a little longer before they go sub-sonic. In the .30-06, it's possible to push a 168 grain bullet to almost 2900 fps.

For myself, I consider the .30-06 a hunting round and I don't load it as hot as I might. I prefer to keep my loads down toward the minimums, but they serve me just fine.
__________________
Dennis Dezendorf

http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com
PawPaw is offline  
Old January 20, 2014, 05:18 PM   #3
Mystro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2004
Location: Central Pa.
Posts: 1,162
The 308 would be my first choice simply because its recoil is less which contributes to its stellar accuracy. The 30-06 shoots the same bullet with a bit more recoil on a longer action. If I wanted a long range hunting round on a long action, it would be a 270 instead of a 30-06 for its superior balistic coefficiency. All three are outstanding big game calibers.
__________________
"I'm a good guy with a gun" What do I care if I give up some freedom or rights?....The Goverment will take care of me. This kind of thinking is now in the majority and it should concern you.

"Ask not what you can do for your country, but what free entitlements you can bleed from your country"
Mystro is offline  
Old January 20, 2014, 08:23 PM   #4
GeauxTide
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: Helena, AL
Posts: 3,072
Easiest way to look at it. 308 is equal to the 30-06 to 150 grains. 165 and above, 30-06.
GeauxTide is offline  
Old January 20, 2014, 08:58 PM   #5
Againstthewind
Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2014
Posts: 60
Similiar

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...6062759AAT5T9y
The first comment goes along with what I have heard from other sources on the topic.

This chart compares the ballistics pretty nice. They look pretty much identical to me. http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/...Ballistics.pdf

I have both a .308 and 30-06 and I agree with the comments made for them above. The .308 I have tends to shoot the best with a 165 grain load for some reason. The 30-06 I have shoots about the same from 150 grains to 180 grains. Obviously it does better with better quality ammo. Those distances are way past my limit, but the ammo quality and the quality of the gun go a long way when you start getting up to the level of shooting you are talking about. For the same ammo and the same quality of gun, I would have to say the two are pretty much the same. To shoot those distances your scope will probably cost more than your rifle at the price you listed.
Againstthewind is offline  
Old January 20, 2014, 09:20 PM   #6
Agregory1994
Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2013
Posts: 40
Thanks for the help guys, the rifle is just a base that ill build on. I think I'll just go for the 30-06. Now just waiting for my W-2s
Agregory1994 is offline  
Old January 20, 2014, 10:03 PM   #7
tobnpr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2010
Location: Tampa Bay
Posts: 2,962
Just playin' devil's advocate for ya...

Why isn't the .06 more popular for long-range shooting?

It's less consistent (because the case is the same dia., but longer) in pressure and velocity... not a lot, but enough to make a difference in precision shooting.

Not that the .06 isn't capable- it is- but there are reasons you don't see them on the 1000 yard benches. Short actions in .30 cal are preferred.

Also much easier (and I'm guessing that because Howa has far less aftermarket support than Remington and Savage, perhaps even more relevant) to find match barrels and stocks for short actions simply because they're more popular.

Just saying- consider how seriously you intend to pursue 1000 yard shooting, and the ability to upgrade your rifle with stocks, triggers, and barrels that will be required as your skills improve- as part of your decision.
__________________
Custom Bent Bolts and Gunstocks for the Mosin-Nagant
www.biggorillagunworks.com
tobnpr is offline  
Old January 20, 2014, 10:10 PM   #8
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,475
Getting the 30-06 now is fine.

When you upgrade your rifle, replace the 30-06 barrel with a premium 308 with at least a heavy sporter contour or thicker for long range shooting, 1:11.25 twist recommended.

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/
Jimro is offline  
Old January 21, 2014, 08:28 AM   #9
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 4,826
Quote:
Easiest way to look at it. 308 is equal to the 30-06 to 150 grains. 165 and above, 30-06.
A popular misconception that’s easily countered when comparing the realities of both cartridges. So I'll level this playing field. Use SAAMI’s documents with data from hard-mounted 24" test barrels with the same bore and groove dimensions and measured peak pressure levels for each. Simplified, here’s what’s in print from them:

.30-06, peak pressure of 60,000 psi
110 gr. bullet, 3300 fps
125 gr. bullet, 3125 fps
150 gr. bullet, 2900 fps
165 gr. bullet, 2790 fps
180 gr. bullet, 2690 fps
200 gr. bullet, 2540 fps

.308, peak pressure of 62,000 psi; +2,000 psi
110 gr. bullet, 3150 fps; -150 fps
125 gr. bullet, 3030 fps; -95 fps
150 gr. bullet, 2800 fps; -100 fps
165 gr. bullet, 2670 fps; -120 fps
180 gr. bullet, 2600 fps; -90 fps
200 gr. bullet, 2440 fps; -100 fps

If the .30-06 was loaded to 62,000 psi, its bullets would leave a little bit faster increasing the muzzle velocity gap between these two cartridges.

Note that the first .308 Win. rifles had a standard, long action but a spacer in the back of its staggered box magazine and an extended rib on the extractor to stop the bolt about a half inch further forward. Winchester Model 70's.

In the middle 1960's, given an option between either cartridge, top ranked competitors chose the .308 because of its better accuracy and ease of shooting accurate. The most accurate .30-06 Garands and bolt action rifles shot about 30% more accurate after rebarreling to .308 chambered ones of the same quality using the same quality ammo. That improved accuracy resulted in too many unbreakable ties on the 60+ year old targets so the NRA reduced their scoring ring sizes a few years later.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master

Last edited by Bart B.; January 21, 2014 at 08:42 AM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old January 21, 2014, 08:34 AM   #10
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,441
Quote:
I would like to start shooting from 500 to eventually 1000 yards
To answer that question, either will work fine.

I shoot 168 Amax out of my vintage military rifles loaded moderately.

My M1903A4 starts at 2600 fps and has a remaining velocity of 1318 fps at 1000 yards

My Model 70 Target rifle shoots the same bullet, leaving @ 2550 and has a remaining velocity of 1290 fps at 1000 yards.

There isn't a nickels work of difference.

Both of these can be pushed faster but I don't see no need. I also use the same respective loads in my Garand and M1A.

In reality, if I was (and I have) to shoot 1000 yard matches I would do nothing to either load but switch to 175 SMKs.

If I was looking to buy the rifle you mentioned and one round was in stock and the other had to be ordered, I'd buy the one in stock, regardless whether it was '06 or 308.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old January 21, 2014, 08:50 AM   #11
garryc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2005
Posts: 2,314
I used a 30-06 for 1000 yards all the time. The trick is to go heavy, I used a Sierra 190gr Match King and 54.5 grains of H4831sc. The bullet is solidly supersonic at 1000 yards. The 168 and the 190 hit 100 yards very close to the same as far as ToF is concerned. The 190 handles wind better, almost 10 inches better in a 10mph cross.

Last edited by garryc; January 21, 2014 at 08:56 AM.
garryc is offline  
Old January 21, 2014, 09:30 AM   #12
Rifleman1776
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 3,309
Quote:
Why isn't the .06 more popular for long-range shooting?
Plain and simple: marketing
Really, in North America, only two cf cartridges are needed (big griz hunting excepted), the .223 and the 30-06.
It would be boring and gun and ammo manufacturers wouldn't have many options to advertise and sell.
The '06 is great for most long range shooting.
Rifleman1776 is offline  
Old January 21, 2014, 10:57 AM   #13
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 4,826
Rifleman1776, if it really was Plain and simple marketing then those folks shooting well enough to win the big matches and set records with the .308 easliy trouncing anything the .30-06 could do, they would have stuck with the .30-06. Even Sierra Bullets proved years ago that even at short ranges, i.e. their 100 yard indoor test range, the .308 case shot 30 caliber match bullets more accurate than the same ones from .30-06 cases. Marketing had nothing to do with it. It was a performance issue in accuracy attained as well as ease of shooting accurate. All one had to do was look at the results of the scores fired with both cartridges to see which one was best.

But as most folks don't know the details behind the .308's huge success in accuracy games, I understand why they think the .30-06 was a better round. With one tiny change in .30-06 chambers, they can shoot bullets almost as accurate as they would from .308 cases. But it's not worth doing it as the easier recoil while the bullets from .308 cases go down the barrel means they're easier to shoot so bullets strike closer to the point of aim.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master
Bart B. is offline  
Old January 22, 2014, 08:37 AM   #14
old roper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2007
Posts: 1,069
This is interesting article on 308 vs 30-06

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com...-vs-30-06.html
__________________
Semper Fi
Vietnam
VFW
old roper is offline  
Old January 22, 2014, 10:07 PM   #15
jmr40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 5,949
Quote:
Why isn't the .06 more popular for long-range shooting?
Because the extra speed is not needed for target shooting. If you are shooting at known ranges it is simply a matter of adjusting your sights. You only need enough bullet speed to punch through a paper target. The 308 is at least in theory a tiny bit more accurate and certainly has less recoil. At the end of the day it is a better target round, if for no other reason than reduced recoil. Less recoil means more quality practice time.

As a hunting round shooting at game at unknown ranges, and where the bullet has to actually punch through muscle and bone to destroy internal organs the extra speed of a 30-06 is a minor improvement. Especially with heavier bullets and on game larger than deer.

Truth is there isn't anything I'd hunt with one and not the other. I'd just need to get 50 yards closer with a 308.
jmr40 is offline  
Old January 22, 2014, 10:47 PM   #16
Mystro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2004
Location: Central Pa.
Posts: 1,162
Yea, this is the specs on a 308 Hornady 165 grain. There is no big game like elk that its not going to get killed even way out to 500 yards. Killing power is a non issue with the 308.

308 Winchester
Hornady 165 SST Interbond
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
MUZZLE 2840/2955
100 yards 2635/2544
200 yards. 2439/2180
300 yards. 2252/1858
400 yards. 2079/1574
500 yards. 1902/1325
__________________
"I'm a good guy with a gun" What do I care if I give up some freedom or rights?....The Goverment will take care of me. This kind of thinking is now in the majority and it should concern you.

"Ask not what you can do for your country, but what free entitlements you can bleed from your country"
Mystro is offline  
Old January 23, 2014, 11:14 AM   #17
savagecornmuffin
Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2013
Location: SE USA
Posts: 66
As one person mentioned, the '06 comes into it's own between 180 and 190 grains. If you're shooting 1000 yards with 150-168 grainers,.. then the 7mm and 6.5mm guy are going to beat you. I never understood why the 168gr is almost a 30 cal match standard. I never researched it either.

280 ACK, FTW! It's BCs are the bees knees.
savagecornmuffin is offline  
Old January 23, 2014, 01:23 PM   #18
Guv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2012
Location: South Texas
Posts: 896
I would base my choice on the particular rifle. If it were to be a full size sporter then 30-06, light weight or carbin type (Ruger 77 International) for example, I would go with the 308.
Guv is offline  
Old January 23, 2014, 02:33 PM   #19
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 4,826
savagecorn muffin:
Quote:
I never understood why the 168gr is almost a 30 cal match standard.
That all started in the late 1950's by folks at the US Army Marksmanship Unit's folks wanting a good bullet to use in 300 meter free rifle matches in Olympic and other international competition. They got in touch with the folks at Sierra Bullets and came up with the 168-gr. 30 caliber match bullet as a good compromise between recoil and wind bucking abilities when shot from the .308 Win. case. It won a lot of matches and set some records in the next few years. Frank Snow, one of Sierra Bullet’s founders, deserves credit for that bullet. See the info in the link below:

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com...-cold-war.html

It was also used in a .308 Win. rifle to win the 1963 High Power Nationals. And in the next couple of years, that bullet in the .308 Win. case broke all the 200 and 300 yard records held by the .30-06. 'Twas also used in some benchrest matches back then and all those stool shooters were amazed at how accurate it was.

Sierra's 168-gr. 30 caliber match bullet shot from .308 Win. cases was their first bullet larger than 24 caliber to shoot lots of 100 yard 10-shot test groups in the ones; under 2/10ths inch. Some went into the zeros; under 1/10th inch.

Too bad it wasn't popular for target use at ranges beyond 600 yards.

That bullet was the first 30 caliber hollow point match bullet Sierra made. It's boattail-body juncture had much smaller irregularities than their 180 and 200 grain 30 caliber FMBBT match bullets. A couple years later, those two heavies, along with a 190, all had hollow point bullets. 'Twas the success of the 168 that led to all 28 and 30 caliber match bullets Sierra made to have hollow points.

Thanks, Jimro, your comments spawned my ones added to this post.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master

Last edited by Bart B.; January 23, 2014 at 04:41 PM. Reason: A bit more interesting stuff. . . .
Bart B. is offline  
Old January 23, 2014, 02:58 PM   #20
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,475
I'll add my 2 cents.

After the 168 SMK was used to win the 300 Free Rifle events in the Olympics, Service Rifle shooters started making "Mexican Match" ammunition by pulling the FMJBT bullets from M118 match ammo and replacing it with the 168gr SMK.

In 1982 Lake City introduced M852 National Match ammo, same brass/primer/powder as M118 but launching the 168 SMK. 42grains of IMR 4895 was the nominal charge. Since Service rifle competition takes place at 200, 300, and 600 yards the 168 SMK did just fine in its role as National Match ammunition. Where it failed was in the transonic zone with its steep boat tail causing instability as velocity dropped off.

Still, the 168 SMK tends to shoot very accurately and most 308 shooters don't shoot at the distances where the transonic zone comes into play.

For Palma and Long Range High Power, the 155gr and 175gr SMK work fine for 1000 yard shooting. Newer bullet designs like the Berger 185 Juggernaut are doing very well from AR-10's for NRA long range high power, and Berger's 168 VLD match hybrid got rid of the steep boat tail so it handles the transonic range much better than the SMK.

Still, from 600 and under, the 168 SMK is a fine choice.

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/
Jimro is offline  
Old January 23, 2014, 05:18 PM   #21
Agregory1994
Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2013
Posts: 40
Thanks guys, it sounds like the small amount of difference between the .308 and 30-06 is small enough for me to buy the 30-06 now instead of ordering the same gun in .308 for $200 more.
Agregory1994 is offline  
Old January 23, 2014, 10:15 PM   #22
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 2,049
Personally I think a 30-06 with a match grade barrel (non M1) would do the same as a 308 but out further (if you loaded it up)

With the progressive powders you can get 300 WM capability.

I don't buy there is something inherent better about a 308 vs an 06.

I suspect time moved on, barrels got better and the round was 308, less recoil and more accurate. They now shoot long range stuff with smaller calibers. No one ever tuned the twist in the 30-06 like the 308 (the 1-10 was so versatile overall they left it as is). The 308 got a special twist and if you did the same thing to a 30-06 it would shoot as well (loose some flexibility but tune it for 168-175 with say a 1-11 and it would match the 308 (at least until the recoil got to you!)


What you can't find is a target 30-06 barreled gun, I think it would sell like hot cakes as people that shoot the old military guns would like to have a tac driver to see how good they really are form time to time.

And my step dads father took 5 big grizzlies with his 30-06, it pretty well matches up with 338 and 375 for that task, people just want a bigger boom when they hunt them and all the myths say they should (or course he was not a recreational hunter, he was keeping them away from his cabin)


Quote:
Plain and simple: marketing
Really, in North America, only two cf cartridges are needed (big griz hunting excepted), the .223 and the 30-06.
It would be boring and gun and ammo manufacturers wouldn't have many options to advertise and sell.
The '06 is great for most long range shooting.
RC20 is offline  
Old January 23, 2014, 10:43 PM   #23
5whiskey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 1,561
Quote:
Thanks guys, it sounds like the small amount of difference between the .308 and 30-06 is small enough for me to buy the 30-06 now instead of ordering the same gun in .308 for $200 more.
You'll be fine with the '06 while you're getting into long range shooting. There are many rifles chambered in this caliber shooting sub-moa... and honestly that's all you need to get started IMO. I will say that there are several advantages that a .308 has. First off, you can base it off a short action receiver and save some weight/bolt pull. Also, the .308 will do MUCH better out of a shorter barrel than an -06 will. -06 will do best out of a 24" barrel or longer. If you want a lighter, more compact rifle with an 18" or 20" barrel, the .06 would lose almost all of the velocity advantage it has over the .308. .308 is also more inherently accurate than the -06 but I don't think this should be much of a concern if you've never shot past 100 yards.

The -06 has advantages too. It simply pushes heavier bullets faster and better than the .308, especially out of a longer barrel. This can make a pretty significant energy difference.
5whiskey is offline  
Old January 23, 2014, 11:09 PM   #24
Sierra280
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 29, 2013
Location: Gardnerville, NV
Posts: 569
Either will be fine for the kind of shooting you want to do.

I have heard and read raging debates on the topic of 308 vs 30-06. We can discuss the finer technical points all day long but, I think it really comes down to one personal choice: Do you want a short action or a long action?
Sierra280 is offline  
Old January 24, 2014, 10:04 AM   #25
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 4,826
5 whiskey, what commercially available .30-06 rifle will shoot sub MOA at long range, i.e., 600 to 1000 yards? By sub MOA, I mean at the worst, not just an average number. I've not heard of any, but there just might be one.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master
Bart B. is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13878 seconds with 7 queries