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Old March 14, 2005, 06:30 PM   #1
Para Bellum
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The use of blabla: You fight like you train. And you should train your decisions.

JungleWork started a dynamic thread recently. It was about those who do the talk and those who do the walk...

In this thread "you fight like you train" was repeated and appreciated by many. Many of those then showed animosity for people who talk about what they would do without ever having been in combat situations.

Folks, that's also training. The benefits of physical training are clear: improved and automated handling. Discussing what to do and thinking about it before the situation occurs is nothing but mental training. If you have made up your mind before, you have more option to quickly choose from when the situation occurs. Or better: You have a plan then. Because then you are liekely to fight as you planned.

I deeply respect many of those who I now am probably disagreeing with. Especially JungleWork is a member of this forum whose posts I read with high esteem. But: I rather get patterns to choose from by thinking about a situation than by sheer experience. Otherwise I would have to stop thinking about what I would do before I am in danger. If you take this to the extreme one would have to walk to the gunshop the very moment one needs a gun...

This should become a thread and not a monologue:
1. Why do you guys contemplate your scenarios in advance?
2. Do you actually think it makes sense or is it just the same as "which of the cars I can't afford anyway would I buy if I won the lottery..."
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Old March 14, 2005, 09:37 PM   #2
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Truisms

The "plan" goes out the window at first contact with the enemy. We all think about possible situations, but IRL, hardly anything goes as we preplanned. Fail to plan, plan to fail, is a cute truism, that may work where you have some control. But most life/limb threatening situations aren't very seldom as we have fore saw them and requires that we respond as best we can or have trained for, to the conditions of the immedate moment.
Mind set may be what you are referencing toward?
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Old March 14, 2005, 10:48 PM   #3
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Para Bellum, I agree with you on this 100%. Playing "what if" scenarios in your head is a great learning tool. Do you ever read news reports of crimes and try to figure out ways you might have been able to avoid being a victim in the same situation? IMO, doing what you've suggested in your lead post is just as important as range time.

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Old March 14, 2005, 10:50 PM   #4
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Quote:
The "plan" goes out the window at first contact with the enemy.
True--but it is still better to have a plan than not.

The chaos that results from no plan is generally more severe than the chaos that results from a plan that's not progressing perfectly--or even progressing badly.

Maintaining order during chaos is very difficult--even with a plan. Without a plan it's virtually impossible.

So, plan and train.

Your plan won't go exactly as you wish it to, and some of the skills learned from your training will desert you, but you'll still be better off for having done both.
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Old March 14, 2005, 11:37 PM   #5
Walter
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Quote:
Your plan won't go exactly as you wish it to, and some of the skills learned from your training will desert you, but you'll still be better off for having done both.
I believe this, but I also believe the harder you train, the more of your skills
you will retain when it hits the fan. And every major military operation in
history has been "What If'd" to high heaven, just to eliminate as many
problems as possible before they have a chance to even happen.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I will say the folks I have a problem
understanding are the ones who hear of some "shooting" situation, and proceed to step-by-step detail out what THEY would have done to make the situation turn out better, and how they would have "blown the #%&%$*'s brains out", etc., etc., without considering all the variables that were undoubtedly present at the scene.

20/20 Hindsight is a powerful weapon, and if we could carry it into a
gunfight before the fight starts, we might never lose. But it doesn't work that way. And people who have actually been under the gun sometimes
resent having to hear about how someone who has never heard a shot fired in anger plans to kick ass and take names, when he doesn't even know which
direction the bullets are coming from.

Just my 2cents

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Old March 14, 2005, 11:39 PM   #6
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You can plan your guts out with what if situations if you want to, but the fact remains that they are 'controlled' what ifs, where you set up or imagine what the BG does, and base your plan around how to react to it. You control the BG in that planning, and know exactly what he will do.

The only problem with that, is that no matter how much you plan to react in a certain scenario, the BG never acts like he is 'supposed' to. Now I'm not saying don't plan, but don't rely on a set plan. Train hard, and revert to that training, without thought or plan....
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Old March 14, 2005, 11:57 PM   #7
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Guys,
When I started in LE in 1971 you were considered to be a nut case or to have a "KILLER MENTALITY" in mine and lots of other Police agencies if you thought about or talked about what you would do in certin situations, especially gunfights. They would train you in the academy, but other than that, discussion was verbotten. A few years later, Police Work (brother of Jungle) became enlightened and it became "alright" to discuss situations that might arise. Then the folks like Adams and others were teaching schools and writing books on officer survival and you were looked down upon and thought to be gouche, if you didin't discuss gunfights and what you would do. In the late 70s things began to really heat up in LE with the importers and sellers of pharmaceuticals and them boys was armin' up and they didn't mind pulling the trigger even if a cop was a target. After a few years of that, not only was it considered acceptable to speak of what you might do in a gun battle, it was mandatory.

In the Combat Arms of the US Army (especially the Airborne) it has been looked upon with fondness and God Blessings, to speak of enemies of this country you have you have sent to hell. I believe the Marines also feel the same way. My rememberances of this is that I seem to remember being told to yell "KILL" as I drove my bayonet into a dummy while in training and when ask by the DI "What's the Spirit of the Bayonet" a weak "I want my Mommy" didn't cut it. There was also a lot of other training and discussions about how to kill your country's enemies and send them to hell, toot sweet with everything from pistols to Prick 25s and 77s, A prefered method so that you don't have to expose your own tender skin to high speed metal.

Most importantly guys, whether in the Civilian, Police or Military Worlds, "YOU FIGHT LIKE YOU TRAIN".

Jungle Work
John, remember alway have fall back plan B, C, D, and a plan to E&E that AO if stuff gets too bad.
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Old March 15, 2005, 12:01 AM   #8
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Quote:
the harder you train, the more of your skills
you will retain when it hits the fan
No question, although you could also say "the better you train..."

It's also true that the better you plan, the more resemblence your plan will have to reality.

And, clearly, as Derius & Jungle Work point out, a reasonable plan must have room for contingencies (lots of them) and allowance for circumstances which can not be controlled or accurately predicted.

I don't like Monday morning quarterbacking, but there's a difference between saying: "X did this and that but should have done..." and saying "X did this and that--in this type of a situation I plan to do... and train this way to carry out that plan."

In other words, there's a difference between learning from someone else's experience and "grading" them on their performance in a real world situation.
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Old March 15, 2005, 12:31 AM   #9
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John,
Up until the mid 70s it was considered bad form in LE to discuss or criticize the actions of an officer who had been involved in a gun battle, especially if he or another officer had been wounded or killed. The discussion of the New Hall California killings were the first I remember. The feeling of many trainers came out that the Idea that these shootings should be looked at to see if the officer was in policy or if training could be imporved to help the officers in the field survive. Debriefings are now SOP for Officer Involved Shootings and Shooting Review Boards. This day and time, Everybody's mothers, brothers and others have discussed the North Hollywood shootout.

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Old March 15, 2005, 01:03 AM   #10
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Simulators are great

One of the best tools for training are the simulators. You get shoot no shoot situations that can be varied so that what was a no shoot situation the first time through changes to a shoot situation the next time. The ones we used showed where your rounds went and if you or the bg got off the first round. Even though you are watching a screen, it still gets the circulation pumping.
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Old March 15, 2005, 07:31 AM   #11
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I think planning applies to various degrees. In it's most effective form it is based on scenarios with limited variables. In anycase it can be considered at least a basic starting point.

To condense this we can take it to a reasonable theoretical minimum. Say I live alone in a single story brick house with a couple of bedrooms, livingroom, kitchen etc, x-number of windows all of which have strong steel shutters I keep closed and locked at night, and two doors. The front and back doors are heavy wood, mounted in strong frames but represent the easiest points of forced entry. The plan concerns, "I am awoken by someone forcing their way in the front or back door". There are variables; but my basic plan might be to make ready, barricade in bedroom, phone and wait - while looking down the sights. Some unlikely variables may require an adjustment during an actual confrontation, but the likely variables are not going to change the success probability of the basic plan significantly.

However, it becomes far more complex when it is, "I come home, unlock the front door, and stepping inside I close the door and lock it. As I turn to hang up my coat there is a man standing across the livingroom with a shotgun pointed at my face."

But there are some general rules and practices that can be incorporated into baseline planning and training; factors that might apply to many or any human confrontation. Developing planning and training stimulates and orientates the mind on these matters which is useful in itself, and this might well aid some useful "thinking on the fly".

Where planning might end; mindset combined with training might continue.
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Old March 15, 2005, 07:56 AM   #12
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"The ones we used showed where your rounds went and if you or the bg got off the first round. Even though you are watching a screen, it still gets the circulation pumping."

I had a chance to do that when I was 16 years old and a member of the local SO explorer post. It had more of an effect on all of us then I think anybody expected. Forced us to be far more aware of what was happening when we went on ride alongs with the deputies.

I did not pursue LE as a career, but I still remember that training vividly to this day and can see the faces of the people in the scenarios and I am 35 now.

A couple of years ago in Portland Or there was a LE involved shooting where a 19 or 20 year old male was shot by LE. He was already at gunpoint and was instructed to put his hands in the air, instead he reached into a pocket and started to pull something out, it apeared to be a black metalic object, the LE shot and killed the subject. Turned out to be a cell phone he was pulling out. After the oversimplified training I had recieved I personally believe the officer was justified in his choice. Of course most of the community was outraged. Fact is that the officer was doing what he was trained to do, if that had been a firearm and he waited to see what it was he could have been killed and the BG could possibly have gotten away...

Training and planning helps more then just you. I do believe that we resort to the level or our training when it hits the fan. I also believe that if the plan is part of our training we can move the situation in the general direction of our plan better. An example is home defence, BG enters house, dogs start freaking out and barking, I pull my pants up at the same time I am grabbing my ruger, wife is pulling her pants up at the same time also (pants give you confidence believe it or not....), I move to the door of bedroom and clear hallway and stairway to allow us to get to kids rooms, I cover the stairway while wife picks up youngest and carries her to oldest bedroom, at this point oldest is dialing 911 and reading from the letter next to her phone, I continue to cover stairway till LE arrives, if worst happens I fight like hell, guns knives and sticks to protect my family, wife will do the same, oldest will also. Dogs will also probably be fighting with BG as this is happening.

Sure there are many variables, what if BG are ex LEO? There training is going to kick my butt, what if they are pro crimanals that have prior military training and have also spent time in prison? Again going to kick my butt, however according to plan by the time they are upstairs (remember dogs - 3 of them all big and protective of family) 911 has been called, we can do this in about 10 seconds. I do have backups also - knives and sticks which I also have training with. Wife actually has more training with sticks then you would even imagine, can fight 2 people at once, one behind her and the other in front of her, its freakin amazing.

Point is that with a plan that has a clear start and clear finish the parts in the middle can be adjusted as needed so long as you have a clear goal, in this case, keep family alive. Every thing you do must be towards that end. This type of thinking even works in business. I used it when doing project management. Set a begining point and a goal, build my plan to get there plan for known variables, and adjust when you run into unknown variables.
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Old March 15, 2005, 08:57 AM   #13
kennybs plbg
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LEO's and professionals aside, the average joe american will act as his nature, it's instinct. He will know his rights and act accordingly when the time comes, its human nature. I have faith in most people to do the right thing at the right time. The ones that scare the heck out of me are the ones that feel they must practice their draw in mirrors and constantly live life with what if's just incase something should happen.
The average joe I would put the most trust in is a hunter, one who was brought up with firearms, one that does not get giddy at the sight of one, knows what it does, can do and respects that. My children when young where taught this, they don't need special training to go through life to protect themselves, the need to know thier rights , respect others rights and live within them. They know right from wrong, how to use a firearm and I'm sure they will do the right thing if it should be required at that time.

Training that starts at 30 is 30 years late.

kenny b

Last edited by kennybs plbg; March 15, 2005 at 03:21 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old March 15, 2005, 10:09 PM   #14
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Kennybs wrote: "They know right from wrong, how to use a firearm and I'm sure they will do the right thing if it should be required at that time."

For your children's sake, . . . I hope you are correct.

Unfortunately, it has been very aptly demonstrated in every hot war ever fought that:

1) some have the mindset to survive by making that other soldier die for his cause

2) some have the mindset that if they hide deep enough and long enough, someone will probably rescue them

3) some have the mindset that they haven't a clue of what to do, so instead of "reacting" they have to stop, . . . think, . . . analyze, . . . debate, . . . and finally decide. They result is that they wind up dead, raped, robbed, shot, mugged, vandalized, folded, spindled, and mutilated while going through the mental process.

Yes, . . . very few "scenarios" actually work out to be even near a real event, . . . but it still will develop "reaction muscle memory", . . . it still gives the person an option other than being a victim, . . . and it gives the person a certain confidence that alone is sometimes the difference between living and dying.

Ask a combat vet about his training, . . . was his teenage hunting experiences enough, . . . he'll probably laugh in your face if he actually saw and lived through a fire fight or two.

I'll say it for Jungle Work and others, . . . there is absolutely no substitute for training, . . . if all a person can do is scenarioize, . . . that is still better than nothing, . . . at least it might help develop the "1)" mindset that will keep him or her alive.

May God bless,
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Old March 16, 2005, 12:38 AM   #15
kennybs plbg
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I think your missing my point. I know you missed the first line. It started with LEO's and professionals, I think the soldier falls under that heading.

Millions of people a year protect themselves with firearms, this country alone has survived hundreds of years with the right of the people to protect themselves. It is just in the last 30 years or so that we are told we don't know how to do it "Properly". We need training from experts to survive. Next the training will be mandatory in order to own a firearm, and it will be available at a high cost. This is B/S and the average person today buys into it, even the new gun owners are hooked with fear. Fear of being sued, fear of going to jail and fear of the gun itself. When I was growing up guns weren't feared, they were respected. People didn't tell us our rights, we knew our rights. There is so much false information out there regarding rights and laws, and people are lined up single file buying it all as gospel. It's sad to see the direction this country is going. I was pointing out not all the people are followers, we still have leaders. People that can protect and defend themselves without help from goverment or so called experts. You know, fearless people.

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Old March 16, 2005, 08:30 AM   #16
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Visualization is a powerful tool, when done correctly.

Picturing yourself just shooting everyone to the ground is probably not the best approach.

Imagining your move to cover, 360 degree scan,etc. are all helpful.

Coupled with training that emphasizes simplicity of motion and movement, it really will help prepare you for a violent encounter.

Because unless you are truly exceptional...you will not be at your cerebral best during a gunfight. Every "decision" that you have to make will slow you down and take a bite out of your effectiveness.

We talk about gross/fine motor skills, but most time is lost to decisions.

Gross/Fine actions may mean you actually cannot do something under stress...but training will help with that as well.

The importance of training cannot be overemphasized.

Just like owning a piano does not make you a musician...even if you thunk on the keys, you are still just making noise....same with firearms...you just make more noise
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Old March 16, 2005, 08:35 AM   #17
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kennybs

I dont think he missed your point at all. He was comparing war combat to street combat. Fighting for your life is fighting for your life and that is the discussion at hand.

I was not worried about much 30 years ago - I was only 5 years old. I know that now in the city I live in Columbus OH they recently arrested and are trying to deport (a second time) a major player in the MS-13 gang, known to have a large number of members with formal military training, a city were many Police officers have been killed in the short 6 months that I have lived here, a city were there is news every day about a murder seems like about 2 a week....

Point is that you may not be facing just another guy when it all comes down to it. You may be facing a pro - criminal. Somebody who has; trained, planned, and prepared for what he/she is going to do to you. It may be a group of people, two or three. It is also likely that this person does not care what the law says and does not think about things like going to jail or getting caught. It also is likely it won't happen.... In any case preparing for it is not going to hurt you and more then likely will help you and yours to not become a victim or get into that situation to begin with.

My long tirade all boils down to this - training and planning can prevent you from being a victim and that is what this is all about. Make it home for dinner with your family every night. The average joe American you refer to is a victim plain and simple. We are now raised to be victims by the schools that we attend when they expell both students in the fight even the one that just blocked the punches thrown at them, by a society that teaches us to comply with criminal demands, its just now turning around a little bit - look at airlines if somebodey does something wrong on an airplane now they can count on getting tackled by not just the airline employees but also by just about every passenger within reach...

Teach yourself and your kids not to be victims. Teach them to stand up to a bully on the schoolyard or at work someday. Even a verbal bully should not be tollerated. Fight or flight is the only instinct we realy seem to have left and if the only training we have is flight what happens when we are cornered? The only thing the schools are teaching our kids is flight...
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Old March 16, 2005, 09:10 AM   #18
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Planning and training definitely serve a productive purpose. Chest-thumping and d*ck-waving do not. Threads like this one tend to be rather light on the former and heavy on the latter.
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Old March 16, 2005, 11:19 AM   #19
kennybs plbg
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Quote:
Planning and training definitely serve a productive purpose. Chest-thumping and d*ck-waving do not
Guess I must be the latter considering I don't believe everyone needs to be a trained comando to survive today.

lets take a look at what I'm thumping about here:

1) I have faith in people to succede on there own.
2) I know my rights and passed them on to my children.
3) I have faith in my children to do the right thing and respect others rights.
4) I have faith in believing my children can protect themselves.
5) I believe in the second amendment.

Your right, I'm totally out of caracter with todays society.
(at least I still have my d*ck to wave, maybe your trainer can show you how it was done)

kenny b
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Old March 16, 2005, 02:49 PM   #20
OBIWAN
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I don't believe anyone here said you have to be a "trained commando" to survive.

On the other hand, there are certain elements of society that feel that skill with weapons is genetic or something

Lots of people trust to luck and get through life just fine.

Some practice diligently and are at the very least safe, if not proficent.

Some are gun (piano) owners

Some are just scary in their approach to safety...and accuracy..and many of them don't realize it...they should sell their guns and buy pianos.

Many of us see the benefit of having some more advanced level of proficency.

And we are willing to invest the cost of an inexpensive firearm to get it

We don't think we know it all...and we see the value in instruction.

Some of us are willing to invest in lots of instruction

what exactly is wrong with that
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Old March 16, 2005, 03:20 PM   #21
kennybs plbg
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Nothing at all you covered all bases well, and I agree.

But others here feel training is mandatory for everyone to keep up with "The Professional Criminal" as put above, when in truth most are Punks. The professional criminal wants very little to do with an armed citizen, actually it's his worst fear. This thrd. is getting out of hand, I expressed my view (No thumping at all) that just happens to be based on fact and was taken to town. Maybe people should re-read my posts, I just reflected the building blocks of a great country and people can't deal with it. Thats sad.

kenny b
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Old March 16, 2005, 04:04 PM   #22
OBIWAN
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Thanks....and I hope for your sake that you are right

But a certain gentleman ( hero) in Texas found out the hard way that some bad guys are not afraid of anyone....that they are prepared and well armed.....and standing there trading shots with them ain't gonna cut it.

Extreme example ...sure...but those are the ones that make training worth every minute and $$
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