How many members manufacture bullets for sale? Do you have a Class 6 FFL?

[FrankenMauser]

The title of the thread says it all:
How many members manufacture bullets for sale? Do you have a Class 6 FFL?

I have decided to sell off some of my firearms and reloading supplies (dies and brass) to pay for bullet swaging equipment. It's something I have always wanted to do; and I'm to the point in my reloading hobby, that I need to add another "complication" to the process. Losing a few cartridges (and rifles) will allow me to get more "bang for my buck" out of the remaining rifles.

I have been considering selling bullets, on the side, as an added bonus of having the equipment. ...Which, of course, led me to researching the proposition. I was actually quite surprised, when I found that the definition in 18 USC 44 § 921(a)(17)(A) was as follows:

Originally Posted by 18 USC 44 § 921(a)(17)(A)

The term "ammunition"
means ammunition or cartridge cases,
primers, bullets, or propellant powder
designed for use in any firearm

This single definition requires bullet manufacturers (not just loaded ammunition manufacturers) to obtain a Class 6 FFL. Failing to obtain the FFL for bullet manufacturing has the same penalties as failing to obtain the FFL for manufacturing loaded ammunition.

Most of the "small time" bullet manufacturers I have done business with do not have an FFL (including my preferred source of 9mm bullets). Digging around the internet; I found dozens of people claiming "their interpretation" of 921a was different, and they did not need to obtain the Class 6 FFL. (Most other types of FFLs also allows the manufacture of ammunition. Many of these statements clarified that they held no FFL, whatsoever.) This made me wonder if the members on TFL would provide some input.


So...
Do you sell the bullets you swage or cast?
Did you obtain a Class 6 FFL?

Regardless of popular opinion, I'll be applying for the Class 6 FFL after I get some decent bullets coming off the press. At $10 a year, one 'production area' inspection a year (maybe more), and lots of CYA... it shouldn't be bad.


And... if any of you manufacture loaded ammunition, and exploit the loophole in the excise tax, feel free to comment.

Reloading of used shells or cartridges is considered manufacturing for
purposes of excise tax. Sale of such
shells by the reloader is subject to the
excise tax. However, if the reloader
merely reloads shells belonging to a
customer and is paid for labor and materials, the reloading service is not a taxable sale, as long as the reloader
returns the identical shells provided by
the customer to that same customer. In
such instances the customer is the
manufacturer and would not be liable for
tax if the shells are manufactured for
personal use. If the customer sells reloaded shells or uses them in a business, e.g., shooting range, the customer
would be liable for the tax.

(Emphasis mine)

[RWNielsen]

I think you'll find that all the members of this public forum conduct their activities in the strictest compliance to all applicable laws on both federal and local levels.

[PawPaw]

Originally Posted by RWNielsen

I think you'll find that all the members of this public forum conduct their activities in the strictest compliance to all applicable laws on both federal and local levels.

Absolutely! TFL members observe all federal, state, county and local ordinances. One thing that you might remember, is that if you sell stuff locally, you need a business license and are required to collect sales tax. Local laws are in addition to any federal law that might regulate your business.

I have been known to give away a few bullets, if a friend wanted to try out a particular design before he purchased the mold, but I wouldn't dream of selling bullets. But sell bullets? Heaven forbid.

[WESHOOT2]

One needs no license to sell bullets.

Federal law demands an FFL06 to sell ammunition, UNLESS the ammunition was reloaded into the customer's actual used fired cases.

I voted 'other', as I no longer have my FFL06 nor do I manufacture any ammo other than my own.
Kinda.
Mostly.
Yeah.

[snuffy]

Originally Posted by 18 USC 44 § 921(a)(17)(A)
The term "ammunition"
means ammunition or cartridge cases,
primers, bullets, or propellant powder
designed for use in any firearm

You definitely need a type 06 FFL to sell bullets. It means any PART of ammunition requires a 06 to sell.

A sure way to turn a hobby into a hated job is to start doing it for profit.

All I will do concerning boolits is occasionally offer to send some samples of my molds output to someone simply if they pay the postage. If they volunteer extra cash, that's their choice. Even that small demand is enough to convince me to never make it a business!

[FrankenMauser]

Originally Posted by WESHOOT2

you mean cartridge, right?

Nope. I meant bullets. I'm a stickler for proper terminology. I want to slap people, when they use the term "bullet" for cartridges and "tips" for bullets...

Originally Posted by WESHOOT2

Federal law demands an FFL06 to sell ammunition, ...

That's exactly the point of this post.
Check the first block of quoted text in my first post, again. ...As well as the quote in Snuffy's post. The definition of "ammunition" includes the bullet as a stand-alone component. A bullet is considered ammunition, under the definitions in 18 USC 44 § 921.

Originally Posted by PawPaw

One thing that you might remember, is that if you sell stuff locally, you need a business license and are required to collect sales tax.

The Class 6 FFL (like most other FFLs) is dependent upon a business license. If you don't have a business license at the time of application for the FFL, you can have up to 30 days after FFL issuance to obtain the business license (but must have both to operate). (Sales tax isn't an issue here. It's a very simple filing/payment process.)

[Shoney]

Snuffy

A local full line sporting goods outlet lost it's FFL for repeated violations of selling firearms. The primary people violating the laws were new employees selling to undocumented aliens. Despite several warnings, the violations continued and the Feds pulled their FFL.

The store continue to sell bullets, powder and primers and have had the Feds in frequently to review their store records for "possible purchases of firearms".

According to what you say, the store needs the FFL?

[snuffy]

According to what you say, the store needs the FFL?

Yes, a type 06 FFL. It's different from the FFL required to sell firearms. Perhaps they held onto their type 06 but lost the one needed to sell guns? I'm certainly not up on which FFL numbers are for what sales. The feds have lots of hoops to jump through when it comes to guns, ammo and manufacturing.

[Bamashooter]

I dont think its any of your business what I do with my cartridges frankenmauser.

[cornbush]

Bama-- I whole heartedly agree with you, but I personally know why the question is being asked and I assure you the intentions are honorable.

I'm seriously contemplating the same thing Frankenmauser is, although it would be different caliber stuff.

[Sevens]

Without trying to sidetrack this interesting thread too much (think of it as a friendly diversion), where is the demand for swaged lead bullets?

As I recall, the popular swaged bullets have been low velocity handgun slugs, .38 wadcutter and other target bullets.

For general use and for use in anything that moves at any decent velocity, is anyone using swaged lead bullets?

Specifically, what size/weight/type of swaged bullets are the subject of this thread?

[CrustyFN]

I could be wrong but I thought you only needed the FFL if you actually made the bullets. If you were re-selling bullets you bought then I didn't think you needed one.

[FrankenMauser]

According to what you say, the store needs the FFL?

My understanding is the same as CrystyFN's: They only need the FFL to sell anything under the definition of "ammunition" if they are manufacturing it. If they are simply a retail business (and not manufacturing the product), they don't need the Class 6 FFL.

Without trying to sidetrack this interesting thread too much (think of it as a friendly diversion), where is the demand for swaged lead bullets?

As I recall, the popular swaged bullets have been low velocity handgun slugs, .38 wadcutter and other target bullets.

For general use and for use in anything that moves at any decent velocity, is anyone using swaged lead bullets?

Specifically, what size/weight/type of swaged bullets are the subject of this thread?

One at a time:

I don't think the demand for swaged lead bullets is very high, at this point in time. Right now, the big ticket item is "hard cast". But that's not what I intend to do. (Answer #3.)

I'm using swaged lead bullets. Taking Unclenick's (?) advice in one of my previous threads, I gave the Hornady swaged SWCs and WCs a try in my .327 Federal (90 gr HBWC) and .44 Mag (240 gr SWC and 240 gr HP SWC). The .44s are running at about 950 fps, with only minor leading; but the expansion is fantastic (and the soft lead makes bore lead removal easy). -I don't remember, off the top of my head, what the HBWCs are running in the .327, but accuracy is good. Expansion is fantastic, when loading them as a hollow point. (awesome not-quite-explosive varmint/rabbit load)

Which brings us to the last topic: Size, weight, and type.
My interest is in swaged rifle bullets. I would be starting off with 6mm, loading my own varmint bullets with rimfire jackets and bonded hunting bullets with Corbin VB jackets. Anything I intended to sell would likely be made with copper jackets (drawn or commercial). Using rimfire hulls for jackets is a very labor-intensive process, that I don't think would be worth it for commercial sales. The 6mm varmint bullets are also limited in weight range, when swaged into a rimfire jacket, to ~50-58 grains - unless there is a substantial exposed lead tip. With a commercial or drawn jacket... anything is possible, from 20 grains (polymer cores) to 140 grains, from hollow point, to flat point, to protected point, to spitzer, to round nose.

--

Down the road, I would add more calibers. They would probably materialize in the following order: .224", .308", .430 (lead pistol), .277", .312" (rifle), and .313" (lead pistol). Anything beyond those would be 95% commercial endeavors, and would be far into the future, if ever (the 5% accounts for low volume shooting of firearms with 7mm, 8mm, .338", .358", .375", .458", and other bore sizes, within my family - it's not enough to justify purchasing the dies, unless I want the primary purpose to be commercial).

For just my own use, I can amortize the cost of each caliber's die set with about 10 years worth of use (as little as 2-3 years in some calibers, as much as 15 years in others). If any of my family got extra use out of the equipment, they would pay a small "wear and tear" fee, and offset the cost even more. Even if I never turn it into a business, I see the process as a long term investment, much like reloading in general.

The up-front costs are considerable, when you look at it on a per-caliber basis ($550-900 for basic dies, per caliber, per ogive shape). But, over time, it helps negate much of the cost of one of a reloader's most expensive, non-reusable components: the bullet.

And I'm finding myself buying more and more "premium" bullets... so those costs are adding up fast. Last year, I spent more money on bullets, than it would have cost me to get set up with two calibers of rifle bullet swaging dies, a proper swaging press, a lead pistol bullet swaging die, and 2-3 years worth of lead wire and bullet jackets (plus miscellaneous tools, lubes, and other necessities).

On paper, I estimate being able to swage my own 6mm bullets for less than 'half price', within 9 years (total amortization of the equipment). From then on, my cost would be essentially no more than the cost of copper and lead. At that point, amortization of subsequent die sets would be quicker, as well (no press or misc tools to pay off).

[Edward429451]

Are you going to make your own jackets or buy pre-fab jackets? Pre-fab jackets are expensive, and a jacket making dies just doubled your start up cost in one caliber. Something to think about.

[steveno]

I wonder if you need a license to just sell ammo? there are a few hardware stores and "stop & robs" that keep a few boxes of standard ammo around for hunters during the basic seasons and I doubt that they went to the trouble of having a license. these places don't sell guns.

[Berry's MfG]

A class 6 FFL is required for you to manufacture bullets for sale, but as far as needing an FFL to sell bullets there is no federal law that requires it. On a state-by-state basis that is where their is a difference. Currently we will not sell bullets to a consumer in MA, we require an FFL because of a lawsuit that occurred when a large mail order company was taken to court by their AG. California passed a similar law that required a face-to-face transaction from an FFL dealer to a consumer. Thankfully that law was thrown out at the 11th hour do to the poor wording that was very ambiguous.

[FrankenMauser]

Are you going to make your own jackets or buy pre-fab jackets? Pre-fab jackets are expensive, and a jacket making dies just doubled your start up cost in one caliber. Something to think about.

I've put a lot of thought into it, already.

Even when buying commercial jackets in small lots, the cost of the finished bullet is less than half of what I'm paying now. Generally: The larger or more unpopular the caliber, the more I save. (.30 caliber is one notable exception - it has its own economy, and more competition; so, the savings are not as good).

Jacket drawing dies would probably not be an initial purchase. I would be more likely to work with a couple different commercial jackets, first. That would give me the opportunity to decide which drawing dies I wanted to buy first - straight jackets (from copper tubing) or tapered jackets (from strip/sheet copper).

However, one set of drawing dies could be used for several smaller calibers of jackets. I would just need to add a die to draw the jackets down (~$200, rather than $700-1,200+).

I think I am making it appear as if most of my desire to do this is for cost savings. That's not really true. Most of my desire to swage my own rifle bullets, is for the same reason I reload: In the end, I feel like I am shooting a better product; and I get to shoot more for the same total cost. The long-term "savings" is just a bonus.

[Berry's MfG]

I think it sounds like fun, and I agree with you wanting to make your own. You probably already have this info, but these guys have been helping consumers swage bullets for a long time.

http://www.corbins.com/

[zippy13]

A local full line sporting goods outlet lost it's FFL for repeated violations of selling firearms. The primary people violating the laws were new employees selling to undocumented aliens. Despite several warnings, the violations continued and the Feds pulled their FFL.

I wonder, did anyone question if the new employees were undocumented aliens, also?

[CrustyFN]

A class 6 FFL is required for you to manufacture bullets for sale, but as far as needing an FFL to sell bullets there is no federal law that requires it. On a state-by-state basis that is where their is a difference. Currently we will not sell bullets to a consumer in MA, we require an FFL because of a lawsuit that occurred when a large mail order company was taken to court by their AG. California passed a similar law that required a face-to-face transaction from an FFL dealer to a consumer. Thankfully that law was thrown out at the 11th hour do to the poor wording that was very ambiguous.
__________________
Jay R. Phillips
Berry's MFG

Jay,

Thanks for the information.

[NWPilgrim]

Sounds like a great project! The more I reload the more I stare at those components and wonder if it is worth my time to get set up and do the work myself. Like you say, for the most common calibers and styles it may be less difference, but as soon as you get into the less common ones like .312", .250, etc. you can get access to a whole range of new weights and ullet styles. Good luck on your endeavor!

[FrankenMauser]

Thanks Jay.

I was hoping one of the TFL member bullet companies would chime in. I expected it to be Missouri or MasterCast, though.
It's always nice to see Berry's pop up.

And thanks for the link. I had pretty much decided to go with Corbin's equipment, already. There are only a few companies that are willing to deal with the average consumer. Corbin's is often viewed as one of the "worst", due to their unique dies and presses (and complete lack of interchangeability with most other brands), and steep pricing. ...But I think the end product and equipment longevity will be better. (And it seems almost every report I find for many other brands of swaging dies is talking about a die failure...)

[Berry's MfG]

Keep me posted on what you end up going with, It's something I have been wanting to get into at home as well. I like the idea of making my own .224" bullets from the spent rimfire casings, and will help get you off the grid so to speak.

[Berry's MfG]

One thing you'll want to do is source a reliable vendor for your lead so that you have consistency. Make sure it is the same exact alloy every time, this is the key to weights and OAL not changing every time you get a new batch in. That is why we are very strict on our supplier, or havoc breaks out in our swaging department when things are not to spec.