Marquis Hill, Irving Santana, Philadelphia

ncpatriot · September 24, 2010, 09:47 AM

I haven't seen this on the forum pages yet. Hope I'm not repeating.

I have had an ongoing debate with a gun control advocate on another forum. He brought up the case of Marquis Hill, in Philadelphia. Hill shot Irving Santana for vandalizing cars, his among them. Turns out Philly officials had revoked his gun permit in 05 for 2nd degree murder. He was acquitted of the charge, but didn't get his permit back. Seems he applied online to Florida and got a FL permit which he then used to carry in Philly again. He shot the vandal & it became big news about his FL permit, etc. I read an article in Fox/Philly the debater gave me & read a few others. I also looked up Marquis Hill on Pa Corrections website and saw that his true name was Brandon Jace Morris, a fact not mentioned in any of the articles. I suspect the local media there has omitted facts in order to fan the flames of gun control. I find no separate articles on Irving Santana either, though he was only 18 and info would not likely be public.

Do any of you live around Philly, and hear much about this case? I haven't found any new articles on it. The ones online were from about 9-16.

There has to be more to it than is being told. Thanks for any help. PM me or answer here, please.

TailGator · September 24, 2010, 10:54 AM

I agree that there is something missing in the story. A felony conviction makes one ineligible for a Florida CCW permit (unless the convicting authority restores civil rights, in which case Hill could have applied for a Pennsylvania permit). So that by itself requires some explaining. This may be just another instance of a criminal circumventing the existing law, which causes some people to call for more laws and others to call for the enforcement of existing law.

Sefner · September 24, 2010, 11:41 AM

I think the bigger point is that someone who is going to shoot another person for vandalizing a car is going to shoot a person for vandalizing a car regardless of if they have a permit or not. They have other issues. Sounds like he slipped through the cracks in the government permit process.

Dilbert · September 24, 2010, 01:01 PM

But he was not a felon. He was acquitted of the charges. Unless the info in the first post was incorrect.

Brian Pfleuger · September 24, 2010, 01:08 PM

My answer is simple: big deal.

It's one guy. You're going to deny a basic right to the masses because of one guy? Or 10 guys? Or 100 guys?

You're talking about 330,000,000 people. Any individual case is completely irrelevant to the discussion in whole.

Criminals are criminals. Some of them managed to get permits. Some of them manage to commit crimes without being caught and are even "respectable" members of society.

None of it means anything.

Don H · September 24, 2010, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peetzakilla

It's one guy. You're going to deny a basic right to the masses because of one guy? Or 10 guys? Or 100 guys?

The assassinations of John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy were a major impetus in the passage of GCA '68. Two people deeply affected the rights of tens of millions of gunowners for going on half a century.

Deerhunter · September 24, 2010, 02:49 PM

Interesting about the FL permit in PA. Why....I was talking to a guy I met recently who is a cop outside of Philly. He pulled a guy over that had a FL carry permit. The guy was a resident of PA and had a non-resident FL permit. Turns out that the guy was denied a permit by PA so he went and got his FL which is reciprocal. My friend didn't know at the time that this was legal. He didn't have a problem with it and ran the info, letting the guy go with the ticket for what ever he did. As he should have, since the guy was legal. One of the times that a LEO didn't know something but wasn't a jerk about what he didn't know and wanted to figure out. I told him what I know about permits and the reciprocal states to include the Utah.

Glenn Dee · September 24, 2010, 05:25 PM

One can NOT!!! Obtain a Fla CCW on line. Although one can obtain a Fla CCW as a non resident. One can NOT purchase a firearm in Fla. as a non resident. A handgun may only be legaly obtained within the state of residence.

I'd guess tha media (per usual) left out a few of the facts. But then the
regular media never lets a few facts get in the way of a good story.

Glenn Dee

**Aguila Blanca** · September 24, 2010, 10:20 PM

Explained here: http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=420144

Permits in PA are issued by the county sheriff ... except in Philadelphia, where they are issued by an office of the police department. And they don't issue to everyone who applies. However, PA law is written such that they recognize out-of-state, non-resident permits even if the bearer happens to live in PA. So a LOT of Philadelphia residents are forced to get Florida permits because they can't get one in their own hometown. It IS legal ... and it is shameful that they have to go through all that.

As to the comment about the guy being a felon ... he was (as noted a couple of posts later) acquitted. That means he had his day in court and he was found Not Guilty. No conviction. No felon. No legitimate reason to not give him back his permit. But ... he lives in Philadelphia.

ncpatriot · September 25, 2010, 02:30 AM

Thanks for the info so far. I suspect the press in that area is conveniently omitting facts, such as the assumed name. I found that out by checking PA Corrections website. Seems the reporters there could easily do that too. If someone had assumed name with good fake ID, I see how he could defeat a system.

The person I am debating constantly brings up anything he can to prove the average person should not carry a gun. I have repeatedly challenged him to check out info on repeat offenders & parole absconders; that he will probably find they do a great deal of the crime in his area, same as my city & many others too. He has yet to come up with a true case that isn't somehow full of holes. Several of us on that forum have defeated every argument he has made. Some of his arguments are so easy to shoot down that I almost feel guilty, but not quite. Most pro gun people have made good arguments & a few antis have at least stated their cases well. But this guy is another story. His favorite arguments are "what if this" or "what if that?". He tells a story as if a true event, with an armed person losing his temper & shooting someone. Then he says "but that didn't happen, as he didn't have a gun after all". Totally off the wall. 3 or 4 of us have told true stories of gunowners. He thinks they are "1 in a million".

Keep the info coming, especially anything local in Philly that may not make the news or the net in other places.

Standing Wolf · September 25, 2010, 04:41 AM

Quote:

The person I am debating constantly brings up anything he can to prove the average person should not carry a gun.

In my experience, it's more fun and rewarding to befriend intelligent, rational, moral people than those who advocate totalitarianism.

blume357 · September 25, 2010, 05:56 AM

from that igit's... logic... and I personally know the following as a fact because I drive all day for a living... the average person should not be allowed to operate a motor vehicle.....

keep in mind you (OP) may think you are making logical arguments with this person... but; when you start arguing with an idiot.... most folks that stop to watch the debate see two idiots arguing.

FreedomFighter1969 · September 26, 2010, 08:39 AM

I remember that case faintly. Once you have a CCP, you really can't do anything even if it meant that he beat the guy up for vandalizing his car, he still would get his permit revoked. In Philly a permit is pretty much a one shot deal. If you ever did get in an altercation, and even if you were in the right legally when you shot the scumbag, you lose your permit afterwords even after your cleared of all charges. Myself and every other Pennsylvania resident {Not just Philadelphia}, think this is an injustice. If you committed no crime your permit should be restored to you. This is just another example of what the NRA is for, to help the law abiding citizen keep his/her right in cases like this !

**Aguila Blanca** · September 26, 2010, 11:01 AM

Curiously enough, it is this Philadelphia quirk leading to Philadelphia residents having to obtain out-of-state permits in order to carry legally in their home city, and then getting hassled for that even though it is 100% legal that has brought the ACLU out on behalf of the gunnies!

Will wonders never cease?

Uncle Buck · September 26, 2010, 11:07 AM

Isn't it great that people who advocate gun control never let the facts get in the way of a good debate?

ncpatriot · September 26, 2010, 04:59 PM

Actually, we have some fun with the guy. He makes his arguments, usually silly as I say, then each of us takes a shot at him & totally discredits him. He gets frustrated & comes back with something equally crazy. We have a lot of fun with him. 3 or 4 of us are gun people & some supporters chime in every now & then. He's really an easy fight & quite amusing.

ncpatriot · September 28, 2010, 05:27 AM

Aguila, I'm amazed. 1st time I ever heard of ACLU defending 2A in any way.

ncpatriot · September 30, 2010, 03:33 PM

I've still been checking the online news sites for this & haven't found anything new. The gun control advocate is as amusing as ever. I told him this story had more questions than answers, pointing out the name question & that he was never convicted. He never responded to that, came back with a totally new argument. We've shot that bucket full of holes too. Poor guy, we need to help him find a source of cheap buckets. We've bankrupted him with all his new buckets we've shot up.

Michael95 · October 4, 2010, 03:00 PM

NCPatriot: Marqus Hill's real name is not Brandon Jace Morris. Please note, the correct spelling of Marqus Hill is just as I spelled it. There is no I in his first name. His birth date is 1/14/82. This does not match your Brandon Morris or Marquis Hill as showing on the PA Prison Locator. Marqus Hill was not in prison prior to this Sept arrest. He would not be listed yet on the prison locator website until convicted. These are 2 separate people. You can locate all his documents on the Pennsylvania Unified Judicial System website. There you can search anyone as long as you know their name and the county they were charged in. You won't see some of his previous arrests because they were expunged as noted in another article I found on google. I don't usually post on this forum but didn't want Brandon Morris to be labeled as a murderer. I didn't read all his dockets but he's listed as dui and theft, possession of a firearm as a minor, etc. Note, Irving Santana had a record too that had to do with drugs. Happy hunting for addl info.

ncpatriot · October 17, 2010, 09:48 PM

Thanks Michael. I was using the name as I saw it from the online articles. I will start again on it. I appreciate your catching the spelling error. I don't think any article spelled it right, not the ones I saw. But put the name in PA Corrections as Marquis and see how it comes back with the alias listed. More later.

September 24, 2010, 09:47 AM	#1
ncpatriot Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2009 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 371	Marquis Hill, Irving Santana, Philadelphia I haven't seen this on the forum pages yet. Hope I'm not repeating. I have had an ongoing debate with a gun control advocate on another forum. He brought up the case of Marquis Hill, in Philadelphia. Hill shot Irving Santana for vandalizing cars, his among them. Turns out Philly officials had revoked his gun permit in 05 for 2nd degree murder. He was acquitted of the charge, but didn't get his permit back. Seems he applied online to Florida and got a FL permit which he then used to carry in Philly again. He shot the vandal & it became big news about his FL permit, etc. I read an article in Fox/Philly the debater gave me & read a few others. I also looked up Marquis Hill on Pa Corrections website and saw that his true name was Brandon Jace Morris, a fact not mentioned in any of the articles. I suspect the local media there has omitted facts in order to fan the flames of gun control. I find no separate articles on Irving Santana either, though he was only 18 and info would not likely be public. Do any of you live around Philly, and hear much about this case? I haven't found any new articles on it. The ones online were from about 9-16. There has to be more to it than is being told. Thanks for any help. PM me or answer here, please.

September 24, 2010, 11:41 AM	#3
Sefner Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 769	I think the bigger point is that someone who is going to shoot another person for vandalizing a car is going to shoot a person for vandalizing a car regardless of if they have a permit or not. They have other issues. Sounds like he slipped through the cracks in the government permit process. Last edited by Sefner; September 24, 2010 at 01:08 PM. Reason: removal of probably false information =D

September 24, 2010, 01:08 PM	#5
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,694	My answer is simple: big deal. It's one guy. You're going to deny a basic right to the masses because of one guy? Or 10 guys? Or 100 guys? You're talking about 330,000,000 people. Any individual case is completely irrelevant to the discussion in whole. Criminals are criminals. Some of them managed to get permits. Some of them manage to commit crimes without being caught and are even "respectable" members of society. None of it means anything. __________________ https://ecommercearms.com I am the owner/operator! Ask me for custom prices! No sales tax outside CO!

September 24, 2010, 02:49 PM	#7
Deerhunter Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 607	Interesting about the FL permit in PA. Why....I was talking to a guy I met recently who is a cop outside of Philly. He pulled a guy over that had a FL carry permit. The guy was a resident of PA and had a non-resident FL permit. Turns out that the guy was denied a permit by PA so he went and got his FL which is reciprocal. My friend didn't know at the time that this was legal. He didn't have a problem with it and ran the info, letting the guy go with the ticket for what ever he did. As he should have, since the guy was legal. One of the times that a LEO didn't know something but wasn't a jerk about what he didn't know and wanted to figure out. I told him what I know about permits and the reciprocal states to include the Utah. __________________ My idea of fast food is a mallard. -Ted Nugent

September 25, 2010, 02:30 AM	#10
ncpatriot Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2009 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 371	Thanks for the info so far. I suspect the press in that area is conveniently omitting facts, such as the assumed name. I found that out by checking PA Corrections website. Seems the reporters there could easily do that too. If someone had assumed name with good fake ID, I see how he could defeat a system. The person I am debating constantly brings up anything he can to prove the average person should not carry a gun. I have repeatedly challenged him to check out info on repeat offenders & parole absconders; that he will probably find they do a great deal of the crime in his area, same as my city & many others too. He has yet to come up with a true case that isn't somehow full of holes. Several of us on that forum have defeated every argument he has made. Some of his arguments are so easy to shoot down that I almost feel guilty, but not quite. Most pro gun people have made good arguments & a few antis have at least stated their cases well. But this guy is another story. His favorite arguments are "what if this" or "what if that?". He tells a story as if a true event, with an armed person losing his temper & shooting someone. Then he says "but that didn't happen, as he didn't have a gun after all". Totally off the wall. 3 or 4 of us have told true stories of gunowners. He thinks they are "1 in a million". Keep the info coming, especially anything local in Philly that may not make the news or the net in other places. Last edited by ncpatriot; September 25, 2010 at 02:38 AM.

September 24, 2010, 10:54 AM	#2
TailGator Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,809	I agree that there is something missing in the story. A felony conviction makes one ineligible for a Florida CCW permit (unless the convicting authority restores civil rights, in which case Hill could have applied for a Pennsylvania permit). So that by itself requires some explaining. This may be just another instance of a criminal circumventing the existing law, which causes some people to call for more laws and others to call for the enforcement of existing law.

September 24, 2010, 01:01 PM	#4
Dilbert Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2006 Location: DMAFB, AZ Posts: 342	But he was not a felon. He was acquitted of the charges. Unless the info in the first post was incorrect.

September 24, 2010, 05:25 PM	#8
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,559	One can NOT!!! Obtain a Fla CCW on line. Although one can obtain a Fla CCW as a non resident. One can NOT purchase a firearm in Fla. as a non resident. A handgun may only be legaly obtained within the state of residence. I'd guess tha media (per usual) left out a few of the facts. But then the regular media never lets a few facts get in the way of a good story. Glenn Dee

September 24, 2010, 10:20 PM	#9
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 19,040	Explained here: http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=420144 Permits in PA are issued by the county sheriff ... except in Philadelphia, where they are issued by an office of the police department. And they don't issue to everyone who applies. However, PA law is written such that they recognize out-of-state, non-resident permits even if the bearer happens to live in PA. So a LOT of Philadelphia residents are forced to get Florida permits because they can't get one in their own hometown. It IS legal ... and it is shameful that they have to go through all that. As to the comment about the guy being a felon ... he was (as noted a couple of posts later) acquitted. That means he had his day in court and he was found Not Guilty. No conviction. No felon. No legitimate reason to not give him back his permit. But ... he lives in Philadelphia.

September 25, 2010, 05:56 AM	#12
blume357 Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2005 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 3,943	I agree.... from that igit's... logic... and I personally know the following as a fact because I drive all day for a living... the average person should not be allowed to operate a motor vehicle..... keep in mind you (OP) may think you are making logical arguments with this person... but; when you start arguing with an idiot.... most folks that stop to watch the debate see two idiots arguing.

September 26, 2010, 08:39 AM	#13
FreedomFighter1969 Junior member Join Date: September 21, 2010 Location: Philadelphia, Pa. {City of the First Class} What a Crock !! Posts: 25	I remember that case faintly. Once you have a CCP, you really can't do anything even if it meant that he beat the guy up for vandalizing his car, he still would get his permit revoked. In Philly a permit is pretty much a one shot deal. If you ever did get in an altercation, and even if you were in the right legally when you shot the scumbag, you lose your permit afterwords even after your cleared of all charges. Myself and every other Pennsylvania resident {Not just Philadelphia}, think this is an injustice. If you committed no crime your permit should be restored to you. This is just another example of what the NRA is for, to help the law abiding citizen keep his/her right in cases like this !

September 26, 2010, 11:01 AM	#14
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 19,040	Curiously enough, it is this Philadelphia quirk leading to Philadelphia residents having to obtain out-of-state permits in order to carry legally in their home city, and then getting hassled for that even though it is 100% legal that has brought the ACLU out on behalf of the gunnies! Will wonders never cease? Last edited by Aguila Blanca; September 26, 2010 at 06:33 PM. Reason: typo

September 26, 2010, 11:07 AM	#15
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	Isn't it great that people who advocate gun control never let the facts get in the way of a good debate?

September 26, 2010, 04:59 PM	#16
ncpatriot Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2009 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 371	Actually, we have some fun with the guy. He makes his arguments, usually silly as I say, then each of us takes a shot at him & totally discredits him. He gets frustrated & comes back with something equally crazy. We have a lot of fun with him. 3 or 4 of us are gun people & some supporters chime in every now & then. He's really an easy fight & quite amusing.

September 28, 2010, 05:27 AM	#17
ncpatriot Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2009 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 371	Aguila, I'm amazed. 1st time I ever heard of ACLU defending 2A in any way.

September 30, 2010, 03:33 PM	#18
ncpatriot Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2009 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 371	I've still been checking the online news sites for this & haven't found anything new. The gun control advocate is as amusing as ever. I told him this story had more questions than answers, pointing out the name question & that he was never convicted. He never responded to that, came back with a totally new argument. We've shot that bucket full of holes too. Poor guy, we need to help him find a source of cheap buckets. We've bankrupted him with all his new buckets we've shot up.

October 4, 2010, 03:00 PM	#19
Michael95 Junior Member Join Date: October 4, 2010 Posts: 1	Marqus Hill, Irving Santana NCPatriot: Marqus Hill's real name is not Brandon Jace Morris. Please note, the correct spelling of Marqus Hill is just as I spelled it. There is no I in his first name. His birth date is 1/14/82. This does not match your Brandon Morris or Marquis Hill as showing on the PA Prison Locator. Marqus Hill was not in prison prior to this Sept arrest. He would not be listed yet on the prison locator website until convicted. These are 2 separate people. You can locate all his documents on the Pennsylvania Unified Judicial System website. There you can search anyone as long as you know their name and the county they were charged in. You won't see some of his previous arrests because they were expunged as noted in another article I found on google. I don't usually post on this forum but didn't want Brandon Morris to be labeled as a murderer. I didn't read all his dockets but he's listed as dui and theft, possession of a firearm as a minor, etc. Note, Irving Santana had a record too that had to do with drugs. Happy hunting for addl info.

October 17, 2010, 09:48 PM	#20
ncpatriot Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2009 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 371	Thanks Michael. I was using the name as I saw it from the online articles. I will start again on it. I appreciate your catching the spelling error. I don't think any article spelled it right, not the ones I saw. But put the name in PA Corrections as Marquis and see how it comes back with the alias listed. More later.