Optimum 1000M Cartridge? (lengthy post – beware)

silent_warrior · December 6, 2009, 01:41 AM

I’m looking to add another rifle to my collection (if you can call three rifles a collection). Specifically, I’m looking for a medium range (≤1000M) target rifle, since I already have a short range (≤500M) target rifle/light carry hunting rifle: Remington 700 chambered in .243 Winchester, 24” sporter barrel, laminate thumbhole stock, 4-16x42 scope. Maybe not the best choice, but it fits the bill for now.

Instead of just jumping on the .308 bandwagon, I’d like to know if this really is the best medium range ‘sniper’ caliber, or if the military chose it for other reasons, like cost. I’m looking for facts and opinions. Hopefully you guys can help me out. I want to find the best cartridge for meeting the following criteria:

• Muzzle velocity of over 2500FPS
• Available with a ballistic coefficient of .450 or greater
• Supersonic past 1000M
• Maintains at least 500ft/lbs of energy at 1000M
• Maintains 1500ft/lbs of energy through 400M
• Can be chambered in a rifle weighing 10-12lbs, fitted with a scope and bipod
• Currently chambered in a high quality tactical rifle for less than $2,000; OR
• Can be chambered in a custom precision rifle for less than $2,000.
• Can CONSISTENTLY achieve 1MOA or better at 1000M (accuracy/consistency is most important)

I’ve been considering the following cartridges:
• .308 Winchester (7.62x51mm)
• .30-06 Springfield (7.62x63mm)
• .300 Winchester Mag.
• .300 Remington Ultra Mag.
• 7mm Remington Mag.

The .308 seems to be a little underpowered for a 1000M role in my opinion, and I don’t think it’s really capable of firing the 200gr. and heavier .30 cal bullets at reasonable velocities. Am I wrong?

The .30-06 has more energy than the .308, and I’ve been told it’s perfectly capable of 1000M shots; however, I still question its ability to fire the 200gr. and heavier bullets with optimal BCs at reasonable velocities. I don't want to be lobbing bullets. I also wonder if the .30-06 is superior to the .308, why did the military switch?

The .300 Win. Mag. really seems to fit the bill nicely as a 1000M+ caliber. My only worry is reloading – I’ve been told the case becomes quite thin and can only be reloaded a couple times before it must be discarded. Is the .300 Win. Mag. different from other cartridges in that regard?

While the .300 Remington Ultra Mag. packs the biggest punch of these five, I’ve never really heard of it being used as a target or sniper caliber. Is there any reason for this? It seems to me that a .300 Remington Ultra Mag. loaded with a 240gr. Sierra Matchking BTHP bullet would be a very impressive round.

I’m sort of leaning toward the 7mm Remington Mag. at the moment, because it outperforms both the .308 and .30-06, and comes very close to the .300 Win. Mag., while offering some very impressive BCs with 175gr. bullets. Does the 7mm Rem. Mag. suffer the same reloading issues as the .300 Win. Mag.?

Of course, I’m always open to suggestions. Is there another caliber that fits the criteria even better than any of the five I’ve been considering? (Please don’t suggest the .338 Lapua Mag., .408 Chey Tec, .416 Barrett, or .50 BMG… I’m looking for a 1000M caliber, not a 1600M+ caliber. I don’t want a 30lb rifle.)

g_avery · December 6, 2009, 02:43 AM

I dont know much, I'm just getting into long range shooting, but the guys I talk to either shoot .223 or .308. For a target rifle, they arent too concerned about punch at 1000 yards. I believe for .308 they are shooting 155 grain bullets and for .223 they are using 80 grains. For a hunting rifle however, I have no idea.

kraigwy · December 6, 2009, 02:45 AM

Dont tell service rifle shooters the 308 isnt any good for 1000 yards.

I've shot some damn good scores with M14s & M1As at a 1000 yards, use the 175 grn SMK at 2550 it works. I've kind of backed off the 308 and gone to the AR in 223 at 1000 yards, It works.

The 300 WM is an excellant 1000 yard gun in heavy wind, but you shoot 40-80 rounds a day in a series of matches, the recoil is gonna get to you, I dont care how tough you think you are. Mine is quite heavy yet it still gets me.

The '03 is a good medium between the 308 and 300 WM. I build a Vietnam Era Sniper rifle on a Winchester action, '06 of course. You can use heavier bullets (190s are good, but mostly I stick to the 175 SMK) I use it for the Any rifle any sight & any rifle iron sight stage. I save the 300 wm for heavy wind.

I think the three would fit the bill. With the others (except the 7 RM a d it to a point) you are re-inventing the wheel. Lots of data and factory match ammo available.

There are many others out there that would work fine. I listed the three, because they, with the 223, are the military 1000 yard guns and thats where my experience lies.

Regardless of what you choose, its not the gun or ammo at 1000 yards, its the shooter and his ability to read wind, mirage, and other conditions.

silent_warrior · December 6, 2009, 03:13 AM

Thank you for the replies so far. Don't read into it too much though. I'm not looking to get into heavy competition. Actually, its more of a hobby project for me - finding the best of the best combination - so I really don't mind if I end up reinventing the wheel.

What I'm trying to build, is a 1000M sniper rifle. I'd like to try a couple shooting matches after some practice, but I'm doing it more for kicks than competition. I'm picky about everything I own serving a legitimate purpose. If all the rifle can do is punch paper at 1000M, it's no good to me. If I can also take it out hunting, and use it to pick of zombies when they come to take over the world, then that works for me. My justification for spending the money, if you will. (and yes, zombies was sarcasm, but there's nothing wrong with owning a usable sniper rifle.) Since it's more or less a project sniper rifle, that's why I'm not considering the .223. I have one of those, but it's an M4.

jman841 · December 6, 2009, 03:23 AM

The .308 has certainly proved itself in the military settings, however i think the .300 win mag is an excellent 1000 meter round and would be the best round to suit your purpose. Any of the rounds you stated would work, especially if you are reloading.

sc928porsche · December 6, 2009, 03:33 AM

The 30-378wby is about tops for 30 cal. Keep in mind that for it to start to perform it should be in a 28" bbl. A 30" would be even better. Matched up with the 250gr. it is awesome. In standard barrel lengths (24-26) it isnt any better than the 300rum. Its not untill you get into the longer barrels does it start to come into its own.

mesabi · December 6, 2009, 04:09 AM

.30-06 is 7.62x63 Have you considered 6.5mm or 6mm calibers?

I would google Practical Long Range Shooting. You can also look at www.6mmbr.com or www.snipercentral.com.

Bart B. · December 6, 2009, 09:25 AM

It doesn't matter to me what your egos are, but you're comments on the .308 Win. and other long range shooting facts are somewhat off center as far as reality is concerned.

The .308 kicked the pants off the .30-06 as far as accuracy is concerned back in the early 1960's when it was first used in competition. The .308 proved about twice as accurate as the .30-06 with equal quality barrels, bullets, cases, reloading tools and techniques as well as shooters. Folks using the .308 Win. with 200 up to 250 grain bullets shot more accurate at 1000 yards than the .30-06 or any 30 caliber magnum. The reason is not muzzle velocity. It's how more uniform their muzzle velocity is and their mild recoil lets them be shot more accurate. Heavier recoil rifles of the same weight move more while the bullet's going down the barrel and they're harder to hold still during this time. And their muzzle velocity spread tends to get bigger.

If your worried about humans doing harm to you and yours, your first objective should be to hit them at long range with the first shot. Which means you have to have the skills and knowledge to range the target, judge wind conditions, make corrections for your load under horrible conditions, then shoot well enough to not miss your point of aim by more than 5 inches at maximum range. Fewer than 1% of all the high power rifle long range competitors can do this; even on their favorite range where they know their zero for it, hold an aiming area of 3/4ths MOA laying on their belly on the 1000-yard line aiming a rifle loaded with ammo that'll shoot all day long inside 3/4ths MOA, then try to get their shot off well inside their holding area. Which means if the first bullet they shoot strikes within 5 to 7 inches of where they call the shot, they throw a mental party. Less than 1/4th of that top 1% of all the competitors do that half the time. Go to a 1000-yard high power rifle match then watch the master-classified (highest ranked) shooters do their stuff. Note how far each one's first shot goes from dead center on the target. Most of the time they miss dead center by at least 10 inches; in all directions.

So one needs a cartridge that'll do this. This is in addition to one needing the ammo acquiring skills (reloading?) and rifle to do this. One should not use a cartridge any bigger than necessary. One cartridge does fill this bill; the 6.5x.284. It's been popular for folks laying on their belly winning matches and setting records along the way for a decade or more. The folks using it used to shoot 30 caliber magnums to do as well, but when top quality 26 caliber bullets could be had, they changed to a round with equal accuracy, better wind bucking ability, much easier to shoot accurately and had a longer barrel life.

Personally, I don't think any off-the-shelf rifle is capable of doing this. All the ones that do this consistantly are custom built. It's the same in auto sports; nobody goes to a car dealer to buy something that'll do what the best in NASCAR, Indy 500 or Formula 1 races do.

You'll be better off using a Winchester Model 70 action over the Remington to have a rifle built that'll do what I think your objectives are. Especially if you really want a 30 caliber magnum. Winnie's have a better safety, more reliable rapid fire operation with their longer and better designed bolt handle, more reliable extractor, almost a 3 times stiffer receiver, easier way to replace firing pin springs (got to be replaced every two years if best long-term accuracy is desired) and their flat surfaces better keep the receiver well bedded in the epoxy around them in the stock when bullets heavier than 160 grains are shot faster than 2800 fps.

All this can be done if one uses and does all the right stuff.

Jim Watson · December 6, 2009, 10:56 AM

As Bart says, the 6.5x284 is a leading choice among 1000 yard shooters shooting events where caliber is not restricted.

A friend went to the F-class Nationals at Ft Butner and said there were some shooters who had gone to 7mm because of the high BC of a 175-178 grain .284" VLD or SMK. Not in 7mm R.M., though. He saw 7mm WSM and a wildcat 7mm-.270WSM made up for some obscure refinement of case capacity suiting the powders available. Only a few dinosaurs shooting .30 magnums, though.

Where caliber is restricted, the usual standard is .308. It will send a 155 or 175 grain bullet of high BC to 1000 yards supersonic with good accuracy. Not a 168, though. The old Sierra International design runs out of steam before it gets there at non-magnum velocity.

Looking at your wants and budget, my recommendation is "none of the above" from your caliber list, get a Savage F-Class rifle in 6.5x284.
http://www.savagearms.com/12f_class.htm

You can probably beat the list price of $1341 which is good because a scope adequate for 1000 yards (or meters, but there are few French Measure ranges in the USA) is going to cost approaching the price of the rifle.
I have a Leupold 8.5-25X on my F/T-R .308 and am just consumed with envy when I look through my friend's Nightforce. But then he felt the same way when he got to shoot a rifle with a March scope.

I trust you are a proficient handloader.
Factory match ammunition is darned expensive.

mesabi · December 6, 2009, 01:39 PM

I read the 6XC has won the last 3 across the course national championships and a NRA long range national. Tubb along with that cartridge got a perfect score with it as well. Tubb tsk spec tak lr looks like an interesting rifle, available in 3 different calibers.

PH/CIB · December 6, 2009, 09:12 PM

Gun Reports Home >> News

From left are Brad Sauve, Paul Phillips, Jeff Rorer, and Derek Rodgers.Team Sinclair Breaks Records With F-Class Nationals Wins
November 30, 2009

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CAMP BUTNER, N.C. -- At the recent F-Class Nationals, Team Sinclair won both the 600- and 1000-yard events, breaking national records at both distances.

Brad Sauve, Jeff Rorer, Derek Rodgers, and Paul Phillips make up the Sinclair teamin the F-T/R (tactical rifle) class, which totaled 784-40X at 600 yards and 774-20X at 1000 yards.

Three of the four team members shot .308 rifles off of Sinclair F-Class Bipods. The F-Class Bipod adjusts from 5.5" to 10.25" with separate, no-notch, sliding height legs and a locking tilt feature.

"These gentlemen really know how to shoot and it gives us a great deal of satisfaction that our bipods were a part of their success," said Sinclair's President Bill Gravatt.

mapsjanhere · December 6, 2009, 09:27 PM

I have a .300 RUM on order for long range shooting. I was split between the .300 WM and the RUM, but the non-belted cartridge of the RUM won for reloading purposes. A calm day on my range has 15 mph winds, and I preferred the magnum over the 308. On the other hand, it will be a 15 lbs rifle to keep the recoil in check; not something to drag into the mountains for hunting.

rickdavis81 · December 6, 2009, 09:43 PM

I pick .338 Edge

Jimro · December 6, 2009, 10:24 PM

Optimum at 1k for what?

If you are punching paper, then you don't need to worry so much about terminal ballistics.

If you are going after animals, well then you do have to worry about terminal ballistics.

And don't worry too much about the 308 vs. 30-06 stuff. Yes the 308 broke the 30-06's records, but the 223 is also breaking the 308's records. Does that mean the 223 is infinitely superior to the 308? That is a whole 'nother ball of wax.

The true historical reason for going to the 7.62x51 was that it is easier for machine guns to shoot the shorter cartridge, and it got rid of the 10mm powder gap in the M2 30-06 load.

That being said I am a big fan of the 30-06 loaded with 175, 180, or 190 gr SMK's (or other match bullet in that range like the 178 AMAX). When you handload for a modern bolt action rifle you can get velocities that really push up into the 300 Win Mag territory. This comes in handy when you are worried about terminal ballistics.

If you aren't, then there are a whole bunch of 6.5's that are dang near custom made for long range shooting. The 6.5x47 Lapua is a great one for long range performance with low recoil, as is the 260 Rem. Zak Smith wrote an article comparing them with the 6.5 Creedmore which someone will reference here soon enough.

Jimro

sdj · December 6, 2009, 11:07 PM

Recently in the market for a 600 yard (and beyond) rifle / caliber, I posted the following:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=378057

In the end, I went with a .308 because I do not reload. I was looking for a paper puncher, so I had no requirements for terminal ballistics that hunters require. .223 ran a very close second, and that will likely be the next purchase.

Lots of good stuff here, too:

http://demigodllc.com/

Enjoy.

silent_warrior · December 7, 2009, 02:49 AM

Ok, I'll bite on the 6.5mm/.264" calibers. You've all presented some strong arguments. However, in the case of the 6.5x284 Norma, according to my research it has an incredibly short barrel life... which is an issue for me. I'm just starting out with the whole precision shooting thing so I'm going to need a lot of practice, and re-barreling sounds expensive. My current experience lies mostly in punching paper from 50-200M with a .22WMR. Obviously I need a proper rifle to shoot farther, so I'm starting the search for the proper caliber first.

Another question about 6.5mm/.264 calibers, why do they outperform 7mm/.284 calibers? From what I've researched so far, the .284 175gr match bullets have a higher BC than any .264 match bullet I've found (though some come very close). It makes me wonder why the 6.5x284 Norma comes so much more recommended than the 7mm Remington Mag?

So as far as the .308 is concerned, the reason for its famed accuracy is in it's consistency, I get that, but WHY is it so consistent? Lower muzzle velocities? Some magic feature about the shape of the case? The .30 cal bullet? I've previously heard all three as reasons, but have not heard a convincing argument yet. If its anything to do with the case, then shouldn't the .243WIN, .260REM, and 7mm-08 all be just as consistent? And if its the muzzle velocity, couldn't you just use a heavier (and thus higher BC) .30 cal bullet in a magnum cartridge (and download, if necessary) to replicate velocity?

And my final questions this time around, 1) can a .308 be loaded hotter to give it more energy and so it's not, to quote SniperCentral, "dropping like a rock" past 800M, and would that affect its famed consistency at all, if possible? 2) What is the heaviest bullet a .308 can fire without becoming any more poochy (slow) or losing accuracy?

Thanks for all the replies so far.

Bart B. · December 7, 2009, 08:09 AM

Silent Warrior asks some good questions. Here's answers.

Quote:

Another question about 6.5mm/.264 calibers, why do they outperform 7mm/.284 calibers?

3 reasons. One is their lighter recoil makes 'em easier to shoot more accurately in shoulder-fired rifles. Another, their bullets of the same weight as 7mm ones have higher BC's. And finally, for bullets having the same BC as one in 7mm, shorter jackets can be used; shorter jackets for a given caliber have a more uniform jacket thickness hence are better balanced and give better accuracy.

Quote:

So as far as the .308 is concerned, the reason for its famed accuracy is in it's consistency, I get that, but WHY is it so consistent? Lower muzzle velocities? Some magic feature about the shape of the case? The .30 cal bullet?

For consistant (small spread) muzzle velocities, short and fat powder columns are better than long and skinny ones. Popular benchrest cartridges are that way for the same reasons. Contrary to what one post said about the 30.06 having a 10mm powder gap, both the .308 and .30-06 are typically loaded to 95% or more load density; no way is there a 10mm powder gap in the '06.

And the leade angle for the 7.62 NATO round is 1.5 degrees while the .30-06's is 2.5 degrees. Shallower angles deform bullets less as the enter the rifling. A .30-06 with a 1.5 degree leade will shoot almost as accurate as the .308.

Quote:

If its anything to do with the case, then shouldn't the .243WIN, .260REM, and 7mm-08 all be just as consistent?

No, because bore diameter plays a part, too. It effects barrel life which is a compromise one needs to consider. The most accurate cartridges for a given caliber have typically burned powder charges for 50,000 CUP (58,000 PSI) whose weight in grains is the same number as the number of square millimeters the bore has. This is "exact bore capacity." When one starts burning more powder than bore capacity dictates, it gets harder to control muzzle velocity and make them shoot accurate.

And barrel life tends to be about 3000 rounds for cartridges burning powder at bore capacity that'll shoot 1/4th MOA or less at 100 yards, 3/4ths MOA at 1000. 22 caliber ones favored by benchrest folks burn about 21 grains, 24 caliber ones burn 28 grains. For 26 caliber, it's 33 grains and 38 for 28 caliber. The 30 caliber does this at 45 grains; typical max charge for the .308. This is why Sierra Bullets started using the .308 around 1959 to test all their 30 caliber bullets. When one uses more powder than bore capacity, barrel life gets shorter; the inverse square law applies. Double the charge weight and barrel life drops by 75%. Example: .308 gets 3000 rounds of best accuracy, .300 Weatherby Mag. gets about 800 with 90 or so grains of powder. (Based on what two folks I know got shooting the .300 Wby. in long range matches. I've got about 1100 rounds from each of three .30-.338 Win. Mag. barrels using 66 grains in long range matches.). When folks started using the .243 Win. in matches, they got about 1500 rounds of accurate barrel life. Reducing loads tends to increase muzzle veloctiy spread which is why competitors typically don't use them at the longer ranges.

Quote:

1) can a .308 be loaded hotter to give it more energy and so it's not, to quote SniperCentral, "dropping like a rock" past 800M, and would that affect its famed consistency at all, if possible?

Sure, any cartridge can be loaded so hot brass extrudes into recesses in the bolt face, cases rupture and leak gas into the shooter's eyes, and barrel life reduced to 1/8th of normal for the round and end up with muzzle velocity spreads so big you'ld have to get targets on paper twice the normal size so all shots fired could be seen. But I wouldn't advise it for safety and accuracy's sake.

Quote:

2) What is the heaviest bullet a .308 can fire without becoming any more poochy (slow) or losing accuracy?

250-grain Sierra Match Kings have been shot out at 2150 fps from 1:8 twist barrels and bucked wind better than 200's leaving at 2450 fps. Won matches, too.

Best accuracy comparison between the .30-06 and .308 was when Lake City Arsenal's test of 7.62 NATO match ammo took place. They typically shot 100 or more shots per test group. Using test barrels of equal, match grade quality, the 7.62 (.308 in civilian-speak) shot about 25% better at 600 yards than the .30-06; about 8 inches compared to a bit over 10 for the '06. When the new round was allowed in high power competition and better powder (IMR4064 instead of IMR4895 the arsenal used) was used, the best .30-06's shot about 6 inches but the .308's were about 3 inches with some getting down to 2 inches at less. No .30-06 had ever shot that well. This is why the NRA had to reduce target scoring ring diameters in 1966 to eliminate so many ties in scores.

In real shooting situations, consider the difference between a .308 Win. and a .300 Win. Mag. shooting Sierra 190 HPMK's at 1000 yards; both able to shoot inside 8 inches at 1000 yards as tested in machine rests without human intervention. The .308 (the cartridge that's more poochy and slow) has 25% more drift for a 1 mph change in cross wind speed; 10 inches vs. 8 inches. But the .308 will shoot smaller groups fired prone from the shoulder because it has less recoil. Typical differences at 1000 yards in perfect conditions by top shooters I've noticed is the same person shooting the .308 will shoot about 15 inches and the .300 about 20 inches. The 10-ring on the NRA 1000 yard target is 20 inches. A one-half mph change in cross wind (undetected and not corrected for with a sight change) will move the .308's group 5 inches sideways. The .300 group will move only 4 inches sideways, but it now has a few shots at its side in the 9 ring. Meanwhile, the .308's group is still in the 10 ring. Which is the reason why many folks shooting .308's at 1000 yards will score better than those shooting .300's.

ZeroJunk · December 7, 2009, 08:45 AM

Interesting post Bart.

If you wanted a 30/06 for no other reason than that you wanted a 30/06 could you simply rent a reamer with a 1 1/2 degree leade? Is it simple as that? And if it shoots better is there a reason they stayed at 2 1/2 or are commercial rifles something else already?

kraigwy · December 7, 2009, 10:02 AM

Its hard to talk about long range matches without discussing the Palma Matches.

If one is serious about long range target shooting, you pretty much have to have a 308 in your stack of rifles. Palma Rules require a 308 and limit a 155 grn bullet.

To shoot 1000 yards, (or anything beyond 600) all that is needed is to keep the bullet super sonic. If not, you are gonna have tumbling problems.

If you just want to bang away at gongs then any of the 6 or 6,5 classes work, I'm not against them, heavy knows I have some wierd stuff. If you are serious about long range TARGET shooting, like I said, a 308 should be in your arsenal.

Notice, it this and my earlier post I stress TARGETS. I've been shooting HP and 1000 yard matches for over 30 years. I'm confident I could hit something at that range but never, since I was a kid, have I seen the need to hunt at anything past 200 yards, yeah a couple times on antelope I might have stretched it to 250 or 300 but in perfect conditions. I believe we ow it to the animals and fair chase, but thats just my opinion.

So my discussions of long range shooting is strickly target shooting. I'm too old and out of the net to be talking about sniping anymore.

Bart B. · December 7, 2009, 02:22 PM

Zerojunk asks:

Quote:

If you wanted a 30/06 for no other reason than that you wanted a 30/06 could you simply rent a reamer with a 1 1/2 degree leade? Is it simple as that? And if it shoots better is there a reason they stayed at 2 1/2 or are commercial rifles something else already?

It may be. I don't know for sure if changing the leade a bit is all it takes. Some of the more modern powders may well burn well enough to make up for the issues some decades ago.

Kraig comments:

Quote:

Its hard to talk about long range matches without discussing the Palma Matches.

I wrote the first rule for NRA's High Power Rule Book defining the Palma rifle's specs. All it said was the rifle had to shoot either the .308 Win. or .30-06. I made it that way so folks could shoot their 30 caliber Garands in a Palma match if that's the only rifle they had. One guy won the Palma match at the Nationals a few years later with a .30-06; two years in a row as I remember. A friend told me he did have a 1.5 degree leade but I'm not privy to any other stuff. A few years later, the USA's NRA High Power Committee changed that rule to allow only the .308 Win. to get in line with other countries participating in the World Long Range Championship and Palma Matches. But virtually every one who's been on the US Palma Team knows well enough that the .308's a better round for long range paper punching than the .30-06. This aside, Someone shooting a .30-06 that's only 95% as accurate could still beat the pants (and skirts) off the men (and women) who otherwise win matches and set records at long range shooting the .308. It's happened before this instance.

One other thing to consider; case uniformity. The longer a case is for its diameter, the harder it is for the machines and case forming punches and dies to coin, cup, draw, form, rim and headstamp .308 cases from a sheet of cartridge brass than the .30-06 or longer ones. Sorting cases for wall thickness uniformity will yield a higher percentage of "perfect" ones from a batch of .308 cases than '06 ones.

I've no idea what factory .30-06 chamber leade angles are these days. Probably the same as they were over a hundred years ago; 2.5 degrees.

And going back to Silent Warriors post, he says:

Quote:

I’m sort of leaning toward the 7mm Remington Mag. at the moment, because it outperforms both the .308 and .30-06, and comes very close to the .300 Win. Mag., while offering some very impressive BCs with 175gr. bullets. Does the 7mm Rem. Mag. suffer the same reloading issues as the .300 Win. Mag.?

When a good friend won the 1000-yard scope match at the Nationals in 1970 setting the new record with a borrowed 7mm Rem Mag, that set off the surge for everyone to use this round for such events. First thing they learned was barrel life was only about 800 rounds. Not surprising as at the same time I was using a very accurate .264 Win. Mag. but its barrel lasted only 650 rounds. Such is life with these way overbore capacity cartridges.

One thing with belted cases used in competion. When they were popular for long range prone matches shooting 25 or more shots per match, folks shooting the best scores used either new cases or fired ones full length sized twice; once with a standard die with its neck lapped out a bit so expander balls weren't used and again with one that just sized the body completely to the belt. (Made by cutting off the top and bottom of a standard die so just the body part was used.) This sized down that tiny ridge right in front of the belt that all such cases get when fired. Doing this got the same excellent accuracy new belted cases delivered. Larry Willis (www.larrywillis.com) now make a collet die that does this. Nobody shooting neck only sized belted cases was ever a contender at long range matches.

Jimro · December 8, 2009, 12:01 AM

Bart B.

Quote:

Contrary to what one post said about the 30.06 having a 10mm powder gap, both the .308 and .30-06 are typically loaded to 95% or more load density; no way is there a 10mm powder gap in the '06.

I am not disagreeing with you about commercial ammo, but I was referencing service rifle loads.

The M2 milspec 30-06 load with the M80 7.62x51 load. They both launch a 147~151 gr FMJ at the same velocity. This isn't a match load by any stretch of the imagination, but the shorter case is much easier for machineguns to feed which was a big consideration. The 30-06 service load had transitioned between bullet weights and velocities over the years and the powder advances lead to around 10mm of the brass not being filled by the time the 1950's rolled around.

Jimro

Bart B. · December 8, 2009, 11:11 AM

Jimro, I too, was referencing service ammo. In all the hundreds of 30 caliber ball, AP, tracer and match ammo I've pulled bullets from none had 10 mm of space between the top of the powder column and the base of the bullet. If your observations are different, so be it.

Lake City Arsenal's specs for muzzle velocity on both 30 caliber and 7.62 NATO ball ammo at 50,000 CUP pressure were about 15 fps apart. Fastest one was the NATO round. Accuracy specs for both were 7.5 inch mean radius average at 600 yards.

One other thing Mike Walker (designer of the 7.62 NATO round) wanted for machine gun use was better case shoulder that had less resistance to being set back by firing pin impact than the .30-06 does. Hence the larger diameter case shoulder and steeper shoulder angle on the NATO round. He also made the 7.62's extractor groove area more robust to increase reliability in machine guns.

Jimro · December 8, 2009, 12:13 PM

Bart B.

Just pulled apart some milsurp (Korean 1972) ammo, from the base of the bullet (about halfway down the neck of the brass, handy sealant ring left behind inside the neck made it easy to measure) to the top of the powder column was over 10mm. The powder weighed in at 47.6 grains as measured by by an Ohaus 505 scale. I have some Lake City stuff around here somewhere, I'll pull one apart later today to see if it compares. But since the Koreans were using US Garands I'm pretty sure that the loading is typical for M2 ball.

The powder was filled almost to the shoulder of the bottleneck.

If you measure from the base of the neck to the base of the shoulder then there would only have been a 4~5mm gap, but since the bullet only goes halfway down the neck it adds another 4~5mm's.

Jimro

jeo556 · December 8, 2009, 01:17 PM

Read these articles. Zak Smith is a very knowledgable and highly regarded long range shooter.

A case for the .260 Rem in Practical Long Range Shooting.
http://demigodllc.com/articles/the-c...260-remington/

6.5 Creedmore, A .260 Rem Done Right?
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-c...60-done-right/

6.5mm Shootout
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-s...6.5-creedmoor/

Good luck.

silent_warrior · December 8, 2009, 08:37 PM

Thank you Bart, you've been very helpful.

So if I'm understanding you correctly, the .308 would be a good choice for a 1000M sniping role, even though it has less energy than magnum calibers and less velocity than smaller 6mm, 6.5mm, and 7mm calibers? One would just need to be more precise when measure distance to compensate for the faster drop, correct? And as far as barrel life is concerned, you're saying that the .308 outshines both magnums and smaller calibers in that regard, and it seems by a considerable margin, correct? Correct me if I'm wrong, but earlier you recommended the 6.5x284 Norma, even though from my understanding it has one of the shortest barrel life spans of any of the calibers we've been talking about?

So in summary, (and if I've misunderstood please correct me) if I'm concerned with barrel life, the .308 is going to best suit my needs. However, if barrel life is not a concern for me, a 6.5mm cartridge is going to do all that I'm asking it to as well or better than the .308, so I should be deciding between a .260 Remington, 6.5 Creedmore, 6.5x47 Lapua, or 6.5x284 Norma. So the question becomes, should I be concerned with barrel life? How much does re-barreling cost? I'm not rich by any means, but If I'm willing to spend up to $2000 on a quality rifle, I'm not going to worry about spending a couple hundred every 5-10 years. If re-barreling is uber expensive however, that may be an issue to me. Cheaper may not be better, but if I can accomplish the same goal with less stress on the wallet I'm all for it.

December 6, 2009, 01:41 AM	#1
silent_warrior Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 2009 Posts: 109	Optimum 1000M Cartridge? (lengthy post – beware) I’m looking to add another rifle to my collection (if you can call three rifles a collection). Specifically, I’m looking for a medium range (≤1000M) target rifle, since I already have a short range (≤500M) target rifle/light carry hunting rifle: Remington 700 chambered in .243 Winchester, 24” sporter barrel, laminate thumbhole stock, 4-16x42 scope. Maybe not the best choice, but it fits the bill for now. Instead of just jumping on the .308 bandwagon, I’d like to know if this really is the best medium range ‘sniper’ caliber, or if the military chose it for other reasons, like cost. I’m looking for facts and opinions. Hopefully you guys can help me out. I want to find the best cartridge for meeting the following criteria: • Muzzle velocity of over 2500FPS • Available with a ballistic coefficient of .450 or greater • Supersonic past 1000M • Maintains at least 500ft/lbs of energy at 1000M • Maintains 1500ft/lbs of energy through 400M • Can be chambered in a rifle weighing 10-12lbs, fitted with a scope and bipod • Currently chambered in a high quality tactical rifle for less than $2,000; OR • Can be chambered in a custom precision rifle for less than $2,000. • Can CONSISTENTLY achieve 1MOA or better at 1000M (accuracy/consistency is most important) I’ve been considering the following cartridges: • .308 Winchester (7.62x51mm) • .30-06 Springfield (7.62x63mm) • .300 Winchester Mag. • .300 Remington Ultra Mag. • 7mm Remington Mag. The .308 seems to be a little underpowered for a 1000M role in my opinion, and I don’t think it’s really capable of firing the 200gr. and heavier .30 cal bullets at reasonable velocities. Am I wrong? The .30-06 has more energy than the .308, and I’ve been told it’s perfectly capable of 1000M shots; however, I still question its ability to fire the 200gr. and heavier bullets with optimal BCs at reasonable velocities. I don't want to be lobbing bullets. I also wonder if the .30-06 is superior to the .308, why did the military switch? The .300 Win. Mag. really seems to fit the bill nicely as a 1000M+ caliber. My only worry is reloading – I’ve been told the case becomes quite thin and can only be reloaded a couple times before it must be discarded. Is the .300 Win. Mag. different from other cartridges in that regard? While the .300 Remington Ultra Mag. packs the biggest punch of these five, I’ve never really heard of it being used as a target or sniper caliber. Is there any reason for this? It seems to me that a .300 Remington Ultra Mag. loaded with a 240gr. Sierra Matchking BTHP bullet would be a very impressive round. I’m sort of leaning toward the 7mm Remington Mag. at the moment, because it outperforms both the .308 and .30-06, and comes very close to the .300 Win. Mag., while offering some very impressive BCs with 175gr. bullets. Does the 7mm Rem. Mag. suffer the same reloading issues as the .300 Win. Mag.? Of course, I’m always open to suggestions. Is there another caliber that fits the criteria even better than any of the five I’ve been considering? (Please don’t suggest the .338 Lapua Mag., .408 Chey Tec, .416 Barrett, or .50 BMG… I’m looking for a 1000M caliber, not a 1600M+ caliber. I don’t want a 30lb rifle.) Last edited by silent_warrior; December 7, 2009 at 02:03 AM.

December 6, 2009, 09:25 AM	#8
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	It doesn't matter to me what your egos are, but you're comments on the .308 Win. and other long range shooting facts are somewhat off center as far as reality is concerned. The .308 kicked the pants off the .30-06 as far as accuracy is concerned back in the early 1960's when it was first used in competition. The .308 proved about twice as accurate as the .30-06 with equal quality barrels, bullets, cases, reloading tools and techniques as well as shooters. Folks using the .308 Win. with 200 up to 250 grain bullets shot more accurate at 1000 yards than the .30-06 or any 30 caliber magnum. The reason is not muzzle velocity. It's how more uniform their muzzle velocity is and their mild recoil lets them be shot more accurate. Heavier recoil rifles of the same weight move more while the bullet's going down the barrel and they're harder to hold still during this time. And their muzzle velocity spread tends to get bigger. If your worried about humans doing harm to you and yours, your first objective should be to hit them at long range with the first shot. Which means you have to have the skills and knowledge to range the target, judge wind conditions, make corrections for your load under horrible conditions, then shoot well enough to not miss your point of aim by more than 5 inches at maximum range. Fewer than 1% of all the high power rifle long range competitors can do this; even on their favorite range where they know their zero for it, hold an aiming area of 3/4ths MOA laying on their belly on the 1000-yard line aiming a rifle loaded with ammo that'll shoot all day long inside 3/4ths MOA, then try to get their shot off well inside their holding area. Which means if the first bullet they shoot strikes within 5 to 7 inches of where they call the shot, they throw a mental party. Less than 1/4th of that top 1% of all the competitors do that half the time. Go to a 1000-yard high power rifle match then watch the master-classified (highest ranked) shooters do their stuff. Note how far each one's first shot goes from dead center on the target. Most of the time they miss dead center by at least 10 inches; in all directions. So one needs a cartridge that'll do this. This is in addition to one needing the ammo acquiring skills (reloading?) and rifle to do this. One should not use a cartridge any bigger than necessary. One cartridge does fill this bill; the 6.5x.284. It's been popular for folks laying on their belly winning matches and setting records along the way for a decade or more. The folks using it used to shoot 30 caliber magnums to do as well, but when top quality 26 caliber bullets could be had, they changed to a round with equal accuracy, better wind bucking ability, much easier to shoot accurately and had a longer barrel life. Personally, I don't think any off-the-shelf rifle is capable of doing this. All the ones that do this consistantly are custom built. It's the same in auto sports; nobody goes to a car dealer to buy something that'll do what the best in NASCAR, Indy 500 or Formula 1 races do. You'll be better off using a Winchester Model 70 action over the Remington to have a rifle built that'll do what I think your objectives are. Especially if you really want a 30 caliber magnum. Winnie's have a better safety, more reliable rapid fire operation with their longer and better designed bolt handle, more reliable extractor, almost a 3 times stiffer receiver, easier way to replace firing pin springs (got to be replaced every two years if best long-term accuracy is desired) and their flat surfaces better keep the receiver well bedded in the epoxy around them in the stock when bullets heavier than 160 grains are shot faster than 2800 fps. All this can be done if one uses and does all the right stuff. Last edited by Bart B.; December 6, 2009 at 10:16 AM.

December 6, 2009, 09:27 PM	#12
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	I have a .300 RUM on order for long range shooting. I was split between the .300 WM and the RUM, but the non-belted cartridge of the RUM won for reloading purposes. A calm day on my range has 15 mph winds, and I preferred the magnum over the 308. On the other hand, it will be a 15 lbs rifle to keep the recoil in check; not something to drag into the mountains for hunting. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

December 6, 2009, 02:43 AM	#2
g_avery Member Join Date: March 14, 2009 Posts: 16	I dont know much, I'm just getting into long range shooting, but the guys I talk to either shoot .223 or .308. For a target rifle, they arent too concerned about punch at 1000 yards. I believe for .308 they are shooting 155 grain bullets and for .223 they are using 80 grains. For a hunting rifle however, I have no idea.

December 6, 2009, 02:45 AM	#3
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,060	Dont tell service rifle shooters the 308 isnt any good for 1000 yards. I've shot some damn good scores with M14s & M1As at a 1000 yards, use the 175 grn SMK at 2550 it works. I've kind of backed off the 308 and gone to the AR in 223 at 1000 yards, It works. The 300 WM is an excellant 1000 yard gun in heavy wind, but you shoot 40-80 rounds a day in a series of matches, the recoil is gonna get to you, I dont care how tough you think you are. Mine is quite heavy yet it still gets me. The '03 is a good medium between the 308 and 300 WM. I build a Vietnam Era Sniper rifle on a Winchester action, '06 of course. You can use heavier bullets (190s are good, but mostly I stick to the 175 SMK) I use it for the Any rifle any sight & any rifle iron sight stage. I save the 300 wm for heavy wind. I think the three would fit the bill. With the others (except the 7 RM a d it to a point) you are re-inventing the wheel. Lots of data and factory match ammo available. There are many others out there that would work fine. I listed the three, because they, with the 223, are the military 1000 yard guns and thats where my experience lies. Regardless of what you choose, its not the gun or ammo at 1000 yards, its the shooter and his ability to read wind, mirage, and other conditions.

December 6, 2009, 03:13 AM	#4
silent_warrior Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 2009 Posts: 109	Thank you for the replies so far. Don't read into it too much though. I'm not looking to get into heavy competition. Actually, its more of a hobby project for me - finding the best of the best combination - so I really don't mind if I end up reinventing the wheel. What I'm trying to build, is a 1000M sniper rifle. I'd like to try a couple shooting matches after some practice, but I'm doing it more for kicks than competition. I'm picky about everything I own serving a legitimate purpose. If all the rifle can do is punch paper at 1000M, it's no good to me. If I can also take it out hunting, and use it to pick of zombies when they come to take over the world, then that works for me. My justification for spending the money, if you will. (and yes, zombies was sarcasm, but there's nothing wrong with owning a usable sniper rifle.) Since it's more or less a project sniper rifle, that's why I'm not considering the .223. I have one of those, but it's an M4.

December 6, 2009, 03:23 AM	#5
jman841 Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2009 Posts: 715	The .308 has certainly proved itself in the military settings, however i think the .300 win mag is an excellent 1000 meter round and would be the best round to suit your purpose. Any of the rounds you stated would work, especially if you are reloading.

December 6, 2009, 03:33 AM	#6
sc928porsche Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Location: now living in alabama Posts: 2,433	The 30-378wby is about tops for 30 cal. Keep in mind that for it to start to perform it should be in a 28" bbl. A 30" would be even better. Matched up with the 250gr. it is awesome. In standard barrel lengths (24-26) it isnt any better than the 300rum. Its not untill you get into the longer barrels does it start to come into its own.

December 6, 2009, 04:09 AM	#7
mesabi Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2007 Posts: 373	.30-06 is 7.62x63 Have you considered 6.5mm or 6mm calibers? I would google Practical Long Range Shooting. You can also look at www.6mmbr.com or www.snipercentral.com.

December 6, 2009, 10:56 AM	#9
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 19,184	As Bart says, the 6.5x284 is a leading choice among 1000 yard shooters shooting events where caliber is not restricted. A friend went to the F-class Nationals at Ft Butner and said there were some shooters who had gone to 7mm because of the high BC of a 175-178 grain .284" VLD or SMK. Not in 7mm R.M., though. He saw 7mm WSM and a wildcat 7mm-.270WSM made up for some obscure refinement of case capacity suiting the powders available. Only a few dinosaurs shooting .30 magnums, though. Where caliber is restricted, the usual standard is .308. It will send a 155 or 175 grain bullet of high BC to 1000 yards supersonic with good accuracy. Not a 168, though. The old Sierra International design runs out of steam before it gets there at non-magnum velocity. Looking at your wants and budget, my recommendation is "none of the above" from your caliber list, get a Savage F-Class rifle in 6.5x284. http://www.savagearms.com/12f_class.htm You can probably beat the list price of $1341 which is good because a scope adequate for 1000 yards (or meters, but there are few French Measure ranges in the USA) is going to cost approaching the price of the rifle. I have a Leupold 8.5-25X on my F/T-R .308 and am just consumed with envy when I look through my friend's Nightforce. But then he felt the same way when he got to shoot a rifle with a March scope. I trust you are a proficient handloader. Factory match ammunition is darned expensive.

December 6, 2009, 01:39 PM	#10
mesabi Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2007 Posts: 373	I read the 6XC has won the last 3 across the course national championships and a NRA long range national. Tubb along with that cartridge got a perfect score with it as well. Tubb tsk spec tak lr looks like an interesting rifle, available in 3 different calibers.

December 6, 2009, 09:12 PM	#11
PH/CIB Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 281	Gun Reports Home >> News From left are Brad Sauve, Paul Phillips, Jeff Rorer, and Derek Rodgers.Team Sinclair Breaks Records With F-Class Nationals Wins November 30, 2009 Printer Friendly \| Email \| Share Your Comments (0) CAMP BUTNER, N.C. -- At the recent F-Class Nationals, Team Sinclair won both the 600- and 1000-yard events, breaking national records at both distances. Brad Sauve, Jeff Rorer, Derek Rodgers, and Paul Phillips make up the Sinclair teamin the F-T/R (tactical rifle) class, which totaled 784-40X at 600 yards and 774-20X at 1000 yards. Three of the four team members shot .308 rifles off of Sinclair F-Class Bipods. The F-Class Bipod adjusts from 5.5" to 10.25" with separate, no-notch, sliding height legs and a locking tilt feature. "These gentlemen really know how to shoot and it gives us a great deal of satisfaction that our bipods were a part of their success," said Sinclair's President Bill Gravatt.

December 6, 2009, 09:43 PM	#13
rickdavis81 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2006 Location: Missouri Posts: 398	I pick .338 Edge

December 6, 2009, 10:24 PM	#14
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Optimum at 1k for what? If you are punching paper, then you don't need to worry so much about terminal ballistics. If you are going after animals, well then you do have to worry about terminal ballistics. And don't worry too much about the 308 vs. 30-06 stuff. Yes the 308 broke the 30-06's records, but the 223 is also breaking the 308's records. Does that mean the 223 is infinitely superior to the 308? That is a whole 'nother ball of wax. The true historical reason for going to the 7.62x51 was that it is easier for machine guns to shoot the shorter cartridge, and it got rid of the 10mm powder gap in the M2 30-06 load. That being said I am a big fan of the 30-06 loaded with 175, 180, or 190 gr SMK's (or other match bullet in that range like the 178 AMAX). When you handload for a modern bolt action rifle you can get velocities that really push up into the 300 Win Mag territory. This comes in handy when you are worried about terminal ballistics. If you aren't, then there are a whole bunch of 6.5's that are dang near custom made for long range shooting. The 6.5x47 Lapua is a great one for long range performance with low recoil, as is the 260 Rem. Zak Smith wrote an article comparing them with the 6.5 Creedmore which someone will reference here soon enough. Jimro

December 6, 2009, 11:07 PM	#15
sdj Senior Member Join Date: May 24, 2005 Posts: 462	Recently in the market for a 600 yard (and beyond) rifle / caliber, I posted the following: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=378057 In the end, I went with a .308 because I do not reload. I was looking for a paper puncher, so I had no requirements for terminal ballistics that hunters require. .223 ran a very close second, and that will likely be the next purchase. Lots of good stuff here, too: http://demigodllc.com/ Enjoy.

December 7, 2009, 02:49 AM	#16
silent_warrior Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 2009 Posts: 109	Ok, I'll bite on the 6.5mm/.264" calibers. You've all presented some strong arguments. However, in the case of the 6.5x284 Norma, according to my research it has an incredibly short barrel life... which is an issue for me. I'm just starting out with the whole precision shooting thing so I'm going to need a lot of practice, and re-barreling sounds expensive. My current experience lies mostly in punching paper from 50-200M with a .22WMR. Obviously I need a proper rifle to shoot farther, so I'm starting the search for the proper caliber first. Another question about 6.5mm/.264 calibers, why do they outperform 7mm/.284 calibers? From what I've researched so far, the .284 175gr match bullets have a higher BC than any .264 match bullet I've found (though some come very close). It makes me wonder why the 6.5x284 Norma comes so much more recommended than the 7mm Remington Mag? So as far as the .308 is concerned, the reason for its famed accuracy is in it's consistency, I get that, but WHY is it so consistent? Lower muzzle velocities? Some magic feature about the shape of the case? The .30 cal bullet? I've previously heard all three as reasons, but have not heard a convincing argument yet. If its anything to do with the case, then shouldn't the .243WIN, .260REM, and 7mm-08 all be just as consistent? And if its the muzzle velocity, couldn't you just use a heavier (and thus higher BC) .30 cal bullet in a magnum cartridge (and download, if necessary) to replicate velocity? And my final questions this time around, 1) can a .308 be loaded hotter to give it more energy and so it's not, to quote SniperCentral, "dropping like a rock" past 800M, and would that affect its famed consistency at all, if possible? 2) What is the heaviest bullet a .308 can fire without becoming any more poochy (slow) or losing accuracy? Thanks for all the replies so far.

December 7, 2009, 08:45 AM	#18
ZeroJunk Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Browns Summit NC Posts: 2,589	Interesting post Bart. If you wanted a 30/06 for no other reason than that you wanted a 30/06 could you simply rent a reamer with a 1 1/2 degree leade? Is it simple as that? And if it shoots better is there a reason they stayed at 2 1/2 or are commercial rifles something else already?

December 7, 2009, 10:02 AM	#19
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,060	Its hard to talk about long range matches without discussing the Palma Matches. If one is serious about long range target shooting, you pretty much have to have a 308 in your stack of rifles. Palma Rules require a 308 and limit a 155 grn bullet. To shoot 1000 yards, (or anything beyond 600) all that is needed is to keep the bullet super sonic. If not, you are gonna have tumbling problems. If you just want to bang away at gongs then any of the 6 or 6,5 classes work, I'm not against them, heavy knows I have some wierd stuff. If you are serious about long range TARGET shooting, like I said, a 308 should be in your arsenal. Notice, it this and my earlier post I stress TARGETS. I've been shooting HP and 1000 yard matches for over 30 years. I'm confident I could hit something at that range but never, since I was a kid, have I seen the need to hunt at anything past 200 yards, yeah a couple times on antelope I might have stretched it to 250 or 300 but in perfect conditions. I believe we ow it to the animals and fair chase, but thats just my opinion. So my discussions of long range shooting is strickly target shooting. I'm too old and out of the net to be talking about sniping anymore.

December 8, 2009, 11:11 AM	#22
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Jimro, I too, was referencing service ammo. In all the hundreds of 30 caliber ball, AP, tracer and match ammo I've pulled bullets from none had 10 mm of space between the top of the powder column and the base of the bullet. If your observations are different, so be it. Lake City Arsenal's specs for muzzle velocity on both 30 caliber and 7.62 NATO ball ammo at 50,000 CUP pressure were about 15 fps apart. Fastest one was the NATO round. Accuracy specs for both were 7.5 inch mean radius average at 600 yards. One other thing Mike Walker (designer of the 7.62 NATO round) wanted for machine gun use was better case shoulder that had less resistance to being set back by firing pin impact than the .30-06 does. Hence the larger diameter case shoulder and steeper shoulder angle on the NATO round. He also made the 7.62's extractor groove area more robust to increase reliability in machine guns.

December 8, 2009, 12:13 PM	#23
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Bart B. Just pulled apart some milsurp (Korean 1972) ammo, from the base of the bullet (about halfway down the neck of the brass, handy sealant ring left behind inside the neck made it easy to measure) to the top of the powder column was over 10mm. The powder weighed in at 47.6 grains as measured by by an Ohaus 505 scale. I have some Lake City stuff around here somewhere, I'll pull one apart later today to see if it compares. But since the Koreans were using US Garands I'm pretty sure that the loading is typical for M2 ball. The powder was filled almost to the shoulder of the bottleneck. If you measure from the base of the neck to the base of the shoulder then there would only have been a 4~5mm gap, but since the bullet only goes halfway down the neck it adds another 4~5mm's. Jimro

December 8, 2009, 01:17 PM	#24
jeo556 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2007 Location: Southwestern, PA Posts: 268	Read these articles. Zak Smith is a very knowledgable and highly regarded long range shooter. A case for the .260 Rem in Practical Long Range Shooting. http://demigodllc.com/articles/the-c...260-remington/ 6.5 Creedmore, A .260 Rem Done Right? http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-c...60-done-right/ 6.5mm Shootout http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-s...6.5-creedmoor/ Good luck.

December 8, 2009, 08:37 PM	#25
silent_warrior Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 2009 Posts: 109	Thank you Bart, you've been very helpful. So if I'm understanding you correctly, the .308 would be a good choice for a 1000M sniping role, even though it has less energy than magnum calibers and less velocity than smaller 6mm, 6.5mm, and 7mm calibers? One would just need to be more precise when measure distance to compensate for the faster drop, correct? And as far as barrel life is concerned, you're saying that the .308 outshines both magnums and smaller calibers in that regard, and it seems by a considerable margin, correct? Correct me if I'm wrong, but earlier you recommended the 6.5x284 Norma, even though from my understanding it has one of the shortest barrel life spans of any of the calibers we've been talking about? So in summary, (and if I've misunderstood please correct me) if I'm concerned with barrel life, the .308 is going to best suit my needs. However, if barrel life is not a concern for me, a 6.5mm cartridge is going to do all that I'm asking it to as well or better than the .308, so I should be deciding between a .260 Remington, 6.5 Creedmore, 6.5x47 Lapua, or 6.5x284 Norma. So the question becomes, should I be concerned with barrel life? How much does re-barreling cost? I'm not rich by any means, but If I'm willing to spend up to $2000 on a quality rifle, I'm not going to worry about spending a couple hundred every 5-10 years. If re-barreling is uber expensive however, that may be an issue to me. Cheaper may not be better, but if I can accomplish the same goal with less stress on the wallet I'm all for it.