Just In For FN 5.7 Fans

[DPris]

Fiocchi has partnered with FNH to produce 5.7x28mm ammo for the US market under the FN brand.
Fiocchi Of America will start producing SS196 SR and SS197 SR this month at its plant in Ozark, Missouri.
For the current handguns & "upcoming PS 90 semi-automatic carbine".
Denis

[OBIWAN]

The bad news............

In the latest issue of SWAT they reported that only the neutered round that only reaches approx 1650 f.p.s. will be available to civillians

[DPris]

I personally don't believe the gun will ever go far on the regular civilian market, just letting those who see some use for it know.
Denis

[tulsamal]

I personally don't believe the gun will ever go far on the regular civilian market

Of course that's the same thing I read over and over again when the .40 S&W was introduced. The 9mm people saw things they didn't like. The .45 people did the same. It was a compromise that would never satisfy anybody. But then somehow it seemed like every police department in the country adopted the round and a heck of a lot of civilians as well.

You could be right. You could be wrong. I've learned not to be too quick to rush to judgement. Sometimes I get surprised. Something like a Dirty Harry movie could happen but with a 5.7. Suddenly everybody would want one. Even attempts to ban particular guns usually leads to a run on them.

Gregg

[IndianaDean]

I looked at a couple at the last show here in Indy. They look great. I'd love to have one, but availability and price of ammo changed my mind. I also read the 196 that will be available is not armor piercing, and is not that much more powerful than a .22.

Does anyone have more information on this?

[DPris]

Tulsa,
I wasn't intending to get into a discussion on the relative merits of the caliber, just passing on a press release that came in today for those who see some use for the package.
If you like the gun & caliber, great.
I sent an email asking if either of those two rounds was a hollowpoint for the civilian market, the answer later was no HP for the civilian market.
Not sure what their definition of "sporting round" is, but that's what they're calling the stuff.
My personal opinion is the pistol has limited applications for either hunting or self-defense with the high-priced ammo that'll be available. But, I'm in no way trying to talk anybody out of getting one.
Denis

[MasterPieceArms.com]

FN can't come close to keeping up with demand for the pistol or the ammo (which is, I'm sure why they inked this deal). Since the pistols are backordered to the moon and the profit potential on this expensive gun is incredible, I am amazed at how gutless the other gun companies are. They could have cashed in big time by now, either by making the ammo (in Remington and Winchester's case) or their own 5.7 pistol. The gun and the round is guaranteed to not be a fad because it's all over the law enforcement market, thus making it desirable by the serfs.

It's a high pressure round, but that's why you employ engineers. I suspect that the real reason some other gun company hasn't cashed in and made one for this caliber is that the culture at the big gunmakers is that it's not good for future government contracts if you appear too "pro citizen." Helping regular folk buy a gun in a caliber that was made for, and is still mostly in the hands of government agents, could be seen as helping the "great unwashed."

[DPris]

MPA,
Your world must be very interesting for you.
The guns are not back ordered to the moon, there's really relatively little demand for them, and that's why the major ammomakers are not jumping on the bandwagon. It is not popular in law enforcement circles, very likely never will be for a number of reasons, and there's about zero incentive (or profit) for other gunmakers to design their own pistols for this proprietary caliber.
Appearing "too pro citizen" is not good for future government contracts? On your planet, possibly....
Denis

[gordo b.]

I think someone is missing the Euroscam $$ by not marketting a 5.7 barrel for all those S&W Sigmas. Maybe with a .22Win Rimfire Magnum conversion so you could have the same power with cheaper ammo!

[MasterPieceArms.com]

MPA,
Your world must be very interesting for you.

Jeez, enough already. You can't say something without making a veiled personal attack at someone?

On your planet, possibly.

Do you just sit and think of ways to mix the topic with an insult because you don't want people to focus on your lack of an accurate point?

Why can't you disagree with someone without attacking them personally?

I defy you to stand behind and justify your personal attacks "Dpris."



Anyway, now that the grade school behavior has been dealt with, the 5.7 most certainly IS backordered like crazy. Obviously, if you find a dealer who has one or two, this would not be the case, but if you go to one of the few dealers who regularly stock them, if they don't already have one, they probably have a list and the wait efor the next shipment is not like ordering a Ruger. Just for the fun of it, I chcked around for availability several times in the last 6 months, and every time, neither any dealer OR their distributor had one or knew when one might become available.

[utaherrn]

come to Utah, every dealer I frequent has at least one pistol in stock and ammo is available.

Perhaps it's a regional thing? Whatever. They're here, but they're not cheap.

I like the pistol, looks like fun. I like the carbine better, but not the price. I'll wait till I find one used, or until DPris gets one for an article and calls me to help do the eval (one can dream, no?)

[OBIWAN]

"The pistol is backordered to the moon"

But did everyone run out and buy it so they could get to shoot the civillian ammo that is not armor piercing or as flat shooting? ( their two claims to fame)

Velocity was its major selling point and they have fixed that for Joe average

All it has going for it now is capacity

But I can put a +2 adapter on my G17 mags and have a more effective weapon that holds one less round

[OBIWAN]

according to SWAT the civillian round will be around 1650 FPS while all the HOT ammo is over 2,000 FPS

[tulsamal]

according to SWAT the civillian round will be around 1650 FPS while all the HOT ammo is over 2,000 FPS

I don't see why that should be a show stopper. A set of reloading dies and some brass and I should be able to do anything the factory can do. I rarely shoot anything with factory ammo except the guns that use military surplus. And I don't think we would be seeing any of that in 5.7mm even if the government didn't care!

I don't necessarily "like" the gun or cartridge. I don't own one. Haven't even shot one. But I do have a tendency to like rounds like 7.62x25 Tok so I think some experimentation with the high velocity small-bore handguns could be interesting.

Gregg

[DPris]

MPA,
Without going into "personal attacks", I was attempting to point out I do disagree with your statements.
The fact that dealers aren't getting or selling the guns doesn't necessarily mean they're "back ordered to the moon", it might just possibly mean that there's so little demand that the guns aren't in the pipeline in great numbers. Distributors will stock and distribute what they either know they can sell, or think they can sell subject to discovering what doesn't actually sell.
The 5.7 & pistol were designed for LE & Military, and the gun & caliber just haven't really taken off like FN had hoped. The factory is not staying up nights to meet the demand.
The combination has little interest for general LE use because it's a tiny round for a defensive handgun (in a land where bigger bore is traditionally better bore), it's a largely unproven platform (in terms of time & use in the field), and in an environment where budgets rule few departments would spend the money for relatively expensive ammo for training and qualification without a clear (and I mean major) gain in performance that the rounds have not demonstrated.
I would be amazed to find a single American police department issuing the gun for general duty use. I could be wrong, and if you can produce one I'll be happy to acknowledge it here. Even if you do, I'll reserve the right to say that hardly means it's "all over the law enforcement market".
There are shooters among us who do find something about the caliber or gun interesting, whether from a perceived benefit in some aspect of their personal use, or from the "something different" perspective, and that's absolutely fine.
If you like the gun & caliber, by all means get it & shoot it. There are lots of guns I personally have no interest in, but that doesn't in itself mean they're junk. If they keep on selling in high enough volume to keep the maker making them, that means they have some utility or appeal for others, and I don't knock that in the slightest.
Also as mentioned, the fact that other makers aren't working weekends to cash in on this revenue bonanza has nothing to do with jeopardizing future government contracts by appearing "too pro citizen". The caliber comes with baggage, both internal and external, and so far the major American pistol & ammo companies have seen very little to indicate that there'd be sufficient return on the R&D to justify developing much of their own. The fact that FNH went to Fiocchi, a maker famous for its willingness to keep on producing ammunition in obscure calibers outside the mainstream market, should tell you something.
I don't fault FN for coming up with the gun or caliber, competition in the industry is fierce and military contracts mean huge money. It's an interesting idea, I just don't think it's going very far in that gun. As a full-auto round for military or specialized LE use, it has some application.
There's big money (ask Gaston) in the LE market, too. If this combo really was all over the cop market, believe me you'd see at least three of the American ammo makers falling all over themselves to produce product for it.
Same with holster makers.

Utah,
Just can't build up much interest in covering one, although a carbine might have a little more appeal.

Tulsa,
There's always the fun of experimenting at home, but here again I'm not sure there'll be a wide variety of bullet weights & styles available to play with. Ammo & bullet makers usually take a good look at sales & inside "buzz" before they decide to gamble on a new caliber (Hornady is probably one of the more adventurous), and the current climate after a bad year is not conducive to much gambling.

But, again, if anybody likes the gun, buy it & enjoy it.

Denis

[p99guy]

This is what what Fiocci USA is going to be building:
SS196SR, 40gr Hornady V-Max@1650fps from pistol, 1940fps from the PS90
SS197SR, 40gr Hornady V-Max@2000fps from pistol, unknown from carbine but
being tested in the next couple of weeks

SS195LF, 28gr HP @2050 from pistol, 2413fps from PS90 is still going to be made in Belguim and shipped over...the round is the same as the SS192 except it has a lead free primer

So there is 3 types of ammunition so far going to be availible for civy shooters, and handloaders are having quite good luck in load development for this round and it appears to not be loaded to its full potential. Look for loads optimized for the longer rifle barrels to surface in the future as well.

A full review of the PS90 by David Fortier is upcoming in the Jan 20th Issue of Shotgun News, due out on the newsstands Jan 17th and will have the PS90 as the cover gun.

Accuracy was excellent on the PS90!
A NRA 200 yard High Power target works perfectly at 100 yards with the circle dot reticle. Basically it ends up just like using a Match rifle's front aperture sight.

SS196 shot into around 1.5 inches @100yds(don't have my notes in front of me)
with SS195 averaging around 2.25 inches for four five shot groups@100yds....


The weapons availible for this cartridge, or soon to be availible:

FN Five Seven pistol
FN PS90 carbine
FN 5.7 Patrol Bolt Rifle, uses the 10/20 shot five seven pistol magazines.

Cooper M21 bolt action rifle

Rhineland Arms AR57..uses the 50 shot mags of the FN P90
Rhineland Arms 5.7 carbine...uses FN Five Seven pistol mags

the AR57





Photo by Emily K. Fortier, courtesy of Shotgun News

Here is what the box looks like(and yes thats dust on the rubber buttplate)

and heres the box the full auto P90 comes in

[p99guy]

Ya'll see in Guns & Ammo, the announcement that Hornady is now going to start loading HK 4.6x30mm? I would like to hear the story on that.

[Tamerlane]

Back in the day, there were folks whining about replacing the manly .45-70 with the .30-40 Krag/.30 Springfield. (My Gosh! Five shots! Think of all the wasted ammo!) Later, they complained about replacing the Garand M1D with the M14.

Of course, there was a real crescendo of whining when the M-16 came along, and the dumb-butt Army did not help by specing the wrong powder despite Gene Stoner's objections. The only people complaining more about the M-16 than the GIs and the Marines were the commies who got shot with 'em.

If somebody b****es about the 5 7, ask 'em "Why don't you replace that candy-butt .45 ACP with a manly .58 Webley (yes, it was a pistol), and why don't you replace that candy-butt M-14 with a manly .45-70 trapdoor Springfield. Better yet, why not a .50-90 Winchester."

About 100 years ago my grandaddy owned a .45 LC and a .32-20, and he was mucking around places that were not even states yet. The .32-20 was the carry.

Ever since McArthur, et al, got the crap scared out of em by a Philippino tribesman, everybody wants a pistol that shoots cinderblocks...almost everybody.

Bullets that look like Idaho potatoes are for the cowboy and Indian movies.

Bullets for the modern battlefield, personal defense and real operators...look like...

V-2 rockets.

5 7, When you care to send the very best!

Tamerlane

[ShipWreck]

Interesting to read this thread now that the speculation is over and the ammo and gun has been out a while....

[HappyGunner]

After the price of WWB went up at Walmart. I switched to Fiocchi Ammos and am very happy with quality of ammo. and the cleaning burning of their powder.

[Mike P. Wagner]

Your world must be very interesting for you..., on your planet

On my planet, gratuitous insults weaken the argument - they never enhance it.

I would be amazed to find a single American police department issuing the gun for general duty use.

I don't want to get in the middle of yet another stupid caliber war.

I will note that I have seen a number of references to the fact the the Davidson, NC police department are issuing the gun.

That really makes me curious. As far as I know, Davidson is a tiny, pretty little town that is the home of Davidson College - a small quasi-Ivy League school. Why do they need this weapon? Frat boys wearing armor?

Mike

[ShipWreck]

Mike - I dragged this thread up from the depths - remember - its kinda dated. I took know many depts using the 5.7 - but this was back when the PS90 just started to come out - so many civilians didn't know much about it.

[HappyGunner]

Yeah the PS90 http://www.fnhusa.com/products/firea...009&gid=FNG006

If I can't have a HKSL8 the FN PS90 looks really good to me.

[Sturmgewehre]

I have very high hopes for the AR57 upper. I can not wait to get my hands on one for my M16.

Expect to see pics, video and a full review when that puppy hits the street!

[ShipWreck]

If I can't have a HKSL8 the FN PS90 looks really good to me

Well, I love mine