The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 13, 2008, 04:47 AM   #1
GetYerShells
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 29, 2008
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 118
Clearing a house with a pistol/flashlight

Just out of curiousity how many of you keep a gun light attached to your pistols' rail? I used to, but then I thought "if I have to clear my house...and I have a light right on the tip of my gun and the BG has a gun and he see's that light he basically has to shoot at the light and has a good chance of taking off my head." Think about it, if that light is on the tip of your pistol and you have your gun at eye level and a BG shoots at that light, where is that bullet going to go? Now, I use a Surefire in my offhand with my pistol in my mainhand. I keep a good three ft. of space between the two. What type of setup/combo do you all use? If any?
__________________
Sig P226 .40, Mossberg 500 Persuader, Springfield 1911 GI, M91/30
GetYerShells is offline  
Old October 13, 2008, 07:48 AM   #2
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,564
One, . . . I would never have my light on the end of my weapon, . . . I use a stance similar to the one Tom Sellick used in the show, "Stone Undercover" or whatever it was (couple years ago on television).

With your left arm as he had his, . . . shots aimed at the light should pass to your right, . . . allowing you to concentrate and return fire to the muzzle flash you see.

Two, . . . if a house needs cleared, . . . my county sheriff sends folks equipped, trained, and tricked out to do just that, . . . one person clearing a house is a simple recipe for a funeral, . . . his.

Our master bedroom is our retreat, . . . I have no compelling need to leave there if I suspect bg's in the other part(s) of the house.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old October 13, 2008, 08:31 AM   #3
GetYerShells
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 29, 2008
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 118
If there are BG's in my house I don't think that I want to give them the luxury of 15-20 mins (police response time) to have a blue light special with my possesions. Not to mention If someone has forcefully entered my house..as far as I am concerned my family's safety is now at risk. I am not going to wait for them to come to me.
__________________
Sig P226 .40, Mossberg 500 Persuader, Springfield 1911 GI, M91/30
GetYerShells is offline  
Old October 13, 2008, 08:54 AM   #4
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,564
You are absolutely correct in what you have said, . . . but do this.

Get a young person (not one who knows the house), . . . offer him $20 to help you learn how to "clear" your house,

Give him a few minutes to "case the place" then arm yourselves with squirt guns, . . . tell him to go hide and try to "shoot" you without getting shot himself. If the kid has any moxy, . . . you will lose 19 out of 20 times. There are just simply too many places the bg can hide and see you, . . . yet you will not know he is there until you are bleeding.

Yes, . . . safety for your family is why you are there, . . . no argument. There must be some compromise in your own personal safety and your providing safety for mom & the kids, . . . but you getting shot does not help them at all. And all the "stuff" that the bg's can haul off in the 20 minutes it takes for LEO's to arrive are not worth you taking a bullet, . . . or worse, . . . or one of the kids or momma taking a bullet from a wild shot out of one of the firearms going off in the house.

Seriously, . . . I'm not slamming our picking on you, . . . but I really do think you can devise a better plan for protecting your family than trying to clear your house by yourself. Ask any LEO you can find what two things scare them the worst, . . . "domestic disturbance" will be high on their list as well as "live house clearings", . . . and they do both as teams of 2 to 10, . . . never alone.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old October 13, 2008, 09:34 AM   #5
Keltyke
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Posts: 2,933
Although I have a flashlight close by, I won't "clear my house." I'm not trained in it. Think about what you're talking about. Hunting a BG in the dark. He knows where he is and can remain silent. You have to come to him. You don't know where he is, so you have to move around and make noise, so he'll know exactly where you are. Just think what a nice target that flashlight makes. As a couple others have pointed out...BANG, you're dead.

If I hear noises (my dogs will har them first) that are suspicious enough, I'll hit the panic button on the alarm. That's right outside the bedroom door. Not much danger there. My wife and I will then bunker in the bedroom with the only approach (the hall) covered, and wait for the cops. Anything I have can be replaced. Our lives can't be, and that's the final goal - STAY ALIVE.
Keltyke is offline  
Old October 13, 2008, 09:36 AM   #6
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
Dwight, I disagree. I know my home better than anyone else. I would clear with my shotgun and no lights. I am not just walkin' around willy nilly. I am relying on my hearing more than line of sight. Hearing is a sense that "sees" around corners without giving away my position. The BG shouldn't know I am there or armed until he is actually confronted and at that point he is at a distinct disadvantage.
I also cannot await the cops and their response time in a time of crisis in MY home.
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old October 13, 2008, 09:36 AM   #7
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,756
Decide this as Gerald states well:

Possessions vs. Physical Harm

or is the ever popular posturing to show you are top dog.

Aren't so many of these threads about the latter?
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old October 13, 2008, 09:57 AM   #8
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
Glenn, It is not about possessions for me. I have so very little of monetary value in my house. It is impossible for me to replace them but that is not the reason for me to have my mentality. For me it all about someone being in my "zone" for lack of a better description.
I also realize that no one invading my home has my well being on their mind. Once they are done in my living room and kitchen and are still empty handed they have 2 options... to leave empty handed or bedrooms that have my 2 kids or the master bedroom.
Just can't let myself sit back to let them decide on which bedroom to invade.
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old October 13, 2008, 10:13 AM   #9
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,756
Brent - you already said that you would take a shotgun blast to the chest rather than hand over your wallet if someone truly had the drop on you.

About a year or two ago, I did an exercise where we were in a bedroom with a pump gun. We heard burglars. Those who went to clear were 'killed'.

As I have said, ad nauseum, decide your goal - minimize death or act for ego against what we know about 'clearing'.

Back to the OP - if you wander around with a 'on' flashlight, I don't carry if you hold it to the side or above your head - it is simple to figure out where you are and shoot you. Done this in an exercise with people who were 'clearing'.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old October 13, 2008, 10:19 AM   #10
scoutleader
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2007
Location: WestTN
Posts: 121
I our safe room we have a corded phone and a prepaid cell phone in case the phone line is out. We can get to the room by the master bedroom and my daughters room without getting into the hallway. Once in side the police will have to call me to get me to come out. The bad guy can take what he wants as long as we are ok. You can buy more stuff not a life.
scoutleader is offline  
Old October 13, 2008, 11:12 AM   #11
KLRANGL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 958
I would only clear a house as a last resort (ie family members downstairs at my parents house). Besides, my roommates at school are heavily armed and can take care of themselves. No sense putting myself out there for a possible blue on blue situation.

If you really wana go room clearing with a flashlight, I suggest getting a Blackhawk Gladius and using the strobe function. The disorienting effect has gotten my out of a few sticky situations in our CQB airsoft "battles." Thats about as close as ive come to force on force training...
__________________
And it's Killer Angel... as in the book
KLRANGL is offline  
Old October 13, 2008, 06:28 PM   #12
Mannlicher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2001
Location: North Central Florida
Posts: 2,973
I am not going to be clearning any houses. There are way too many things that go wrong, and go wrong FAST.
__________________
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan
Mannlicher is offline  
Old October 13, 2008, 07:03 PM   #13
Shawn Dodson
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 16, 1998
Location: Titusville, FL, USA
Posts: 1,030
Why are you "clearing" your house? What is your objective? Do you have family members in a remote location that you need to reach? What is the cost vs. benefit of "clearing"?

Ever hear of using a verbal challenge?
  • WHO'S THERE?!
  • I HAVE A GUN!
  • I'VE CALLED POLICE!
  • GET OUT NOW OR I'LL SHOOT!!!

That *should* take care of most nightime burglary situations you find yourself in.

If you have to exit your safe room, you don't use the light to "search." You use the light simply to identify the threat before you shoot.

You don't have to point your gun directly at the threat to illuminate it, you splash light off the ceiling, floor or wall.

I'm also equipped with a hand carry Surefire, which if my gun mounted light fails and I need to shoot the target, then I retract it to my center neck as I bring the gun up to fire from a one-handed SUL type carry, either extending my firing arm or bringing it back to fire from a retention position.

Cheers!
Shawn Dodson is offline  
Old October 15, 2008, 12:01 AM   #14
SWMAGMAN
Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2008
Location: NW Wisconsin
Posts: 45
My number 1 problem with a weapon-mounted light is the obvious - when you find out it is your teenage son (or any other innocent) trying to sneak in (who hasn't) late, you'll find that when you made the ID you had your weapon trained directly on him...like using a riflescope to identify a target (instead of binoculars). Never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot!
SWMAGMAN is offline  
Old October 15, 2008, 12:52 AM   #15
Bogie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 5, 2000
Location: Job hunting on the road...
Posts: 3,827
To properly clean a room, you need to first toss in a grenade.

Or...

Call the police, and wait, while shooting anything that emerges from the room.
__________________
Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist.

And making the world's greatest bottle openers!
Bogie is offline  
Old October 15, 2008, 01:29 AM   #16
fivepaknh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 7, 2001
Location: Nashua, New Hampshire
Posts: 611
The kids are in a different part of the house. Getting to them is priority. Though I do agree a verbal challenge and an announcement of a gun and cops on the way should fix most problems.
fivepaknh is offline  
Old October 15, 2008, 11:47 AM   #17
mkg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2008
Location: NE TN
Posts: 188
I have a two story split plan home a 17 year old and an attached Mother-in-law suite ( complete with mother and father-in-law ) so barracading in the master isn't going to work.
Personally , I feel that a dog is great first deterent.

First, it's much easier for the BG to go to a house that has no dog should your home have been "cased" by a BG
Second, My dogs bark at anything out of the ordinary...ie me with a hat or sunglasses on. If a BG hears a dog barking he's going to know you've been alerted . Plus the BG dosen't want to get bit.
Third, Should the BG persist in entering the house I know that he is there for a purpose. Not a random act. I also have a big clue as to his mentality and what he prepared to do, at that point I have a real good idea what is going ot happen . Yes, I have a 17 year old that on occation misses curfew. If she comes home late the dog barks BUT the next thing I hear is " MOLLY sshhhh!"

I Know a dog is not an option for everyone ( allergies, apartments etc .. ) but if it is, it is one that you should think about.

Mike
mkg is offline  
Old October 15, 2008, 01:00 PM   #18
Threefeathers
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 392
One of the things that Mas Ayoob drilled into us is home defense. It is basically, get your family to a safe room, stay put, call the police and give them a constant rundown.
Do NOT try to clear the house yourself, you will walk into an ambush. Once you are dead so is your family.
If you take the house drill at Gunsite and Thunder Ranch you'll see that the lone homeowner trying to clear the house never lives. But the homeowner who makes the BG come to him nearly always lives.

Once you phone the police the BG must make quick decisions, make them do it, not you.
Threefeathers is offline  
Old October 15, 2008, 01:34 PM   #19
New_Pollution1086
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2007
Location: WC - CA
Posts: 680
When I buy a house I plan on setting up a switch inside my bedroom that turns every light on in the house, then comes the verbal announcement.

the surprise of the lights as well as the verbal and the always useful shotgun rack should help to disorient him.

T
__________________
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm, and it was good"
"Aim Big miss Big, Aim small Miss small"
"Don't rush the monkey and you'll see a better show."
- T. Boone Pickens
New_Pollution1086 is offline  
Old October 15, 2008, 01:43 PM   #20
M1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
Quote:
My number 1 problem with a weapon-mounted light is the obvious - when you find out it is your teenage son (or any other innocent) trying to sneak in (who hasn't) late, you'll find that when you made the ID you had your weapon trained directly on him
Critics of weapon-mounted lights always say this. But you don't have to use the light that way.

Surefires are bright enough that you don't have to have your gun with mounted light pointed directly at a perp to ID him. Low ready will bounce more than enough light off the floor to light up all but the largest rooms. High ready will bounce more than enough light off the ceiling to light up all the but the largest rooms. And that way you can have the phone on your support hand.

The main downside that I see weapon-mounted lights is the cost. Those weapon-mounted surefires sure are pricey.

If you can do it at your range, turn out the lights and practice firing your pistol while holding your flashlight. There are quite a few different flashlight techniques. For me, a modified Harries works the best. YMMV.

For those that suggest using the old FBI method (support hand holds the light off to the side or up high), I suggest that you actually try shooting this way, particularly from a barricade. Setup a short IDPA/IPSC stage and have someone time and score you. I think you'll find a couple things: 1) low-light shooting is hard, 2) low-light shooting using the FBI method is really hard.

Finally, I'm with the hide in the safe room folks.
M1911 is offline  
Old October 15, 2008, 04:02 PM   #21
rogertc1
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2004
Location: Maquoketa
Posts: 1,335
A good dog over 50 lbs is the best detterent for crooks trying to burglarize and the pup could be your best friend too.
rogertc1 is offline  
Old October 15, 2008, 04:18 PM   #22
The Canuck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 13, 2006
Location: Calgary Alberta, Canada
Posts: 307
Okay, off the top. I have been trained to clear houses. Will I do it without at least three buddies who are good at it? Oh heck no. Will I do it solo if I can get away with not doing it? Absolutely not.

When you go room-room in a clearing exercise you are entering into an aggressor/defender situation. Sure its your home, but when you are going room to room you are the one who is aggressing. You are moving and making noise all the while the person you are trying to clear out will most likely stay static and listen and watch. When he sees you in the poor light, he will be better able to engage you before you will see and engage him. Ask any LEO how they feel about house clearing. These guys, who have the gear and the buddies will tell you one thing. "IT SUCKS".

If you can help it, do not clear the place, get to a safe room (panic room, whatever) and secure it. Then you become the defender and they become the aggressor, moving around and making noise and setting themselves up for the fall... then call the law and hold 'em of until help arrives.
__________________
"If you put one in the snot locker, it doesn't matter what calibre it is".
The Canuck is offline  
Old October 15, 2008, 04:28 PM   #23
Slopemeno
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 19, 2007
Posts: 2,351
Lets see...youre going to clear your house because you think someones there, but youre not going to be having your gun pointed where youre looking? Really?

And again, a weapon light isn't an either-or question. There's no reason why you cant have a light in one hand and your gun in the other. The sudden bright light in the badguys eyes, with one hand free to manipulate doorknobs, switches, and phones is just a better way to go.

If you think someone is there- call 911. Cover the "fatal-funnel" to seperate you from them. Sit tight.
Slopemeno is offline  
Old October 15, 2008, 04:29 PM   #24
mavracer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2008
Location: midwest
Posts: 3,036
Quote:
A good dog over 50 lbs is the best detterent for crooks trying to burglarize and the pup could be your best friend too.
or in my case 4
__________________
rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6
Quote:
originally posted my Mike Irwin
My handguns are are for one purpose only, though...
The starter gun on the "Fat man's mad dash tactical retreat."
mavracer is offline  
Old October 15, 2008, 05:06 PM   #25
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
Just out of curiousity how many of you keep a gun light attached to your pistols' rail? I used to, but then I thought "if I have to clear my house...and I have a light right on the tip of my gun and the BG has a gun and he see's that light he basically has to shoot at the light and has a good chance of taking off
The purpose of a light is not to navigate your way along during house clearing--or any other time.

It's to illuminate the target an INSTANT BEFORE you make the decision to shoot. Such a light can be shined at the floor or bounced off the ceiling in order to determine if you're dealing with friend or foe so you won't end up pointing a gun at one of your kids, or Uncle Harry raiding the refridgerator. A room, or hallway, can be illuminated in this manner with enough light to check things out--from behind cover.

The light can be used in a number of different ways, but house clearing with the light turned on isn't one of them. And of course, it can be used to shine in the eyes of a known hostile target so you can see your sights. Boy can you see your sights!



This is basic stuff, I don't claim to be an expert. I'd recommend a video on the subject, like the one Clint Smith puts out, and hands on training as well.

I'd also recommend his tape on house clearing, which he doesn't advocate doing. Perhaps, the main value of the tape is to impress upon you the extreme danger involved, but it has great info in case you abosolutely have to.

My only light, at least at this point, is on my 870 for the purpose of positive ID before using deadly force.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13446 seconds with 7 queries