What the heck kind of pistol is this?

[raftman]

So, a local fella is selling this pistol, presenting it as specimen of one of the pistols that competed (and evidently lost) against the Tokarev TT-30/33 in the 1930 trials to replace the Nagant revolver as the standard issue pistol for the Red Army. He didn't know what the pistol is designated, other than it bears a slight resemblance to another experimental pistol from that era on display at the Tula arms museum. It's clearly not the same gun however. It is apparently chambered in 7.63 Mauser, and said to have been brought back during WWII.

The grip certainly has a broomhandle look to it, and it's of course known the Russians did love the broomhandle Mauser pistol and so it's plausible that they'd borrow that design element in addition to chambering it for the 7.63 round.

But there's also evidence against it being a Russian pistol at all. The markings contain lots of Latin characters not present in the Russian (Cyrillic) alphabet, for example S, R, N, or I ("I" was taken out of Russian usage in 1918, and the others were never used in Russian to begin with). On top of that, none of the letters that the pistol is marked with are exclusively Russian/Cyrillic. So basically, there's letters that are common between the Latin-based alphabet and Russian, and there are characters NOT present in the Russian alphabet, and no characters exclusive to the Russian alphabet. Seems strange, it would be like the Japanese designing a prototype and marking in French. Or was a foreign designer/manufacturer participating in the trials? How likely was that in those days?

Pics:







If anyone has any insights, I'm all ears.

[jonnyc]

It's Chinese, probably mid-1930s. They did that alot with 7.63 and 7.65 pistols and ammunition.

[SDC]

It could even be a Cao Dai handmade pistol from Vietnam; these were made one at a time by carving chunks out of railroad rails with a file, and were usually stamped with nonsensical gibberish to make them appear like they were produced in the West (because the end market wouldn't be able to read them anyway). Most of these that I've seen were 32 blowbacks, though; have you seen how this one breaks down? It looks like it might work the same way that a Czech CZ-38 does.

[jonnyc]

I don't believe the Cao Dai went to the extent of the "Russian" gobble-de-gook present on this pistol. I have only ever seen work that extensive on 1930s Chinese pistols and some that come out of Peshawar, Pakistan.

[SigP6Carry]

The writing looks vaguely cyrilic, but not quite... almost... middle eastern, but not quite... It's definitely not Chinese or Japanese characters... or Vietnemese, Thai or the likes... more than likely a more Western language.... but it's not sanscrit or farsi.... Turkish, maybe?

[raftman]

The guy said he had a number of Russians and Bulgarians take a look at the pistol and none of them could any sense of the text. He assumed that it must therefore be some kind of code, but like I said, I suspect it may mean the gun isn't actually Russian. It DOES seem like gibberish in that it doesn't seem to form anything remotely pronounceable in any language that I am even vaguely familiar with. If it's a code, I don't know that any code in this context needs that many characters, it seems like it would be more complex than it needs to be, if it were a code.

Does anyone recognize that symbol that appears to be an arsenal mark?

What would have been the point of using pseudo-foreign text on a pistol? Would it create the impression of superior quality if it's a foreign-made weapon?

[Bill DeShivs]

I don't know where it's from, but it's handmade-from Mauser broomhandle parts. And it's a single shot, so the story is BS..

[raftman]

Now that you mention it, the hammer also looks like the Mauser variety. But it doesn't appear to be a single shot:





Didn't post these pics earlier since they don't show any markings/text.

[jonnyc]

To repeat:

"It's Chinese, probably mid-1930s. They did that alot with 7.63 and 7.65 pistols and ammunition."

[raftman]

Any idea on the value? Or the point of the gibberish markings?

[chibiker]

I can't offer a shred of information on what it might be or where it came from.
Just want to say though I think that looks cool as hell. Like all the species that led to modern man it looks like it's some kind of predecessor of a modern day Beretta, well to me anyway

[johnwilliamson062]

a pistol with Chinglish... I think I need one.

The Chinese still throw English nonsense on all kinds of products to make them look good.
Much like I see people walking around with Chinese character shirts/tattoos and no idea what they say.

[Avenger]

Not a clue what it is, but the grips and the hammer sure look like Mauser bits to me!

[James K]

I love the way they shaped the magazine floorplate to match the grip. A really neat touch. I don't know what it is or who made it, but the markings, while hand stamped, appear to be consistent, not just random characters such as are often seen on Darra guns.

Further, the cylindrical receiver looks a lot like it houses a rotating barrel locking system, like the Obregon or the Czech Model 22/24. It seems likely that some Mauser C96 features were incorporated, but I see nothing to indicate the gun works like the Mauser. The grips only look like the Mauser, they are much larger and made to fit that pistol. Likewise, the hammer; in spite of its appearance, it seems very unlikely that the hammer works like the C96 hammer.

It appears to be an original design, not a copy of anything I know of.

Russian? I think not, but I would surely like to know where it was made.

Jim

[m.p.driver]

It looks like something that could have been made in the Khyber Pass.Not only have i seen direct knockoffs of everything including British Enfields,AK47's,Broom Handled Mausers,Lugers etc.That were so close that if if werent for markings you would swear it was original.But also examples that are a polyglot of several designs.

[jesus5150]

It's a Desert 19-nambu-11, made during the great gum drop famine of 1918... Most likely originated in kreblakestan or treglotia.


PS, that writing on the side is an ancient elven dialect, it says, "use only genuine 19-nambu-11 parts"


Ha ha i'm sorry. That thing is crazy looking. I'll let the thread be continued by the mature ones.

[jonnyc]

OK, let's put this to bed. I sent this thread to a good friend who happens to have one of the largest (if not the largest) collections of Chinese pistols in the US, Gen. Lew Curtis, USAF Ret.
Here's his reply:

"Jon,
This is a hoot!!! There are a number of these pistols in the Beijing Army
Museum where they are referred to as a Kuomintang pistol. Of course the
Koumintang abbreviated KMT, translated as the Chinese Nationalist Party was
founded by Sun Yat-sen shortly after the Chinese Revolution threw out the
Manchu dynasty . Later led by Chiang Kai-shek. I have 6 or 10 of these
pistols dating back to 1925. They seem to originate from the Canton area
which makes sense since this was the KMT stronghold during the Warlord
period.
This pistol was probably made in the 1930s as you indicated. This is a
fairly common Varity of Chinese pistol from the period. All the ones I have
encountered are in 7.63 Mauser, although I have seen one that came out of
Vietnam that had been rechambered for 9x19mm with a mag that had been
modified for the shorter cartridge. It is not handmade but probably a
product of the Canton arsenal. The only thing that makes me wonder is that
the communist Chinese made a lot of copies if Chinese pistol designs. The
Nationalist Chinese Star on the side is very interesting. I have only seen
it on pistols made by the communists, with the exception of the .45 Brooms
that were made by a Warlord shortly after Chiang Kai-shek took over and who
was trying to show his loyality. The star shows up on Communist pistols made
in the 1938-1940 period (don't have my notes with me) when the Nationalists
and Communists combined into the Anti-Japanese Front. Mao had his soldiers
take the red stars off their caps and put on Nationalists Star badges. The
front only last 6 months to a year and ended when a Nationalist army
ambushed a communist Route Army. I can often spot Communist made weapons by
their method of assembly and I have seen the drawing of another KMT pistol made
by the Communists (perhaps it was actually this one). Lots of GIs who went to China
brought these back.
The theory of it's connection to the experimental Russian pistol (don't have
the name with me) is interesting. There are some similar aspects, but I
suspect that the Russian got these from the Chinese since the Russians had a
lot of advisors with the KMT in the 1920s, particularly the early 20s and no
doubt quite a few pistols of this design came home to Russia.
Interesting pistol. Would like to have it in my collection. I generally pay
$200-$450 for these pistols based on condition and unusual features. I have
gone higher for one that is really interesting.
Feel free to post this information and you can use my name.
Cheers,
Lew"

I hope this puts an end to the speculation.

[grumpa72]

Well, it is unique looking but, imo, isn't going to win any beauty contests.

[Jbar4Ranch]

Those symbols look exactly like the symbols on some lightweight scrap metal I picked up in the desert near Roswell, NM back in '47.

[Hardcase]

Originally Posted by Jbar4Ranch

Those symbols look exactly like the symbols on some lightweight scrap metal I picked up in the desert near Roswell, NM back in '47.

Is that a black helicopter I see over there?

[Chris_B]

I feel that Chinese Communists would NOT put the Chinese Nationalist Sun on their pistols. It makes no sense. They were ideological enemies

[Avenger]

But Mao was a SNEAKY guy...he would send his soldiers out to ambush Japanese patrols in Nationalist gear. Any bodies they left behind all pointed at the Nationalists...and the Japanese would go after THEM.

[Chris_B]

...so they intended the pistol to be captured? Seems like an awful lot of effort

[Lou14733]

Chris B, Neverless it is true. In fact the Communist Army was part of the Nationalist Army-at least on paper. Check Wikipedia which says:

Second Sino-Japanese War against the Imperial Japanese Army, and in the Chinese Civil War against the People's Liberation Army. During the Second Sino-Japanese War, the armed forces of the Communist Party of China were nominally incorporated into the National Revolutionary Army (while retaining separate commands)

and

from 1937 to 1945, the Communist military forces were nominally integrated into the National Revolutionary Army of the Republic of China forming the Eighth Route Army and the New Fourth Army units. During this time, these two military groups primarily used guerrilla warfare, but also fought several conventional battles with the Japanese and the Kuomintang.

It was in 1937 I think, or 1938 that Mao had his troops change cap badges. It was the New Fourth Army that was ambushed I think.

Mao even wrote a book titled: "Tactics in the anti-Japanese United Front"

The gibberish on the pistol is common on Chinese pistols of the period, intended to make the pistols look like they are made in the West. Most of their copies of the FN1900 pistol have both FN and Belgian markings. Some have good copies of the markings on Belgian pistols, or portions of the markings. Others have gibberish like the pistol in this thread. Talking to Chinese who have some experience, including one whose father taught at the KMT military academy and was the Chinese Chief or Ordnance near the end of WW2 and they tell an interesting story. When the Chinese got kicked out of Korea and had other defeats by the west in the late 1800s they decided that they needed a modern army with modern equipment. They sent lots of promising students to Japan, the US, Germany, UK and other places in Europe. These guys were still considered lower class when they came home and not much was really done with moderniztion so I'm told, many stayed overseas until 1911 when the Manchus were overthrown, and more came back after the KMT defeated the warlords in the mid 1920s. Many of these guys had been in the west for 20 years or so. They could speak western languages and were known as the "college boys" in the Chinese ordnance system. On the otherhand, the guys who were marking guns who had never been to the west knew as much about western languages as I do about Chinese. When they marked a pistol, it came out like the one above.

I have seen Chinese made Mausers with almost perfect German markings, and everthing inbetween to the gibberish above.

Cheers, interesting thread!!!

Lew

[Bornunderpunches]

My Grandad recently gave me one of these to try to see if I could make heads or tails of it. It's in much worse shape than the one the OP had. Th only identifying marks on it was "1939" on the slide.