115- vs. 124-gr. 9x19?

jimmy · August 20, 2005, 11:04 PM

This something I never really thought about before.

Winchester, S&B, and other ammo manufacturers produce 9x19 in both 115-and 124-grain FMJ. Similarly, I guess, Fiocchi offers a 115- and 123-gr. FMJ. Apart from the difference in bullet weight, how do the 115 gr. and 124-gr. rounds differ from each other? When is one preferred over the other?

As an example, I've heard that the CZ-75 is developed around the 124-gr. cartridge, or at any rate I notice this is the ammo specified on the test targets supplied with this gun. But what difference does it cause to shoot 115-gr. 9x19 in the CZ or other pistols?

Te Anau · August 21, 2005, 10:43 AM

Ive never seen any difference in my guns between the two.A friend shoots 124 grain because he likes the thought of the extra weight.Its not like the difference between 55gr and 62gr in .223 which can make a big difference depending on your rifle.

CarbineCaleb · August 21, 2005, 12:46 PM

For defense use, at least, the 115gr tends to have insufficient penetration (see the famed FBI Miami situation for an example, if I recall). The 124gr is better, and the 147gr better yet.

topspin43 · August 21, 2005, 02:27 PM

In my Beretta... 147 gr. is dead on where I aim. 124 tends to be a little low(inch or two) ... 115 tends to be 7" low at 50 feet! Muzzle kick? Longer in the chamber? Who knows or cares... just know results.

Para Bellum · August 21, 2005, 02:47 PM

Here in Austria (Home of Steyr, Hirtenberger, Swarovski and Glock), Police uses 93grs 9x19 bullets. And the possibly best 9x19 round I know, the EMB is also only a 93grs bullet with perfect performance data. Check out this link.

I want to make sure about the EMB-Ammo and will test it soon. I'll post the results here...

147 Grain · August 21, 2005, 06:21 PM

Hard to beat the Winchester Ranger T's in 147-gr. See my signature for example.

Lou22 · August 22, 2005, 02:47 PM

For most self-defense loads I'd recommend the 124gr or 127gr for decent penetration. The exception is the Ranger 115gr +P+ I carry in my PM9. This is the Illinois State Police load and was considered a very good manstopper. The bullet is a standard hollowpoint pushed to 1335fps at the barrel.

Lou

147 Grain · August 22, 2005, 03:28 PM

I agree that 124-gr. and 127-gr. loads are good. Here's some data from Winchester that should help with your decision and is why I selected 147 Grain as my username:

Ranger T Tests comparing 9mm 124-gr. +P (RA9124TP) @ 1,180 fps / 127-gr. +P+ (RA9TA) @ 1,250 fps / 147-gr. (RA9T) @ 990 fps, and 357 Sig 125-gr. (RA357SIGT) @ 1,350 fps:

Gelatin
9mm: 124-gr. = 12.2 & .70
9mm: 127-gr. = 12.3 & .64
9mm: 147-gr. = 13.9 & .65
357Sig 125gr. = 10.9 & .63

4-Ply Denim
9mm: 124-gr. = 13.9 & .67
9mm: 127-gr. = 12.5 & .68
9mm: 147-gr. = 14.5 & .66
357Sig 125gr. = 12.1 & .66

Heavy Cloth
9mm: 124-gr. = 13.3 & .68
9mm: 127-gr. = 12.2 & .68
9mm: 147-gr. = 14.0 & .66
357Sig 125gr. = 10.7 & .69

Source: Winchester's 2005 LE Catalog (page 19).

Para Bellum · August 22, 2005, 03:36 PM

If I carry 124 grainers it's federal's EFMJ (LEO-site link).
Here's a wetpack-test of this ammo (link).

Charles S · August 22, 2005, 04:01 PM

To answer your question quite frankly, there is very little difference between the two loads. As far a accuracy each gun may or may not have a load it likes better. My BHP likes the 124, my 6906 likes the 115, my Sig 228 will shoot either equally well as will my Khar. A marginal hit in self defense with a 115 or a 124 is still a marginal hit, a good hit with either is still a good hit. There is a chance a situation will arise where one load can outperform the other, but I think that realistically, unless you are an operator the chances are negligible, as shooters we all like to banter around which load is best. Honestly I think any modern reliable hollow point will serve you well.

Off soap box.

The 127 Ranger really is an awesome load. I think the 124 +P+ Hydrashock is probably very good also. I am currently shooting Federal 115 Hollow points in my Khar.

Charles

Jkwas · August 22, 2005, 04:22 PM

In my Ruger P89, The 115's and 124's hit the same place. I use 115's for target, and 124's for social work. Sounds like it really depends on the gun.

Shooter 973 · August 22, 2005, 08:29 PM

9 gr. of bullet weight is not going to make a dimes worth of differance in any thing you shoot.

shooter429 · August 23, 2005, 01:06 PM

to notice, in most cases. It is interesting that some people have an almost religious affinity for a certain weight bullet, but fail to think about the big picture. For example, two bullets of the same weight might have far more impact performance differences than two similar bullets of similar design and slightly different weights. Other things to consider: Barrel length, rifling, porting etc. The difference between a 124 Gr bullet coming out of a 3" BBL versus a 5" BBL is likely to be far greater (all else being equal) than the difference between a 115 Gr. and a 124 Gr of same manufacturere both coming out of a 3" BBL. For example, a table I have shows Remington loading a 115 Gr bullet at 1,135 fps, while loading the 124 Gr at 1,110 fps at the muzzle. Obviously, the 25 fps difference (at the muzzle) is insignifficant as far as trajectory and energy go at 25 Yards. So who cares!

Bottom line: Select the bullet and load that meets your tactical needs (penetrating intermediate barriers or not), feeds reliably and shoots accuratly in your gun. I think a lot of the hoopla over the specific load is way overblown and not necessary. If you do your job and put either a quality 115 Gr or 124 Gr. 9mm bullet in the "boiler room" of the bad guy, you will win (though in reality it might take more than 1 hit to anchor him). If you miss, it does not matter what magic bullet/cartridge you sent downrange-you lose.

Shooter429

Harley Quinn · August 30, 2005, 01:00 PM

Hi,

The heavier the bullet, the more recoil. The heavier the bullet the slower the bullet. I believe if you are shooting match you would want to go with the 147.

If just plinking and not a very good shot in the first place 115s are fine.
The lighter the bullet the less penetration so if in your own house and worried about going through walls the lighter the better and faster as a general rule.
Go with a lite weight hollow point. Most shootings are within 7Yds so 115s are the way to go just for economy sake.

Harley

NRAhab · August 30, 2005, 01:37 PM

Quote:

The lighter the bullet the less penetration

This isn't entirely true, as penetration has more to do with velocity than anything.

Harley Quinn · August 30, 2005, 09:11 PM

Hi NRAhab,

Yes you are correct, I have actually shot through steel with a very lite bullet and high velocity. (but it is the velocity and friction that do the job) But as a general rule the lighter the bullet the less penetration, unless you are shooting a stainless steel projectile. I should have been more specific with the statement. (17cal and the hydrostatic shock tests proved that).

When making up the highly destructable HPs penetration is not the main goal.
The bullets get lighter when making them hollow point or else they get longer.
I believe the longer the bullet "under most circumstances in the same configuration ie calibur" the better the accuracy.

So I guess I would go for the 147 HP in the 9mm in a 6" barrel. So much scientific stuff these days it is really hard to get it all straight.

Harley

Webleymkv · August 31, 2005, 07:52 PM

As a general rule, heavier bullets are usually more accurate than lighter ones. This is most likely because a heavier bullet necessitates a longer bullet that engages more rifling. As to effectiveness of hollowpoints, I tend to shy away from 145-147 grn loads. The 9mm needs velocity to do its work and I find the 125grn loads offer the best balance of expasion and penetration. If you want heavy bullets, get a .40 or .45.

Harley Quinn · September 1, 2005, 09:03 AM

Hi Webleymkv,

I have all of the mentioned calibur pistols. Over the years I have gravitated to shooting the 9mm 17L Glock.

Harley

BUSTER51 · September 1, 2005, 11:17 AM

Try the 124 cci gold dot +p ,one of the best I have tryed.

cje1980 · September 1, 2005, 09:09 PM

124 and 147 grain is the way to go for personal defense so that it offers optimum penetration. The excellent 147gr Winchester Ranger is pretty much hard to beat and will beat most of the other calibers in performance. It expands to about .65 through just about any barrier you can throw at it. It also penetrates sufficiently and maintaints weight after passing through tough barriers such as steel and glass. Only the .40 Ranger fared as well. Not even many .45 loads did as well as this "wimpy" 9mm load. 115 gr. is good for cheap plinking but not for SD purposes. Speer GD is pretty good in 115gr. It penetrates about 12" and expands to .67 and since it's bonded it holds together well after hitting bone and other obstacles.

ATW525 · September 1, 2005, 09:34 PM

I only use FMJ for the range, in which case it doesn't make a difference... I personally like WWB 115 grain, just because they're cheap.

For defense only 147 grain will do for me, and my choice is the Speer Gold Dot. 147 grain loadings generally give good ballistics without resorting to +P and +P+ pressures.

Webleymkv · September 1, 2005, 10:39 PM

Several manufacturers make 125 grn FMJ's. These are usually called "NATO Spec." loads and exhibit exceptional accuracy in a number of pistols.CZ's in particular seem to like 125grn loads. While they are more expensive than 115grn target loads, they're still cheaper than premium hollowpoints and offer the ability to practice with the same bullet weight as your carry ammunition.

shooter429 · September 2, 2005, 12:03 PM

NRAhab, you are right about the fact that there are exceptions to the rule of thumb that lighter bullets tend to penetrate less. Of course, I was speaking in general terms, relating to the 9mm as a civi sidearm. I guess if we wanted to get technical, we would have to look at sectional density, weight, jacket thickness, lead hardness, or in the case of monolithic solids, alloys, velocity, meplate/BC and for all I know, lunar phases (JK)

Thanks for the clarification.

Shooter429

MikeOrick · September 3, 2005, 01:37 PM

Through denim into gel from G17/P226:

115 GD 17/.52
115 +P+ GD 15.9/.53
124 GD 16.6/.51
124 +P GD 15.9/.56
147 GD 16.9/.54

147 Grain · September 3, 2005, 01:53 PM

If you consider Double Tap's 9mm 147-gr. Gold Dot load at @1,135 fps in a Glock 17, penetration through denim covered gel will be about 15.4" & .67". Double Tap basically is getting 124-gr. velocity out of a 147-gr. load at lower pressures than +P ammo, using specially blended cooler burning powders that are not commercially available.

In comparison:

* Ranger T 147-gr. (RA9T) @ 990 fps = 14.5" & .66"
* Speer's 147-gr. Gold Dot = 16.9" & .54" (not much expansion, but too much penetration).

Steve

P.S. FYI Only:

Recommend you considerDouble Tap for your 9mm self defense needs.

Double Tap 9mm 147-gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1,135 fps in Glock 17

Double Tap 9mm 124-gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1,310 fps in Glock 17

Double Tap 9mm 115-gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1,415 fps in Glock 17

August 20, 2005, 11:04 PM	#1
jimmy Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 1999 Location: Texas Posts: 1,796	115- vs. 124-gr. 9x19? This something I never really thought about before. Winchester, S&B, and other ammo manufacturers produce 9x19 in both 115-and 124-grain FMJ. Similarly, I guess, Fiocchi offers a 115- and 123-gr. FMJ. Apart from the difference in bullet weight, how do the 115 gr. and 124-gr. rounds differ from each other? When is one preferred over the other? As an example, I've heard that the CZ-75 is developed around the 124-gr. cartridge, or at any rate I notice this is the ammo specified on the test targets supplied with this gun. But what difference does it cause to shoot 115-gr. 9x19 in the CZ or other pistols?

August 21, 2005, 02:27 PM	#4
topspin43 Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2005 Location: South Florida Posts: 761	See how they shoot... In my Beretta... 147 gr. is dead on where I aim. 124 tends to be a little low(inch or two) ... 115 tends to be 7" low at 50 feet! Muzzle kick? Longer in the chamber? Who knows or cares... just know results. __________________ Be careful out there.

August 21, 2005, 02:47 PM	#5
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,894	93 grs even Here in Austria (Home of Steyr, Hirtenberger, Swarovski and Glock), Police uses 93grs 9x19 bullets. And the possibly best 9x19 round I know, the EMB is also only a 93grs bullet with perfect performance data. Check out this link. I want to make sure about the EMB-Ammo and will test it soon. I'll post the results here... __________________ Si vis pacem - para bellum If you want peace - prepare for war

August 22, 2005, 03:36 PM	#9
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,894	If 124 grs: Federal EFMJ If I carry 124 grainers it's federal's EFMJ (LEO-site link). Here's a wetpack-test of this ammo (link). __________________ Si vis pacem - para bellum If you want peace - prepare for war

August 22, 2005, 08:29 PM	#12
Shooter 973 Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2001 Location: Home town of John M. Browning, Utah Posts: 499	115-vs.124 gr, 9x19...... 9 gr. of bullet weight is not going to make a dimes worth of differance in any thing you shoot.

August 21, 2005, 10:43 AM	#2
Te Anau Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2004 Location: Somewhere south of the No Posts: 3,824	Ive never seen any difference in my guns between the two.A friend shoots 124 grain because he likes the thought of the extra weight.Its not like the difference between 55gr and 62gr in .223 which can make a big difference depending on your rifle.

August 21, 2005, 12:46 PM	#3
CarbineCaleb Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2004 Posts: 2,745	For defense use, at least, the 115gr tends to have insufficient penetration (see the famed FBI Miami situation for an example, if I recall). The 124gr is better, and the 147gr better yet.

August 21, 2005, 06:21 PM	#6
147 Grain Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2005 Posts: 281	Hard to beat the Winchester Ranger T's in 147-gr. See my signature for example.

August 22, 2005, 02:47 PM	#7
Lou22 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2005 Location: Oakland County, Michigan Posts: 349	For most self-defense loads I'd recommend the 124gr or 127gr for decent penetration. The exception is the Ranger 115gr +P+ I carry in my PM9. This is the Illinois State Police load and was considered a very good manstopper. The bullet is a standard hollowpoint pushed to 1335fps at the barrel. Lou

August 22, 2005, 03:28 PM	#8
147 Grain Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2005 Posts: 281	I agree that 124-gr. and 127-gr. loads are good. Here's some data from Winchester that should help with your decision and is why I selected 147 Grain as my username: Ranger T Tests comparing 9mm 124-gr. +P (RA9124TP) @ 1,180 fps / 127-gr. +P+ (RA9TA) @ 1,250 fps / 147-gr. (RA9T) @ 990 fps, and 357 Sig 125-gr. (RA357SIGT) @ 1,350 fps: Gelatin 9mm: 124-gr. = 12.2 & .70 9mm: 127-gr. = 12.3 & .64 9mm: 147-gr. = 13.9 & .65 357Sig 125gr. = 10.9 & .63 4-Ply Denim 9mm: 124-gr. = 13.9 & .67 9mm: 127-gr. = 12.5 & .68 9mm: 147-gr. = 14.5 & .66 357Sig 125gr. = 12.1 & .66 Heavy Cloth 9mm: 124-gr. = 13.3 & .68 9mm: 127-gr. = 12.2 & .68 9mm: 147-gr. = 14.0 & .66 357Sig 125gr. = 10.7 & .69 Source: Winchester's 2005 LE Catalog (page 19).

August 22, 2005, 04:01 PM	#10
Charles S Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2002 Location: North East Texas Posts: 950	To answer your question quite frankly, there is very little difference between the two loads. As far a accuracy each gun may or may not have a load it likes better. My BHP likes the 124, my 6906 likes the 115, my Sig 228 will shoot either equally well as will my Khar. A marginal hit in self defense with a 115 or a 124 is still a marginal hit, a good hit with either is still a good hit. There is a chance a situation will arise where one load can outperform the other, but I think that realistically, unless you are an operator the chances are negligible, as shooters we all like to banter around which load is best. Honestly I think any modern reliable hollow point will serve you well. Off soap box. The 127 Ranger really is an awesome load. I think the 124 +P+ Hydrashock is probably very good also. I am currently shooting Federal 115 Hollow points in my Khar. Charles

August 22, 2005, 04:22 PM	#11
Jkwas Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Mouth of the Rat, Florida Posts: 1,778	In my Ruger P89, The 115's and 124's hit the same place. I use 115's for target, and 124's for social work. Sounds like it really depends on the gun.

August 23, 2005, 01:06 PM	#13
shooter429 Junior member Join Date: July 21, 2005 Location: Washington Posts: 190	Not enough difference to notice, in most cases. It is interesting that some people have an almost religious affinity for a certain weight bullet, but fail to think about the big picture. For example, two bullets of the same weight might have far more impact performance differences than two similar bullets of similar design and slightly different weights. Other things to consider: Barrel length, rifling, porting etc. The difference between a 124 Gr bullet coming out of a 3" BBL versus a 5" BBL is likely to be far greater (all else being equal) than the difference between a 115 Gr. and a 124 Gr of same manufacturere both coming out of a 3" BBL. For example, a table I have shows Remington loading a 115 Gr bullet at 1,135 fps, while loading the 124 Gr at 1,110 fps at the muzzle. Obviously, the 25 fps difference (at the muzzle) is insignifficant as far as trajectory and energy go at 25 Yards. So who cares! Bottom line: Select the bullet and load that meets your tactical needs (penetrating intermediate barriers or not), feeds reliably and shoots accuratly in your gun. I think a lot of the hoopla over the specific load is way overblown and not necessary. If you do your job and put either a quality 115 Gr or 124 Gr. 9mm bullet in the "boiler room" of the bad guy, you will win (though in reality it might take more than 1 hit to anchor him). If you miss, it does not matter what magic bullet/cartridge you sent downrange-you lose. Shooter429

August 30, 2005, 01:00 PM	#14
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	Hi, The heavier the bullet, the more recoil. The heavier the bullet the slower the bullet. I believe if you are shooting match you would want to go with the 147. If just plinking and not a very good shot in the first place 115s are fine. The lighter the bullet the less penetration so if in your own house and worried about going through walls the lighter the better and faster as a general rule. Go with a lite weight hollow point. Most shootings are within 7Yds so 115s are the way to go just for economy sake. Harley

August 30, 2005, 09:11 PM	#16
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	Hi NRAhab, Yes you are correct, I have actually shot through steel with a very lite bullet and high velocity. (but it is the velocity and friction that do the job) But as a general rule the lighter the bullet the less penetration, unless you are shooting a stainless steel projectile. I should have been more specific with the statement. (17cal and the hydrostatic shock tests proved that). When making up the highly destructable HPs penetration is not the main goal. The bullets get lighter when making them hollow point or else they get longer. I believe the longer the bullet "under most circumstances in the same configuration ie calibur" the better the accuracy. So I guess I would go for the 147 HP in the 9mm in a 6" barrel. So much scientific stuff these days it is really hard to get it all straight. Harley

August 31, 2005, 07:52 PM	#17
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,610	As a general rule, heavier bullets are usually more accurate than lighter ones. This is most likely because a heavier bullet necessitates a longer bullet that engages more rifling. As to effectiveness of hollowpoints, I tend to shy away from 145-147 grn loads. The 9mm needs velocity to do its work and I find the 125grn loads offer the best balance of expasion and penetration. If you want heavy bullets, get a .40 or .45.

September 1, 2005, 09:03 AM	#18
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	Hi Webleymkv, I have all of the mentioned calibur pistols. Over the years I have gravitated to shooting the 9mm 17L Glock. Harley

September 1, 2005, 11:17 AM	#19
BUSTER51 Junior member Join Date: December 28, 2004 Location: PHOENIX, AZ Posts: 992	Try the 124 cci gold dot +p ,one of the best I have tryed.

September 1, 2005, 09:09 PM	#20
cje1980 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,412	124 and 147 grain is the way to go for personal defense so that it offers optimum penetration. The excellent 147gr Winchester Ranger is pretty much hard to beat and will beat most of the other calibers in performance. It expands to about .65 through just about any barrier you can throw at it. It also penetrates sufficiently and maintaints weight after passing through tough barriers such as steel and glass. Only the .40 Ranger fared as well. Not even many .45 loads did as well as this "wimpy" 9mm load. 115 gr. is good for cheap plinking but not for SD purposes. Speer GD is pretty good in 115gr. It penetrates about 12" and expands to .67 and since it's bonded it holds together well after hitting bone and other obstacles.

September 1, 2005, 09:34 PM	#21
ATW525 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2005 Location: Concord, NH Posts: 2,723	I only use FMJ for the range, in which case it doesn't make a difference... I personally like WWB 115 grain, just because they're cheap. For defense only 147 grain will do for me, and my choice is the Speer Gold Dot. 147 grain loadings generally give good ballistics without resorting to +P and +P+ pressures.

September 1, 2005, 10:39 PM	#22
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,610	Several manufacturers make 125 grn FMJ's. These are usually called "NATO Spec." loads and exhibit exceptional accuracy in a number of pistols.CZ's in particular seem to like 125grn loads. While they are more expensive than 115grn target loads, they're still cheaper than premium hollowpoints and offer the ability to practice with the same bullet weight as your carry ammunition.

September 2, 2005, 12:03 PM	#23
shooter429 Junior member Join Date: July 21, 2005 Location: Washington Posts: 190	Silly me NRAhab, you are right about the fact that there are exceptions to the rule of thumb that lighter bullets tend to penetrate less. Of course, I was speaking in general terms, relating to the 9mm as a civi sidearm. I guess if we wanted to get technical, we would have to look at sectional density, weight, jacket thickness, lead hardness, or in the case of monolithic solids, alloys, velocity, meplate/BC and for all I know, lunar phases (JK) Thanks for the clarification. Shooter429

September 3, 2005, 01:37 PM	#24
MikeOrick Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2005 Posts: 144	Flip a coin Through denim into gel from G17/P226: 115 GD 17/.52 115 +P+ GD 15.9/.53 124 GD 16.6/.51 124 +P GD 15.9/.56 147 GD 16.9/.54

September 3, 2005, 01:53 PM	#25
147 Grain Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2005 Posts: 281	If you consider Double Tap's 9mm 147-gr. Gold Dot load at @1,135 fps in a Glock 17, penetration through denim covered gel will be about 15.4" & .67". Double Tap basically is getting 124-gr. velocity out of a 147-gr. load at lower pressures than +P ammo, using specially blended cooler burning powders that are not commercially available. In comparison: * Ranger T 147-gr. (RA9T) @ 990 fps = 14.5" & .66" * Speer's 147-gr. Gold Dot = 16.9" & .54" (not much expansion, but too much penetration). Steve P.S. FYI Only: Recommend you considerDouble Tap for your 9mm self defense needs. Double Tap 9mm 147-gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1,135 fps in Glock 17 Double Tap 9mm 124-gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1,310 fps in Glock 17 Double Tap 9mm 115-gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1,415 fps in Glock 17