Girl accidently shot at church

cannonfire · February 13, 2012, 06:30 PM

Not too long ago there was a discussion about carrying in church. Although this isn't about CC in church, its about people who I feel were acting inappropriately, never mind the ND.

Quote:

Investigators say Moises Zambrana took two men into a nearby closet to show his gun to another church member interested in buying a firearm. Zambrana has a concealed weapons permit and reportedly took out the gun's magazine, but did not know there was a bullet in the chamber.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/02/13...est=latestnews

What was that rule again? "Treat every weapon as if it were loaded?"

Technosavant · February 13, 2012, 06:55 PM

It was his own gun, and he didn't know there was one in the chamber?

Not only is this horrible gun handling (violating three of the four rules), but horrible awareness. The "I didn't know there was one in the chamber" is just outright stupid, since that means he was planning on racking the slide upon drawing the gun (something not easy to do), and he would have been the one to chamber the round to begin with! Methinks he is trying to hide a brain fart by pretending to be stupid negligent, not criminally negligent.

A tragic mistake caused by weapons-grade stupid.

Carry_24/7 · February 13, 2012, 08:04 PM

This could have happened anywhere; an irresponsible person handling a gun. I'll still carry in church.

Chuck M · February 13, 2012, 08:21 PM

...So should everyone carry, I don't think so. Don't get me wrong I love the fact that we live in a free country and have the rights that we do, however, some peoples kids just don't use the common sense they were born with. And the location really doesn't matter it's bad either way....PLAXICO!!!

FAIL!

rtpzwms · February 13, 2012, 09:39 PM

I’ve had a lot of emotions running through me after reading the article. First my heart felt sorrow for someone injured by the stupid actions of another. I understand the desire to share our knowledge and our love of firearms in general. There is a time and a place for everything, church is not the place to share this type of information IMHO. Go to a range!

My next feeling is that as a concealed carrier of a handgun you have a higher standard to hold, after all you are permitted to walk among us with your firearm. And as such I believe that you will through your actions, will help protect our rights to continue to carry concealed, failure of this will certainly get the general anti gunners working on removing this privilege/right.

Lastly I stop my rant with my agreement with Chuck M not everyone should carry concealed. I don’t have a better way to make the list a perfect system but it is clear that the system used to issue this permit came up short.

dmazur · February 13, 2012, 09:54 PM

When I got my driver's license, the instructor told me it was up to me to be a safe driver. Defensive driving, etc.

When I got my PADI card, the instructor told me it was up to me to be a safe diver. Plan the dive, then dive the plan, etc.

When I got my CPL, I kind of figured out it was up to me to be safe in my use of a concealed weapon, even though there was no instruction provided by Washington State.

I'm not sure any amount of training, or additional laws, are going to prevent negligent actions by stupid people.

I'm a firm believer in harsh punishment for the negligent among us. Though it would appear to be cruel, it would have two benefits -

1. It would provide an example of what can happen if you are negligent
2. It removes the negligent from society, so they can't do additional harm

I'm afraid that, if you want the truth, it isn't lack of laws that is the cause. It is that there are no real consequences for stupid acts.

Fishing_Cabin · February 13, 2012, 10:16 PM

Again, another tragedy to help us keep in mind the rules of gun safety. I feel for the injured girl and church family....

Though I know some here have mentioned that some people should not carry concealed...I will say that at times, we as a group of firearm owners, can be our own worst enemy, both by violating safety rules as in this tragic case, and secondly trying to limit others to firearms. Knowledge, and respect are powerful, and when either using a firearm on the range or in defense, or carrying a firearm, we must have both or obtain knowledge, and posses proper respect, or earn it. Horror stories such as this, may help give a person a second thought to be more respectful around firearms. Its the best one may hope for in a situation like this without going in to religion which isnt the place here.

wayneinFL · February 13, 2012, 10:34 PM

FYI, guys, this is already being discussed in T&T.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478892

Quote:

Lastly I stop my rant with my agreement with Chuck M not everyone should carry concealed. I don’t have a better way to make the list a perfect system but it is clear that the system used to issue this permit came up short.

He had training as a licensed armed security guard, 28 hours more than for armed security, with a yearly qualification. This is far far more than what is required by the state for concealed carry. How much more of a system would you ask for? Whatever it is, please do it in your own state.

Quote:

I'm afraid that, if you want the truth, it isn't lack of laws that is the cause. It is that there are no real consequences for stupid acts.

No consequences? This is quite possibly a crime ranging somewhere between culpable negligence and manslaughter. Not to mention civil damages. Not to mention the guy has to live the rest of his life knowing that he shot his pastor's daughter in the head. He's going to have to seek counseling from someone close, like his friends, his church, his pastor... no, wait... probably burned that bridge already.

There's a reason why we have 40,000 traffic deaths a year. The problem is that people are stupid. And even the bright ones make stupid or careless mistakes once in a while. Sometimes those mistakes get someone killed. That's life. Be careful out there.

dmazur · February 13, 2012, 10:42 PM

What I meant by "no consequences" is that, from what I've read, our criminal justice system hands out light sentences way, way too often.

The jails are overcrowded, you know.

I am somewhat of a cynic, but I doubt he'll do more than 5 years.

IMO, that's not enough. Not for the effects of his negligence. It means he'll be back in 5 years for another try at responsibility.

Ronbert · February 13, 2012, 11:47 PM

The licensed armed security guards who I experienced at my range actually couldn't shoot their way out of a wet paper bag. They were shooting the floor and the lights - anywhere but the target - slow fire.

I had to eject them and their Beavis "mistakes will happen huh huh huh" trainer on my first night as RO.

So I'd regard those alleged quals as suspicious at best. Security companies are in the business of being low-bidders.

rtpzwms · February 14, 2012, 12:05 AM

wayneinFL please source your statement below. It is not part of the link in this thread. I would like to see where you got this information.

Quote:

He had training as a licensed armed security guard, 28 hours more than for armed security, with a yearly qualification. This is far far more than what is required by the state for concealed carry. How much more of a system would you ask for? Whatever it is, please do it in your own state.

Ronbert

Quote:

The licensed armed security guards who I experienced at my range actually couldn't shoot their way out of a wet paper bag. They were shooting the floor and the lights - anywhere but the target - slow fire.

This is my experience with them as well. I had it happen at an indoor range they (3 of them) were in the lane to my right. If I recall correctly they were shooting Glock 17's. I was testing a new round in my PPK. I out shot them for accuracy and left quickly when they started "rapid fire". I was less then impressed.

wayneinFL · February 14, 2012, 12:17 AM

Quote:

wayneinFL please source your statement below. It is not part of the link in this thread. I would like to see where you got this information.

It's in the other thread, that I linked in my post. He has pictures of himself on facebook in two separate security uniforms, armed. That requires a G license, which is a mandatory 28 hours of training- beyond the 40 hours required for unarmed security.

Quote:

The licensed armed security guards who I experienced at my range actually couldn't shoot their way out of a wet paper bag.

Didn't say they were proficient, said they had mandatory training, yet there are a lot of people who are calling for more mandatory training. There have been instances of law enforcement trainers shooting people by accident. They have a lot of training but carelessness kills.

Knowing something is not the same as practicing it in real life. You can be taught not to run a red light easily enough. Everyone knows it's wrong from the time they're 5 years old. But people run red lights all day long.

Fishing_Cabin · February 14, 2012, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayneinFL

No consequences? This is quite possibly a crime ranging somewhere between culpable negligence and manslaughter. Not to mention civil damages.

I was unaware she was dead. While I do feel this is tragic and that a person "is" responsible, it is weird that you mention that someone is responsible for something as serious as manslaughter in this case, but others feel shooting an off duty officer coming home in uniform some responding to a witnessed violation people may feel is less. I never saw manslaughter mentioned on the thread about "self defense gone wrong." I was always taught and will believe that any round I fired, I am responsible for. I feel a life is just as equal to another life. I feel both cases are tragic, but could have been prevented. Both cases are good learning tools for others.

edited to add my comment on the thread I mentioned.

I saw wayneinFL reply to another thread mentioning manslaughter in the case of the accidental shooting in church shooting incident. Since I replied there and asked the question, I wanted to reply here as well and ask a similar question.

Since in the church shooting it is more a case of a pure accident, but in the self defense gone wrong case it is more of a mistaken intent as you will, which should carry more punishment, or should they be similar?

Mods, take note, I do feel this is a very valid question in both cases.

Eddited again to add:

I do not feel either case really had any evil intent, but the actions warrent a level of punishment.

wayneinFL · February 14, 2012, 12:40 AM

Quote:

I was unaware she was dead. While I do feel this is tragic and that a person "is" responsible, it is weird that you mention that someone is responsible for something as serious as manslaughter in this case, but others feel shooting an off duty officer coming home in uniform some responding to a witnessed violation people may think is less.

She's not dead. Not yet, anyway. I'm thinking of the worst possible outcome in this situation.

As for the guy who shot the cop- he could be charged with aggravated assault or with attempted murder. Or he could walk. Hard to say at this point. It's going to be hard to show reasonable doubt if the cop was in uniform and the suspect got a good look at him.

Fishing_Cabin · February 14, 2012, 12:54 AM

wayneinFL, I wasnt trying to single you out. I have read here, and on other forums peoples views today of the church and the officers shooting, and spoke to others as well. That may be tainting my views on this. I admit to that. I agree both should be charged and last I heard in the officers shooting the person was charged with attempted murder.

Perhaps I should have been more clear citing the above. I could agree with an unvoluntary manslaughter charge if she died, but again I tend to agree with the attempted murder charge as well in the other case. Once we fire any shot by accident, on the range or in defense, we cant take it back. What happens happens. I guess as a Christian, and a person who struggles to treat others equally and ask for the same, its just wierd to me. As to the case of the officer shot, I read on another forum a poster felt it was the officers fault in many ways.

I guess what I mentioned earlier, and I do not feel it can be repeated enough is that we are responsible for our own actions, rightly or wrongly, even if we didnt intend the outcome. I hold to my thought that at times we CAN be our own worst enemy.

P.S. wayneinFL. Please accept my appology. I didnt mean to single you out, it was more of the confusion on ideas between the two cases, both here, other forums, and in real life opinions.

thallub · February 14, 2012, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Since in the church shooting it is more a case of a pure accident..

Let's get something straight. It was not a "pure accident". It was an negligent discharge, in church, no less. The guy learned nothing in all his hours of "training". Hes an idiot.

Skans · February 14, 2012, 10:50 AM

Hiding in a church closet showing off your gun??? That has to be Webster's definition of "low moron".

Technosavant · February 14, 2012, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Let's get something straight. It was not a "pure accident". It was an negligent discharge, in church, no less.

Fully agree here.

It is only accidental in that it was not intended. Every other single thing about this was negligent.

He was negligent in several different ways:
1) He did not know the condition of HIS OWN GUN.
2) He did not know or practice proper method for clearing the gun.
3) He pulled the trigger on a gun which was not properly cleared.
4) The muzzle was not pointed in a safe direction... indoor walls are NOT safe directions.
5) He did not know (or possibly even care) what was on the other side of that wall when he pulled the trigger.

He could have unloaded it competently. He could have not pulled the trigger. He could have pointed it at the floor. He could have pointed it anywhere else. He could have just left the thing holstered instead of playing show and tell in the most incompetent manner. He did none of those things, and an innocent girl paid the price... hopefully she will make a full recovery, but that remains to be seen.

Does he deserve jail time? I wish I was wise enough to determine that. But I'm quite sure he shouldn't get away without SOME kind of penalty... at the very least, revocation of his CCW permit for a length of time.

IrishBluEyes51 · February 14, 2012, 04:55 PM

Accidents happen, you can't legislate anything to perfection. you can however create consequences that cleanse the system of those that refuse to show it the respect it demands therefore self legislating the chl laws. we do not need more restrictions.

BUFF · February 14, 2012, 06:57 PM

There was a thread on here about carrying at the gym. This is the kind of thing I was talking about when I said it was a bad idea. Accidents happen. No matter how careful and trained you are. Don't take chances. Everybody's life is ruined over this and will never be the same. I feel so bad for everyone.

Sometimes a large amount of training breeds complacency and you get sloppy. It comes down to using that lump above you shoulders for more than just a place to hang your hat.

Chuck M · February 14, 2012, 07:18 PM

I do not believe the system failed at all, but I do believe that this guy used very VERY poor judgement. Carrying concealed is not something to show off in public, it is part of your right to protect yourself should the negative situation present itself. That is what makes this anything but an accident.

C0untZer0 · February 14, 2012, 07:40 PM

dup thread

chadio · February 14, 2012, 09:27 PM

In addition to the 4 absolutes I always drill this important sequence when clearing:

remove the magazine (source of ammunition) first

check the chamber second

If you reverse these steps, you have not cleared the firearm

My 9 y.o. son recites " no magazine, nothing in the chamber" any time we handle firearms.

My heart goes out to the girl and her family.

checkmyswag · February 14, 2012, 11:26 PM

As much as purists hate it, this is the reason for mag disconnect safeties. It shocked me, in the military even, how many people didn't know when their weapon was loaded or not.

But, if the basic safety rules would have been followed, they wouldn't have discharged the weapon.

dmazur · February 15, 2012, 03:09 AM

Quote:

As much as purists hate it, this is the reason for mag disconnect safeties.

Yep. Dumb the machine down to the user's level, rather than expect the user to rise to the complexity of the machine.

I remember when cars had seat belt interlocks that prevented you from starting the car unless they were fastened.

Of course, the manufacturers had it all figured out, and provided a switch in the seat to detect when there was someone sitting in it.

It was high comedy watching someone fasten a seat belt around a bag of groceries so they could start their car.

I don't believe that cars are set up like this now. I believe you get a warning, but the car will still start with the seat belts unfastened.

The firearm equivalent would be a loaded chamber indicator.

February 14, 2012, 09:27 PM	#23
chadio Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2011 Posts: 931	In any firearm safety discussion or handling event: In addition to the 4 absolutes I always drill this important sequence when clearing: remove the magazine (source of ammunition) first check the chamber second If you reverse these steps, you have not cleared the firearm My 9 y.o. son recites " no magazine, nothing in the chamber" any time we handle firearms. My heart goes out to the girl and her family. __________________ Ex - Navy, Persian Gulf Veteran. Loved shooting the M14, 1911, M60, M2

February 13, 2012, 06:55 PM	#2
Technosavant Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2007 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 4,040	It was his own gun, and he didn't know there was one in the chamber? Not only is this horrible gun handling (violating three of the four rules), but horrible awareness. The "I didn't know there was one in the chamber" is just outright stupid, since that means he was planning on racking the slide upon drawing the gun (something not easy to do), and he would have been the one to chamber the round to begin with! Methinks he is trying to hide a brain fart by pretending to be stupid negligent, not criminally negligent. A tragic mistake caused by weapons-grade stupid.

February 13, 2012, 08:04 PM	#3
Carry_24/7 Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2011 Posts: 801	This could have happened anywhere; an irresponsible person handling a gun. I'll still carry in church.

February 13, 2012, 08:21 PM	#4
Chuck M Member Join Date: February 6, 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 34	...So should everyone carry, I don't think so. Don't get me wrong I love the fact that we live in a free country and have the rights that we do, however, some peoples kids just don't use the common sense they were born with. And the location really doesn't matter it's bad either way....PLAXICO!!! FAIL!

February 13, 2012, 09:39 PM	#5
rtpzwms Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2010 Location: OTS Posts: 1,035	I’ve had a lot of emotions running through me after reading the article. First my heart felt sorrow for someone injured by the stupid actions of another. I understand the desire to share our knowledge and our love of firearms in general. There is a time and a place for everything, church is not the place to share this type of information IMHO. Go to a range! My next feeling is that as a concealed carrier of a handgun you have a higher standard to hold, after all you are permitted to walk among us with your firearm. And as such I believe that you will through your actions, will help protect our rights to continue to carry concealed, failure of this will certainly get the general anti gunners working on removing this privilege/right. Lastly I stop my rant with my agreement with Chuck M not everyone should carry concealed. I don’t have a better way to make the list a perfect system but it is clear that the system used to issue this permit came up short.

February 13, 2012, 09:54 PM	#6
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	When I got my driver's license, the instructor told me it was up to me to be a safe driver. Defensive driving, etc. When I got my PADI card, the instructor told me it was up to me to be a safe diver. Plan the dive, then dive the plan, etc. When I got my CPL, I kind of figured out it was up to me to be safe in my use of a concealed weapon, even though there was no instruction provided by Washington State. I'm not sure any amount of training, or additional laws, are going to prevent negligent actions by stupid people. I'm a firm believer in harsh punishment for the negligent among us. Though it would appear to be cruel, it would have two benefits - 1. It would provide an example of what can happen if you are negligent 2. It removes the negligent from society, so they can't do additional harm I'm afraid that, if you want the truth, it isn't lack of laws that is the cause. It is that there are no real consequences for stupid acts.

February 13, 2012, 10:16 PM	#7
Fishing_Cabin Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2010 Posts: 720	Again, another tragedy to help us keep in mind the rules of gun safety. I feel for the injured girl and church family.... Though I know some here have mentioned that some people should not carry concealed...I will say that at times, we as a group of firearm owners, can be our own worst enemy, both by violating safety rules as in this tragic case, and secondly trying to limit others to firearms. Knowledge, and respect are powerful, and when either using a firearm on the range or in defense, or carrying a firearm, we must have both or obtain knowledge, and posses proper respect, or earn it. Horror stories such as this, may help give a person a second thought to be more respectful around firearms. Its the best one may hope for in a situation like this without going in to religion which isnt the place here.

February 13, 2012, 10:42 PM	#9
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	What I meant by "no consequences" is that, from what I've read, our criminal justice system hands out light sentences way, way too often. The jails are overcrowded, you know. I am somewhat of a cynic, but I doubt he'll do more than 5 years. IMO, that's not enough. Not for the effects of his negligence. It means he'll be back in 5 years for another try at responsibility.

February 13, 2012, 11:47 PM	#10
Ronbert Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2009 Location: Ft. Collins, CO. Posts: 398	The licensed armed security guards who I experienced at my range actually couldn't shoot their way out of a wet paper bag. They were shooting the floor and the lights - anywhere but the target - slow fire. I had to eject them and their Beavis "mistakes will happen huh huh huh" trainer on my first night as RO. So I'd regard those alleged quals as suspicious at best. Security companies are in the business of being low-bidders.

February 14, 2012, 12:54 AM	#15
Fishing_Cabin Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2010 Posts: 720	wayneinFL, I wasnt trying to single you out. I have read here, and on other forums peoples views today of the church and the officers shooting, and spoke to others as well. That may be tainting my views on this. I admit to that. I agree both should be charged and last I heard in the officers shooting the person was charged with attempted murder. Perhaps I should have been more clear citing the above. I could agree with an unvoluntary manslaughter charge if she died, but again I tend to agree with the attempted murder charge as well in the other case. Once we fire any shot by accident, on the range or in defense, we cant take it back. What happens happens. I guess as a Christian, and a person who struggles to treat others equally and ask for the same, its just wierd to me. As to the case of the officer shot, I read on another forum a poster felt it was the officers fault in many ways. I guess what I mentioned earlier, and I do not feel it can be repeated enough is that we are responsible for our own actions, rightly or wrongly, even if we didnt intend the outcome. I hold to my thought that at times we CAN be our own worst enemy. P.S. wayneinFL. Please accept my appology. I didnt mean to single you out, it was more of the confusion on ideas between the two cases, both here, other forums, and in real life opinions.

February 14, 2012, 10:50 AM	#17
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,332	Hiding in a church closet showing off your gun??? That has to be Webster's definition of "low moron".

February 14, 2012, 04:55 PM	#19
IrishBluEyes51 Member Join Date: January 27, 2012 Posts: 56	Accidents happen, you can't legislate anything to perfection. you can however create consequences that cleanse the system of those that refuse to show it the respect it demands therefore self legislating the chl laws. we do not need more restrictions.

February 14, 2012, 06:57 PM	#20
BUFF Senior Member Join Date: June 27, 2011 Location: Augusta, KS Posts: 226	There was a thread on here about carrying at the gym. This is the kind of thing I was talking about when I said it was a bad idea. Accidents happen. No matter how careful and trained you are. Don't take chances. Everybody's life is ruined over this and will never be the same. I feel so bad for everyone. Sometimes a large amount of training breeds complacency and you get sloppy. It comes down to using that lump above you shoulders for more than just a place to hang your hat.

February 14, 2012, 07:18 PM	#21
Chuck M Member Join Date: February 6, 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 34	I do not believe the system failed at all, but I do believe that this guy used very VERY poor judgement. Carrying concealed is not something to show off in public, it is part of your right to protect yourself should the negative situation present itself. That is what makes this anything but an accident.

February 14, 2012, 07:40 PM	#22
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	dup thread

February 14, 2012, 11:26 PM	#24
checkmyswag Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 1,328	As much as purists hate it, this is the reason for mag disconnect safeties. It shocked me, in the military even, how many people didn't know when their weapon was loaded or not. But, if the basic safety rules would have been followed, they wouldn't have discharged the weapon.