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Old January 19, 2009, 08:56 PM   #1
JohnH1963
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How do I get the permits to own an automatic weapon?

For myself, the common man, owning an automatic weapon seems like an impossibility. I wouldnt know where to begin and I would probably be denied a permit to get one even if I tried. Somehow I would be denied or stonewalled for any reason or no reason.

So how do all these guys on youtube and at these firearms events seem to have M60s and other automatic weapons? If obtaining the permits is so difficult, how did these guys get those permits? Where did they find the people to sell them these weapons? How does an M60 machine gun get put out to the public?
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Old January 19, 2009, 09:06 PM   #2
Lavid2002
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step one-obtain a very large ammount of money
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Old January 19, 2009, 09:45 PM   #3
scorpion_tyr
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As far as my understanding goes... In a state where it is legal: $200 for the tax stamp + background check + a whole lot of money for the gun = you owning an automatic weapon, suppressor, etc.

Ask the guys in the NFA area. This is right up their alley. I do know that a lot of those guys on youtube are renting those guns from gun ranges that offer auto weapons, not all of them, just a lot.
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Old January 19, 2009, 10:12 PM   #4
Webleymkv
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Here's my understanding (to those who know more, feel free to correct me):

Step 1-You must find a dealer with a Class III FFL as they're the only ones who may deal in NFA weapons (machine guns, silencers, etc.) and select a weapon that was registered in the NFA registry before 1986 (this only applies for full-auto, silencers and AOW can be brand new)

Step 2-You must make your application to both the federal gov't and your local chief law enforcement officer, both must approve.

Step 3-Pay the $200 tax stamp

Step 4-Take posession of your weapon.

The largest impediment is that the NFA registry was closed to full-auto in 1986, therefore only LEOs or Class III FFL's may legally posess a post-86 full auto. Because of this, the price of pre-86 full-autos is very high (typically $10K and up).
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Old January 19, 2009, 11:45 PM   #5
Bud Helms
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NFA Guns & Gear ... whoosh!
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Old January 20, 2009, 03:23 AM   #6
Bill DeShivs
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There is no "permit," per se. Each gun purchase requires payment of a tax, and there is paperwork (described above.)
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Old January 20, 2009, 10:37 AM   #7
jmorris
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Webley was pretty close but I’ll add.

If you wanted to make a suppressor, SBR, SBS, AOW or a destructive device you don’t need to find a class 3 dealer. You just need to fill out a form 1 and wait for approval to begin. (as above no new full auto post 5/19/86)

You also don’t need any local LEO approval if you first form a Trust (that will actually own the firearms.)

In between the $200 tax and take possession of your weapon is about a 4 month wait.

Full auto is where you can spend some big bucks; however, you can still get something like an m11 around $3k
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Old January 20, 2009, 05:23 PM   #8
Skans
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Most states permit citizens to own full-auto weapons. You can forget California, Illinois, New York, New Jersey and probably a few others.

1. The first step is to contact the Sheriff of the county in which you live. Ask the Sheriff if he will sign off on a Form 4 for you to own a machine gun. He'll know what you are asking. Generally, Big City Sheriffs are less likely to sign; small town and more rural Sheriffs seem more inclined to sign. You'll either get a positive response or a smart-ass response.

2. Have about $4,000+ cash ready to spend. You will need to pay for the gun, at least one $200 revenue stamp tax, and some money to a Class III dealer to complete the transfer for you.

3. If you are a convicted felon, you can probably forget about it.

4. Be prepared to have the local Sheriff do his own investigation, which could mean just about anything. Mine sent a deputy out to interview my neighbors and interview my wife before he would sign. I've heard of some who want to see that you have a safe to lock it up in.

5. Find and negotiate your purchase of the intended firearm. Complete the Form 4 (ask others how to answer certain questions), and submit it to BATFE together with finger print card and photograph. BATFE will get the FBI to do a background investigation on you - what they actually do, beyond a NICS check, I have no idea. Wait 3-6 months and then your Class III dealer will notify you when you can take possession of the machinegun you have already purchased.

6. Note, you need to know whether you can get through the process before you purchase the gun. The purchase takes place when you pay for it, not when you take possession. If you aren't permitted to take possession - YOU STILL OWN THE MACHINEGUN, but it must stay with the Class III dealer, meaning you will probably have to turn around and sell it.

7. There are ways to get around a CLEO who won't sign off on your Form 4 - LLC, Corp, Trust. Yes, if done right, it works, but you will need to pay a lawyer to do this for you. Not a huge deal, but just more added bullcrap.

8. If you do complete the transfer and take possession of the machinegun - KNOW THE LAWS regarding moving out of state.

9. Also note: check and make sure that you actually have a place somewhat nearby that you can shoot it if you intend to shoot it. I had to join a private shooting range for this.

Last edited by Skans; January 20, 2009 at 05:30 PM.
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Old January 21, 2009, 02:48 PM   #9
FireCop203
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First they have to be legal in the state you live in. I don't know what state that is, so I cant tell you if they are legal where you are. They are legal in the majority of the U.S. Basically, if you can walk into a store that sells firearms and purchase one legally, you are qualified to purchase a full auto legally. (NO felony convictions)

There are two ways to obtain full autos. The first is an individual process.

You must have the following:

2 Form 4s.
2 photographs of yourself attached to the Form 4s.
The CLEO must sign the form 4s. (usually the County Sheriff, but there are others that can qualify).
2 Fingerprintcards.
1 Citizenship form.
$200.00 check or money order for the tax stamp.

All of these things are sent together in one packet.

One other thing you must have is patience. The transfers are taking 60-90 days right now. My last one took 90 days exactly. The BATFE is a federal agency and they do not get in a hurry.

The forms are available either online at www.atf.gov Or, the BATFE website gives you a toll-free number to call and you can actually speak to a human.

If you find an individual in the same state as you who has a full auto that they want to sell, no dealer is required. All you have to do is fill out the paperwork and send it in to BATFE and wait for the return of the Form 4 and it's yours.

If it is in another state, it must be transferred from a dealer in that state to a dealer in your state and then to you through the dealer in your state. This will result in the payment of two transfer taxes and whatever fees the dealers charge for the transfer and the shipping.

The other method is to form a trust. I know very little about this method cause I've never done it. The advantages of a trust is that you do not have to have fingerprint cards, pictures or CLEO signatures.

You also asked, Where did they find the people to sell them these weapons? How does an M60 machine gun get put out to the public?


Some are found here: www.subguns.com

There are others, just use Google.

There are thousands out there, but they can be expensive. Thanks to a change in the law May 19, 1986, there is no further new manufacture of fully automatic weapons available to the public. Anything created after this date is considered "Post 86" manufactured and can only be sold to Law Enforcement agencies (not individual officers) or to the Military.
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Old January 21, 2009, 09:27 PM   #10
MartinBrody
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If they are legal in your state and you can own a gun you probably won't be denied. There is no permit just a tax stamp, you have to fill out some forms, get finger printed and photographed and have your local chief law enforcement officer sign some forms saying this is legal where you live, if he won't sign there are some other options like forming a trust of corporation. Find someone in your area that sells these types of guns (google class 3 dealer and your state) and ask them, they will be able to answer all these questions. The biggest obstacle is $$$, anything that was not on the full auto registry by 1986 you can't have, so it has driven the prices up, an M60 for example might cost more than $20,000.

Some of those videos on youtube are regular guys who can afford it and went through this process, others have a type of FFL that allows them to possess/manufacture machine guns.
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Old January 22, 2009, 10:33 AM   #11
Skans
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Quote:
If they are legal in your state and you can own a gun you probably won't be denied.
There are plenty of CLEO's who won't sign off in states where MG's are perfectly legal. I happen to live in one of those states. Just depends on what county you are living in.

If you don't know if your CLEO will sign-off, and you don't intend to go the trust/corp/llc route, then you have no business even shopping for a machinegun before you first talk with the CLEO and see if he will sign-off on your transfer. In my opinon, that's the absolute first step. Otherwise, you might find yourself in a position of buying a full-auto gun and then either having to reneg on the deal, or have your class-III dealer sell it off for you because you can't take possession.
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Old January 22, 2009, 01:12 PM   #12
Al Thompson
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Skans is right. At last report, our sheriff will not sign. Have to either move or go the trust route.
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Old January 22, 2009, 05:04 PM   #13
jmorris
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If you don't know if your CLEO will sign-off, and you don't intend to go the trust/corp/llc route, then you have no business even shopping for a machinegun before you first talk with the CLEO and see if he will sign-off on your transfer. In my opinon, that's the absolute first step. Otherwise, you might find yourself in a position of buying a full-auto gun and then either having to reneg on the deal, or have your class-III dealer sell it off for you because you can't take possession.
I went one step further; before I went off buying machine guns I “tested” the trust on form 1’s. Just incase, if it didn’t work for some reason I wasn’t out any money except postage. Yeah, that takes extra time and money but you need to have both if you want to play with NFA stuff.
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Old January 22, 2009, 08:29 PM   #14
MartinBrody
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Quote:
Quote:
If they are legal in your state and you can own a gun you probably won't be denied.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are plenty of CLEO's who won't sign off in states where MG's are perfectly legal.
I was referring to the ATF denial not your local CLEO signoff. If your local CLEO won't sign it is not denying your purchase of an NFA item. If you are willing to spend $10k I don't think setting up a trust or corp is that much of a hurdle. There are plenty of people who go trust/corp even though their CLEO will sign.
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Old January 23, 2009, 11:11 AM   #15
jmorris
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I don't think setting up a trust or corp is that much of a hurdle.
It's not; I spent a week or two researching and set mine up myself (12 pages). Before I send them with my form1's or 4's I run by the bank and have them notarized.
Just so we all have cool toys to play with, all the trust costs members of our shooting club is a case of cold ones.


One other benefit I failed to mention is that the items are held by the trust not you. So when the trustee dies the beneficiary(s) become the new trustees. If you had an individual transfer (LEO sig/finger prints) and die whomever you leave your stuff has to go through the entire process and pay the taxes again.
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Old January 23, 2009, 11:15 AM   #16
Dustin0
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Need a lot of money about 3500 for a entry level gun. Buy the gun apply for the Tax stamp wait 6 months for the paper work then you get your gun. The Largest problem with getting a Full Auto is money. As long as you have a clean record you should be able to get one.
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Old January 23, 2009, 11:18 AM   #17
Dustin0
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you asked about an M60 here you go

http://www.class3only.com/m60_10283.html

Only $36,000
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Old January 23, 2009, 06:05 PM   #18
SwampYankee
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My father is a Class 3 FFL. When I was a kid he had an M60 and we would go out to the sand pit to shoot it. When I was 12, it was a hell of a good time. But it was an expensive good time, both in rifle cost and ammo. He bought it for $3K in 1981 or so. He sold it for $30K. If he sold it today, in the condition and with the accessories, he guessed he could get a cool $45K+.

But my real point is that we had a sand pit to shoot it in. The sand pit is now closed and they forbid discharging firearms there. Neither the club I belong to or the club he belongs to allow full auto shooting. It might be different if I were in the middle of North Dakota, but frankly, I can't imagine any place I could use a full auto in New England and not have the State Police show up to find out where the war was.

And for all practical purposes including target shooting, self defense and Armegeddon, I just don't see them being useful tools. Unless you are laying down cover fire, it really seems to be a rich man's hobby. Which is not to say I think we shouldn't be allowed to have them, but it seems like your money could be much better spent.

Last edited by SwampYankee; January 24, 2009 at 09:31 AM. Reason: addition
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Old February 17, 2009, 09:54 PM   #19
Gun Trust Lawyer
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Individual sales ok without dealer

If you are purchasing a machine gun within your state, and it is legal, then a Class III SOT is not necessary. A Class II dealer or transfer agent is only required if the gun is being sold from a dealer or coming from a source out of state.

In addition, you have to be 21 if a dealer is involved and only 18 if it is purchased from an individual otherwise the information above is correct.
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