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Old May 27, 2011, 12:27 AM   #1
C0untZer0
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#1 Buck for HD

I think Randy Wakeman makes a good argument for #1 and/or #0 Buck for HD...

http://www.chuckhawks.com/home_defense_shotgun_ammo.htm

12 or 16 projectiles penetrating 12" to 14"

Quote:
The Firearms Tactical Institute reports:

"Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma. In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body."
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Old May 27, 2011, 12:35 AM   #2
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In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body."
If he is bleeding out front and rear than he will bleed out twice as quick, thus depriving the brain of the required oxygen quicker thus leaving my family free from the threat all the quicker.

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Old May 27, 2011, 12:46 AM   #3
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http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958
In the above link you will find photos of pretty much all routine shotgun loads fired into bal. gel. blocks...

What I see is that any of the buck shot produce good entrance wounds.

But once the shot load separates into individual pellet patterns, I want the larger pellets each pellet is larger so chance of hitting debilitating vitals is increased. since each pellet has more mass, I expect deeper penetration in the target if the target has on cold weather attire.

And the hydraulic wound channel has to be better with a larger diameter than with a smaller diameter of equal round ball shape.

The above stated... I use #3 buck in my 20 gauge M-500 since that is the gun I currently own, I can't locate larger buck locally and don't seem to find a way to justify additional guns at this point in my life.

It will hunt any game animal I can encounter in my region and is adequate for my hd concerns.
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Old May 27, 2011, 07:12 AM   #4
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I don't think you can go wrong with either 00, 0, 1 or 4 buck shot for HD. My patrol shotgun is loaded with Winchester Supreme 1 buck, because that was what issued by the department, however, it patterns very well from my shotgun. And that my friend is what you want.
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Old May 27, 2011, 07:21 AM   #5
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Another point favoring number 1 buck is the total payload delivered on target. I can't remember at the top of my head the exact numbers, but IIRC a standard 2-3/4 12 gauge holds about 32% more grains of lead if filled with 1 Vs. 00 buckshot.
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Old May 27, 2011, 07:57 AM   #6
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I don't know about self-defense, but No 1 buck is all I've ever used for deer hunting. Every deer I ever shot with Number 1 went down and stayed down. If they required a second shot it was a "kill shot" for an animal down, and breathing it's last.

My theory is exactly what's stated above. I'd rather have 21-24, .30 cal shot in the pattern than 12-15, .33 cal, 00's (2 3/4" to 3" Magnum). 000's numbers are even fewer. Dropping down to number 4, what you gain in numbers, you lose in mass.

I admit my "theory" isn't scientific. It's based on talking to the old timers I used to hunt with and on my own experiences. Number 1 buck is good stuff.

At self-defense ranges, I doubt it really matters.
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Old May 27, 2011, 08:24 AM   #7
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Because of the "numbers" #1 Buckshot seems to the best HD load and pictures speak a thousand words - work you way down to # 1 buckshot in this most execellent article by Robert Farago dated 2-27-2010 "Shotgun Penetration with Various Rounds"
http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/02...arious-rounds/
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Old May 27, 2011, 08:52 AM   #8
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1 buck seems to be where the lines cross on the graph for pellet size and quantity. I've yet to find a load,however, that patterns as tightly as my pet 00 rounds. If and when I find one, I may switch. Meanwhile, I'll continue with "Old" Estate 00 R/R.....
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Old May 27, 2011, 05:26 PM   #9
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#0 Buck is #1

#0 Buckshot for me. 12 pellets of .32 caliber ensuring high/multiple hit probability, devastating wound channels, control (with slightly less weight of payload than 00 and #1 Buckshot) and effectiveness at all the ranges within the standard working distance of a shotgun and regular chokes plus a little less overpenetration than 00. #1 is next in the hit parade... Overall.

IMO

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Last edited by Gehrhard; May 27, 2011 at 06:00 PM.
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Old May 27, 2011, 05:44 PM   #10
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I use #1 for everything, hunting & SD. It is the perfect comprimise of shot size and number of pellets. 0 is my second favorite.
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Old May 27, 2011, 06:33 PM   #11
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Just got done with a shotgun course with Tom Givens. Writing it up for Dave here but just a preview.

Tom says forget the lesser balls - go with 00 at a minimum.
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Old May 27, 2011, 06:44 PM   #12
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Cajun;
Most organized studies I've read also conclude recommending #1 Buckshot or 0 Buckshot.

And remember, defense doesn't necessarily mean just IN the "home" defense, but could be in or also around, out, and about. You'll have to be the judge...

Instead of up to 15 yards with #2 SwanShot in your connected Town House apartment could one need to defend oneself elsewhere, at twice that distance and, if so, would I prefer #1 Buckshot? Darn right. Could it be at 45 meters and would I want 0 Buckshot? Affirmative!

As I've seen demonstrated, beyond 0 Buckshot just means less hit/multiple-hit probability and overpenetration/less wound track. So, I concur such would not be as effective overall. 0 Buckshot isn't so available. #1 is a little more so.

Gehr

Last edited by Gehrhard; May 27, 2011 at 06:56 PM.
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Old May 27, 2011, 07:06 PM   #13
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I believe a lot of people feel #1 is about the optimum size for SD. The problem is that a lot of those same people really like Fereral's plated buckshot with Flight Control wads for exceptionally tight patterns, and Federal doesn't make #1 plated buckshot with Flight Control Wads. There's a lot of guys on the shotgunworld tactical forum who'll pee their pants the day those shells come out.
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Old May 27, 2011, 07:19 PM   #14
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I'm buying a box of diapers for when they make those in 0 Buck AND Ruger comes out with a 6-Shot .327 Federal Magnum LCR.
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Old May 28, 2011, 02:29 AM   #15
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I don't think I'd want Flight Control wads for HD.

I would like to cover a 3" to 4" area. I guess you only make one hole in someone with a Flight Control wad - but it's one devastating hole, but why send all the projectiles down the same wound channel?
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Old May 28, 2011, 03:13 AM   #16
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Peter Hathaway Capstick was writing about this back in the 70's for Guns & Ammo. I believe his book, Last Horizons is the one with great info regarding buckshot. #1 buck is the way to go.
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Old May 28, 2011, 08:32 AM   #17
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Quote:
I don't think I'd want Flight Control wads for HD.

I would like to cover a 3" to 4" area. I guess you only make one hole in someone with a Flight Control wad - but it's one devastating hole, but why send all the projectiles down the same wound channel?
My 590A1 patterns Federal 00 buck load with FliteControl wads at 1" - 1 1/2" at 10 yards. That load will end the disturbance immediately PLUS, and most important to me, is I want as much absolute predictability in the pattern as possible in my home with kids. I DO NOT want stray pellets flying around the house.

To each his own but these loads will always come through my SG for HD. #1 buck is a good load but 00 buck is the premier SD load.
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Old May 28, 2011, 08:43 AM   #18
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At the median distance I would be engaging an intruder, even the cheapest of promo load 7 1/2 out of my cylinder bore 18 inch barreled 500 is still a single entrance hole. No noticeable pattern developing. So I wouldn't tell the difference in the flite control or any other buck shot round at that range... The bonus I see to F/C type rounds, is that in my situation, I am 1,000 X more likely (proven by me never having to defend the dwelling in my 25 years as a head of household) to be sneaky snakin' out to the trash cage by the street to pop a 'yote or 3. And range is an issue as they tend to bust me before I bust them so a predictable pattern would be nice for the "Texas Heart Shot" they tend to present as they run away.

Brent
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Old May 28, 2011, 09:32 AM   #19
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Many years ago when I lived in an apartment, it was #3 shot. Now, living in the country with nobody in the house but wife and I, it's 00.
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Old May 28, 2011, 09:48 AM   #20
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"Just got done with a shotgun course with Tom Givens. Writing it up for Dave here but just a preview.

Tom says forget the lesser balls - go with 00 at a minimum. "

Does Tom say why?

Massad Ayoob says #1 buck

I wonder what E.F. Hutton Says?
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Old May 28, 2011, 01:32 PM   #21
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Back while the earth was still cooling and dinosaurs were nibbling on the tropical rain forests everywhere, I took my first hunter safety course. The instructor suggested that #1 buck was the way to go for deer, because of adequate pellet size and higher pellet count per shell.

I tried it. Never could get it to pattern worth a darn.

More than four decades later, I'm still looking for a shotgun/barrel that will pattern #1 buck worth a darn.

Meanwhile Federal LE127 00 does exactly what I want it to do pattern wise.

There's still a stack of #1 buck from a big-box outdoor store ammo clearance sale a few years back waiting in a .50 cal ammo can marked MISC BUCK, in case a shotgun that will pattern it well ever turns up. And I'm still checking every 12 ga. that comes in the door with it. Still no joy on getting any kind of decent pattern with #1 buck, though.

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Old May 28, 2011, 02:06 PM   #22
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Wakeman's write-up was why I started touting #1 buck, but it's so damn hard to find locally, you practically have to order it. So normally, I use 00, which Wakeman considers second best.
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Old May 28, 2011, 02:17 PM   #23
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I will only ever load up with either 00 or slug in my SD shotty.
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Old May 29, 2011, 07:26 PM   #24
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Quote:
From COUNTZERO:
In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body."

HOGDOGS:
"If he is bleeding out front and rear than he will bleed out twice as quick, thus depriving the brain of the required oxygen quicker thus leaving my family free from the threat all the quicker."

Brent
I disagree. Once a vital organ is hit (heart, lungs, liver, pancreas...) it is going to leak blood into the chest/abdominal cavity depriving the brain/heart of oxygenated blood just as fast regardless of entrance or exit holes to the body. If you poke a hole in a water balloon (vital organ) that is in a bucket full of water it is going to leak out (bleed) into the bucket of water (abdominal or thoracic cavity) just as fast as if you poke a hole in the water balloon and the bucket of water (skin- or entrance/exit hole/wound). It's a good thought, just not physiologically correct, which is why #1 buck still has the edge as far as wound channels go. 00 is way easier to find though
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Old May 29, 2011, 10:24 PM   #25
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Blakester, I am fairly convinced that the "thang" people have with 00 Buck is exactly that for quite some time it was pretty much the ONLY thing you'd find.

People generally seem to be in one of two camps regardless: sand-sized shot dove-loads are the same as a slug at the end of a hallway or 00 Buckshot is the smallest effective pellet and had better be backed up with alternating slugs in the magazine tube.

"Birdshot is for birds" cries one group. "Buckshot is for bucks" should yell the other. Sounds silly? But buckshot was for hunting BUCKS and Black Bear. Is 3-1/2" 000 Buckshot even better? Some of you are saying "ayup, sure 'tis" when of course it isn't. Regardless, that isn't what was on the shelves -- 2-3/4" 00 Buck was.

It was bigger than BB shot (which is what I bought to celebrate the Rodney King verdict -- probably got the last of it), and there was nothing much in between. Once in a while, ONCE in a while, you'd find 00 in boxes of 25, probably at a gun show. That was when we shopped for ammo in a brick and mortar store. When we could pick the stuff up off of a shelf. When it was almost always in stock and you weren't limited to how many boxes you bought. When a kid dropping out of high-school didn't ask you if it was for a pistol or a rifle. When you weren't asked for proof you were over 18.

Now the internet. More choice. More competition. And lots of access to data and distilled information by analytical folk that has to be ignored to keep to them thar old wives tales...

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