Browning Saltwood questions

Winchester_73 · January 15, 2010, 05:25 PM

I have a chance to acquire a FN Browning T bolt. From what I understand most of these were made with salt wood which rusted the metal. The guy selling it, is not giving it away because he claims that its almost perfect AND it has walnut on it. Naturally, I err on the side of caution when I buy used guns so I have some questions for the more knowledgeable people, or people who have the older FN Brownings from this era:

1) I read that removing a screw and or the action is a definitive way to tell if its salt wood. Salt wood = rust, walnut = good metal. Is this true?

2) I also read that Browning offered the original buyers a replacement walnut stock, but would they reuse the same screws? I ask because, that would mean that the screw could be rusty and the stock be NON salt wood because the screws could be from a saltwood stock. Just curious.

3) If it is saltwood, is there a way to remove the salt without damaging the wood? From what I understand, its pretty permanent but I thought I would ask anyways.

4) If its saltwood, its probably not worth the purchase? He's asking $500 firm, which I think is fair the stock is walnut.

Thanks in advance for the assistance. At first I thought it would be a great gun to own but now I am concerned that its saltwood. I guess I will know its saltwood if the guy refuses to let me take the action out. I can post a pic later. The wood is blonde in color and the stock is checkered.

Scorch · January 15, 2010, 05:52 PM

Great questions, Winchesester73.

Short answer: ALL so-called "salt wood" stocks are Claro walnut (California black walnut). They all came from the same batch of wood sold to Browning in 1965 and used in Superposed shotguns, Browning Hi Power Rifles (Safari and Medallion grade) and T-Bolts sold from 1967 until 1971.

The easy way to spot "salt wood" is by identifying if the wood is Claro (it has a very distinctive grain) and, if so, inspecting the metal anywhere the metal and wood touch, as the metal was quickly attacked by the salt retained in some of the wood blanks (not all). The definitive test is to remove the finish under the buttplate or in the barrel channel and swab a small area with silver nitrate solution: if it changes color, salt is present.

There is no way to remove the salt from the wood without ruining the wood. Browning offered to replace the stocks and refinish the firearm for the original owners only and required proof of original purchase, but I do not know if this offer is still valid.

So, not all T-Bolts have "salt wood" stocks, and if it was manufactured after 1971 it is highly unlikely that it has a "salt wood" stock (the remaining "salt wood" blanks were destroyed in 1972).

Some reading on salt wood:
http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTec.../8-Dec-02.html
http://www.outdoorsdirectory.com/akf...ting/55952.htm

Some info to help you determine what year the T-Bolt was manufactured:
http://www.proofhouse.com/browning/58_dating_sys.htm

Winchester_73 · January 16, 2010, 11:56 AM

Thanks for the help. Here is a picture of the gun in question. I didn't quite understand when you said you can tell by the wood grains. This is the only pic I have:

Scorch · January 16, 2010, 02:24 PM

From the picture, it is hard to tell what kind of wood it has on it. It does have a lot of contrast in the grain like Claro walnut does, but it is hard to see it well enough to say for sure. I guess I would first check out the manufacture date, then, if it fits within the years where they had problems, take the wood out of the stock and check it out. If it hasn't had problems with rust in 40 years, it probably will never have an issue with rust.

dahermit · January 16, 2010, 06:38 PM

I have a Browning T-2 (checkered, the T-1's were not checkered), that has a salt-wood stock. It does not look like your stock; mine is very dark with an open grain that has been filled with a filler that is almost black. The finish looks like shinny plastic. This original stock did not come with sling swivels attached (yours looks like it has a front swivel). It also came with an aperture receiver sight, a plastic single shot adapter, a plastic magazine cover for use when using it as a single shot. It would be my guess that your stock is a replacement or for, or was not salt-wood to begin with.
My T-2, despite being salt-wood, is very accurate (slightly under an inch at 100 yards) with Remington target ammo (that comes in a green and blue box).

Rembrandt · January 16, 2010, 07:00 PM

Salt wood resulted from a process used on Browning's to speed up the curing time of wood...the salt would draw out the moisture and speed up the drying process, unfortunately the salt residue remained in the wood grain and caused metal corrosion where the metal and wood made contact. This was not a Browning problem, but a supplier problem.

About 1965, a large wood supplier sent wood not only to Browning for FN's use but also to Bishop, Fajen, Winchester, Ruger and to the US Military for M-14 stocks. This company was drying their walnut using granulated salt, by covering the wood with salt and placing it in quonset huts.

The wood dried so quickly that the workers said they could actually see a steady drip of moisture coming from the wood. The wood was already cut into the appropriate size planks and no one thought that any salt residue would remain on or in the wood after final shaping, sanding, and finshing.The US Government stopped using walnut for the M-14 rifles and went to other types of wood because properly cured wood was so scarce at the time.

In Browning's case, the problem first showed up starting in 1966 and ends on their guns about 1973. Superposes and T-Bolts made between 1967-1973 should be looked at; Safari, Medallion or Olympian made between 1967-1976; and any A5's 2,000,000 edition Commemorative's should be looked at.

Inspect any place the metal touches the wood. Take out the butt plate screws and look them over carefully. If you find no rust, the gun is probably OK. Sometimes you can test the wood with silver nitrate. Place a drop or two on a hidden spot on the wood, if it bubbles you have a problem

(From "Browning Sporting Arms of Distinction" by Matt Eastman)

Browning procrastinated in signing the wood contract in Europe because there was a price spike. They thought it was a ploy and put off the purchase knowing there was plenty of cheap California wood available if needed. By the time the European wood deal fell through the California wood was gone.

The only figured wood available was planks bought in California but sent to South America for furniture. Browning was trapped and had to take it. This is where the salt curing was being done but Browning missed it being a problem.

They then tried to sell some of these to TRW for M-14 stocks but Claro walnut failed the physical test and was never used. Bishop, Fajen, the Warsaw Missouri pact, bought some and sold it in semi-inlets.

Browning nearly went broke from the fiasco. A serious tax problem about the same time almost put them under and as a result they lost the FN connection and were forced to Japan and Portugal for guns and parts. That's why round knob, long-tang, (RKLT) Browning's are more desirable. If a Browning has French walnut stocks it can not be salt wood. All Claro, especially the higher grades, is suspect.

Willie Lowman · January 16, 2010, 07:20 PM

Does anyone have a SN range on the guns with these stocks?

blackwinch · April 3, 2010, 09:23 PM

I just saw a TBolt with a salt wood stock locally...
Plain as day yellowing in the butt and rust pitting on all metal surfaces touching the stock...
The dealer wanted me to make an offer he couldn't refuse I told him I'd have a hard time giving him $100... He thinks he has a gem but, is ignorant to the saltwood affair... He thinks owning a gun shop is selling new Sigs and Kimbers and appraising gun values purely by the blue book. Too bad he doesn't take the time to know a little about the history of firearms manufacture.

TXGunNut · April 4, 2010, 10:16 AM

Interesting thread. Not a collector of any of these guns so this is the first I've heard of it. Shows how dependent manufacturers are on suppliers, changed the course of history of a company just by getting in a bit of a hurry.

Dead-Nuts-Zero · April 27, 2010, 03:18 AM

I just started shoping for a Brownong and came upon the Salt Wood so did a search here for more info.
I thought I knew Browning back in them days but either forgot or never heard of salt wood.

I think I am safe with an A-5?

Anyone have any photo's?

Are they in anyway valued as colector items being a bucket of rust?

thanks for the thread.

mapsjanhere · April 27, 2010, 08:29 AM

One correction, the product of the reaction of silver nitrate and chloride is white, not black or bubbly.

Scorch · April 27, 2010, 11:55 AM

Quote:

thought I knew Browning back in them days but either forgot or never heard of salt wood.

Salt wood was used to stock T-Bolts, Safari grade rifles, and Superposed shotguns. It was a real issue for several years.

Quote:

I think I am safe with an A-5?

A-5s were not affected AFAIK.

Here's an excellent site about saltwood
http://www.josephbrazier.com/news/18/salt-wood-problem/

PetahW · April 27, 2010, 06:49 PM

[Does anyone have a SN range on the guns with these stocks?]

1) Browning's "Saltwood" issue was limited to certain models only, well-publicized & limited to defined years omly.

2) Every Browning firearm has a date code associated with it's SN, that's readily available either online or in BBGV.

3) Add (1) + (2) and compare the result to any applicable Browning firearms you may own - keeping in mind 40 years have past, and rust never sleeps.

.

January 15, 2010, 05:25 PM	#1
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	Browning Saltwood questions I have a chance to acquire a FN Browning T bolt. From what I understand most of these were made with salt wood which rusted the metal. The guy selling it, is not giving it away because he claims that its almost perfect AND it has walnut on it. Naturally, I err on the side of caution when I buy used guns so I have some questions for the more knowledgeable people, or people who have the older FN Brownings from this era: 1) I read that removing a screw and or the action is a definitive way to tell if its salt wood. Salt wood = rust, walnut = good metal. Is this true? 2) I also read that Browning offered the original buyers a replacement walnut stock, but would they reuse the same screws? I ask because, that would mean that the screw could be rusty and the stock be NON salt wood because the screws could be from a saltwood stock. Just curious. 3) If it is saltwood, is there a way to remove the salt without damaging the wood? From what I understand, its pretty permanent but I thought I would ask anyways. 4) If its saltwood, its probably not worth the purchase? He's asking $500 firm, which I think is fair the stock is walnut. Thanks in advance for the assistance. At first I thought it would be a great gun to own but now I am concerned that its saltwood. I guess I will know its saltwood if the guy refuses to let me take the action out. I can post a pic later. The wood is blonde in color and the stock is checkered.

January 15, 2010, 05:52 PM	#2
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,249	Great questions, Winchesester73. Short answer: ALL so-called "salt wood" stocks are Claro walnut (California black walnut). They all came from the same batch of wood sold to Browning in 1965 and used in Superposed shotguns, Browning Hi Power Rifles (Safari and Medallion grade) and T-Bolts sold from 1967 until 1971. The easy way to spot "salt wood" is by identifying if the wood is Claro (it has a very distinctive grain) and, if so, inspecting the metal anywhere the metal and wood touch, as the metal was quickly attacked by the salt retained in some of the wood blanks (not all). The definitive test is to remove the finish under the buttplate or in the barrel channel and swab a small area with silver nitrate solution: if it changes color, salt is present. There is no way to remove the salt from the wood without ruining the wood. Browning offered to replace the stocks and refinish the firearm for the original owners only and required proof of original purchase, but I do not know if this offer is still valid. So, not all T-Bolts have "salt wood" stocks, and if it was manufactured after 1971 it is highly unlikely that it has a "salt wood" stock (the remaining "salt wood" blanks were destroyed in 1972). Some reading on salt wood: http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTec.../8-Dec-02.html http://www.outdoorsdirectory.com/akf...ting/55952.htm Some info to help you determine what year the T-Bolt was manufactured: http://www.proofhouse.com/browning/58_dating_sys.htm __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services Last edited by Scorch; January 15, 2010 at 05:59 PM.

January 16, 2010, 02:24 PM	#4
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,249	From the picture, it is hard to tell what kind of wood it has on it. It does have a lot of contrast in the grain like Claro walnut does, but it is hard to see it well enough to say for sure. I guess I would first check out the manufacture date, then, if it fits within the years where they had problems, take the wood out of the stock and check it out. If it hasn't had problems with rust in 40 years, it probably will never have an issue with rust. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

January 16, 2010, 06:38 PM	#5
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	Salt Wood I have a Browning T-2 (checkered, the T-1's were not checkered), that has a salt-wood stock. It does not look like your stock; mine is very dark with an open grain that has been filled with a filler that is almost black. The finish looks like shinny plastic. This original stock did not come with sling swivels attached (yours looks like it has a front swivel). It also came with an aperture receiver sight, a plastic single shot adapter, a plastic magazine cover for use when using it as a single shot. It would be my guess that your stock is a replacement or for, or was not salt-wood to begin with. My T-2, despite being salt-wood, is very accurate (slightly under an inch at 100 yards) with Remington target ammo (that comes in a green and blue box).

April 27, 2010, 03:18 AM	#10
Dead-Nuts-Zero Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2004 Posts: 584	I just started shoping for a Brownong and came upon the Salt Wood so did a search here for more info. I thought I knew Browning back in them days but either forgot or never heard of salt wood. I think I am safe with an A-5? Anyone have any photo's? Are they in anyway valued as colector items being a bucket of rust? thanks for the thread. __________________ . . BANG------------ >>> !

January 16, 2010, 11:56 AM	#3
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	Thanks for the help. Here is a picture of the gun in question. I didn't quite understand when you said you can tell by the wood grains. This is the only pic I have:

January 16, 2010, 07:00 PM	#6
Rembrandt Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2002 Posts: 2,108	Salt wood resulted from a process used on Browning's to speed up the curing time of wood...the salt would draw out the moisture and speed up the drying process, unfortunately the salt residue remained in the wood grain and caused metal corrosion where the metal and wood made contact. This was not a Browning problem, but a supplier problem. About 1965, a large wood supplier sent wood not only to Browning for FN's use but also to Bishop, Fajen, Winchester, Ruger and to the US Military for M-14 stocks. This company was drying their walnut using granulated salt, by covering the wood with salt and placing it in quonset huts. The wood dried so quickly that the workers said they could actually see a steady drip of moisture coming from the wood. The wood was already cut into the appropriate size planks and no one thought that any salt residue would remain on or in the wood after final shaping, sanding, and finshing.The US Government stopped using walnut for the M-14 rifles and went to other types of wood because properly cured wood was so scarce at the time. In Browning's case, the problem first showed up starting in 1966 and ends on their guns about 1973. Superposes and T-Bolts made between 1967-1973 should be looked at; Safari, Medallion or Olympian made between 1967-1976; and any A5's 2,000,000 edition Commemorative's should be looked at. Inspect any place the metal touches the wood. Take out the butt plate screws and look them over carefully. If you find no rust, the gun is probably OK. Sometimes you can test the wood with silver nitrate. Place a drop or two on a hidden spot on the wood, if it bubbles you have a problem (From "Browning Sporting Arms of Distinction" by Matt Eastman) Browning procrastinated in signing the wood contract in Europe because there was a price spike. They thought it was a ploy and put off the purchase knowing there was plenty of cheap California wood available if needed. By the time the European wood deal fell through the California wood was gone. The only figured wood available was planks bought in California but sent to South America for furniture. Browning was trapped and had to take it. This is where the salt curing was being done but Browning missed it being a problem. They then tried to sell some of these to TRW for M-14 stocks but Claro walnut failed the physical test and was never used. Bishop, Fajen, the Warsaw Missouri pact, bought some and sold it in semi-inlets. Browning nearly went broke from the fiasco. A serious tax problem about the same time almost put them under and as a result they lost the FN connection and were forced to Japan and Portugal for guns and parts. That's why round knob, long-tang, (RKLT) Browning's are more desirable. If a Browning has French walnut stocks it can not be salt wood. All Claro, especially the higher grades, is suspect.

January 16, 2010, 07:20 PM	#7
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	Does anyone have a SN range on the guns with these stocks?

April 3, 2010, 09:23 PM	#8
blackwinch Junior Member Join Date: April 8, 2006 Location: CT Posts: 10	I just saw a TBolt with a salt wood stock locally... Plain as day yellowing in the butt and rust pitting on all metal surfaces touching the stock... The dealer wanted me to make an offer he couldn't refuse I told him I'd have a hard time giving him $100... He thinks he has a gem but, is ignorant to the saltwood affair... He thinks owning a gun shop is selling new Sigs and Kimbers and appraising gun values purely by the blue book. Too bad he doesn't take the time to know a little about the history of firearms manufacture.

April 4, 2010, 10:16 AM	#9
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	Interesting thread. Not a collector of any of these guns so this is the first I've heard of it. Shows how dependent manufacturers are on suppliers, changed the course of history of a company just by getting in a bit of a hurry.

April 27, 2010, 08:29 AM	#11
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	One correction, the product of the reaction of silver nitrate and chloride is white, not black or bubbly. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

April 27, 2010, 06:49 PM	#13
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	[Does anyone have a SN range on the guns with these stocks?] 1) Browning's "Saltwood" issue was limited to certain models only, well-publicized & limited to defined years omly. 2) Every Browning firearm has a date code associated with it's SN, that's readily available either online or in BBGV. 3) Add (1) + (2) and compare the result to any applicable Browning firearms you may own - keeping in mind 40 years have past, and rust never sleeps. .