.357 Magnum reloading

DaggerBlade · May 7, 2015, 11:56 AM

Max OAL for a .357 mag is 1.590". Using a 158grain SWC bullet. If I crimp the case at (A in jpg) OAL is 1.600"-1.610". If I crimp the case at (B in jpg) OAL is 1.590". Crimped at "A" the cylinder will still rotate without rubbing. I have several hundred rounds crimped at "A". I know several guys that reload who crimp at "A" without issue. Is there any risk or issues crimping at "A" or should I crimp at "B"?

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/k...sag5ief1w.jpeg

Salmoneye · May 7, 2015, 12:06 PM

Uh...

'A' is the crimp groove on that bullet in the pic...

Why would there be an issue crimping there?

DaggerBlade · May 7, 2015, 12:14 PM

Salmoneye, I agree that "A" is the crimp grove but crimping there makes the OAL longer that what is normal for a 357. I have some factory loaded SWC and they are crimped at "B". Just looking for for some reassurance that what I have is safe to shoot.

mikld · May 7, 2015, 01:29 PM

Bullet designers know where to put crimp grooves, they are not hap-hazardly placed. "A" is obviously the crimp groove and as long as the cartridge is not longer than the cylinder, ferget "normal" OAL as there ain't a "normal" unless you use the exact same bullet as the factory ammo. I started reloading pre web and never loaded one round to a specific OAL. My .38/.357s digested every round I reloaded with the bullet seated to the crimp groove...

OAL for revolver ammo is determined by the distance from the crimp groove to the bullet nose and not every bullet shares this dimension.

Nick_C_S · May 7, 2015, 01:41 PM

I loaded these five days ago. I just pulled them out and measured them - their OAL is 1.610. BTW, in over thirty years of loading, this is the first time I have ever measured the OAL of a bullet that has a crimp groove (or cannelure, for that matter). If they have a crimp groove or cannelure, my calipers stay in their case under the bench.

This is my "go to" lead shooter for 357 Magnum. I have shot thousands of these over the years. They're good to go without any question.

NoSecondBest · May 7, 2015, 01:51 PM

Put it in the crimp groove of what ever bullet you're using and quit measuring. If it turns it burns.

Hammerhead · May 7, 2015, 02:52 PM

Don't worry about minor differences in recommended OAL. Crimp in the crimp groove as long as it fits in your cylinder with at least .010" to spare, just in case they pull forward slightly during firing.

TimSr · May 8, 2015, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Max OAL for a .357 mag is 1.590". Using a 158grain SWC bullet.

NO. Max OAL for a .357 mag is 1.590". Using a 158grain SWC bullet that was produced from the same mold as the one in the book you happen to be looking at.

Thats why they put an easy to see groove in teh bullet for your convenience and simplicity.

**44 AMP** · May 8, 2015, 01:36 PM

The COAL number is a convenience number. It is the agreed upon length that should work in all common firearms in that caliber, without being too long to work through the action or have the bullet jammed in the rifling.

Beyond that, it means nothing. Some guns are very picky about length, others less so. ALSO, specific bullet profile makes a difference.

In one instance I recently heard about a fellow loaded a few rounds for a gun, while waiting on its delivery. He was going to load a few hundred, but I cautioned him to wait until he had the gun in his hands, and he partially took my advice.

The rounds he did load were all within "correct" OAL, but when he got the gun, they would not chamber. The gun he got apparently has a "short" leade, and the bullet he used has a very wide nose. TO get THAT bullet to work in his gun, he had to seat them a bit deeper than published COAL in order for them to work. Another fellow, found that max length rounds in his gun chambered fine, but wouldn't work through his magazine.

Marlin lever guns in .357 & .44 are very critical of over length rounds. Too long, and they won't feed through the action, and you'll have to disassemble the gun to get the ammo out.

In a revolver, its much less important. As long as the bullet doesn't stick out past the front of the cylinder (or jump crimp), you're good to go. No matter where the crimp groove is. Some bullets have more than one crimp groove for just this reason. In one gun the lower groove might work fine, in a different kind of gun, the upper one might be the only viable option.

Hope this helps.

**Unclenick** · May 8, 2015, 02:11 PM

DaggerBlade,

You are off by +0.020". Most revolvers I've seen easily have that much extra length in their cylinders. The only likely "shortcoming", if you'll forgive the inverse-pun, is that if you have any trouble with the bullets backing out during firing, they will have less far to go to jam cylinder rotation.

Measure the cylinder by dropping an empty case into a chamber and using your caliper to measure from the back of the case head to the front of your cylinder. That is your practical limit (but do allow that rim thickness can vary from 0.049-0.060").

1.610" is the maximum COL for a .44 Magnum. It wouldn't surprise me if the fellow designing the bullet got the .357 and .44 Mag COL's confused while working his design numbers out. But again, and as the others said, as long as it doesn't jam rotation of your cylinder and doesn't back out enough to do so during firing, you are good to go.

Average Joe · May 8, 2015, 07:53 PM

The oal don't matter on revolvers , just roll crimp in the groove and you are good to go.

aherrera773 · May 8, 2015, 11:12 PM

Ok I agree with all the above posts. A question that I have been pondering is regarding shorter than normal brass Hornady brass for example. Not to hijack the thread but what are your thoughts on full charge of H110 and Winchester158 grain jhps. I would still want seat in the crimp groove to keep my bullets seated right but would also worry over pressure issues.

Nick_C_S · May 8, 2015, 11:39 PM

aherrera773, The best approach with Hornady FTX brass (1.240" - according to the Hornady manual) is to back the charge down a little. You still want to use the cannelure - just like you normally would. You're just going to have a slightly shorter OAL, and a little less powder for your final round.

H110 is among the most forgiving of all pistol powders. If you start a few 1/10ths below minimum for your work up, I think you'll be fine. I'm just guessing, but I'd venture to say that you'll probably end up well within the normal published data as your final load.

It's a common belief that when you reduce the internal case volume (which is what you're doing), you increase pressure. Well, true. But more accurately, you're increasing burn rate. And even that is an over-simplification with all the dynamics going on. But it gives a better picture of what's going on. For instance, Unique in a 9mm case probably has a pressure curve similar to Bullseye in a 38 Special case - the difference being the case volume.

**44 AMP** · May 9, 2015, 12:18 PM

Quote:

A question that I have been pondering is regarding shorter than normal brass Hornady brass for example. Not to hijack the thread but what are your thoughts on full charge of H110 and Winchester158 grain jhps. I would still want seat in the crimp groove to keep my bullets seated right but would also worry over pressure issues.

The answer to this is easy, and the standard handloading practice. When you change ANY component (including brand of case), you work up your loads again, for that specific combination.

DON'T just dump a max charge into a different case and assume all will be well!

Drop back to the starting load (or slightly under) and work up to see if you can reach the listed max, or if you are stopped by pressure signs before you get there. Either outcome is equally possible, it all depends on your gun and combination of components.

aherrera773 · May 9, 2015, 03:10 PM

I understand not jumping to max load right away. As the standard practice since ive been reloading is to back of 10% on start loads. The reason I brought up h110 is the start load is 15.0 grains and max is 16.7 grains. The difference in start to finsh pressure is 28,600 cup to start and 40,700 cup to max. To me that seems large jump in pressure in only 1.7 grains of powder. I have always read that h-110 powder also doesn't like to be below start loads and you may get pressure spikes in doing this as well. Add to this a shorter case OAL. and it had me wondering if anybody has tried it.

Salmoneye · May 10, 2015, 06:52 AM

Quote:

I have always read that h-110 powder also doesn't like to be below start loads and you may get pressure spikes in doing this as well.

You do not get pressure spikes by reducing H110/W296...

What you MAY get is incomplete burn and the threat of sticking a bullet in the barrel...

In rapid fire this may lead to a catastrophic failure if followed by a fully ignited load...

H110/W296 requires firm crimps and magnum primers...

From The old Hodgdon Loading Data pages:

H110 Loads should not be reduced more than 3%. Reduce H110 Loads 3% and work up from there. H110 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction). This may cause severe personal injury or death to users or bystanders.

DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%.

A couple of good old threads on the subject:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=228081

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=657027

black mamba · May 10, 2015, 08:53 AM

Each hundredth inch (.01") of bullet seating depth reduces or expands the powder space by about a quarter of a grain (.25 gr.) in the .357 magnum. Just be aware if seating too deeply that pressures can be raised pretty fast.

stubbicatt · May 11, 2015, 07:21 AM

I have found 2400 to be a good propellant for the 357. It has a pretty wide range of safe loads, and is cast bullet friendly in my experience. Trim your cases to proper length each time, and crimp in the groove provided. It works pretty well for reliable and accurate ammunition.

May 7, 2015, 11:56 AM	#1
DaggerBlade Junior Member Join Date: January 18, 2015 Posts: 9	.357 Magnum reloading Max OAL for a .357 mag is 1.590". Using a 158grain SWC bullet. If I crimp the case at (A in jpg) OAL is 1.600"-1.610". If I crimp the case at (B in jpg) OAL is 1.590". Crimped at "A" the cylinder will still rotate without rubbing. I have several hundred rounds crimped at "A". I know several guys that reload who crimp at "A" without issue. Is there any risk or issues crimping at "A" or should I crimp at "B"? http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/k...sag5ief1w.jpeg

May 7, 2015, 01:41 PM	#5
Nick_C_S Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2013 Location: Idaho Posts: 5,536	I loaded these five days ago. I just pulled them out and measured them - their OAL is 1.610. BTW, in over thirty years of loading, this is the first time I have ever measured the OAL of a bullet that has a crimp groove (or cannelure, for that matter). If they have a crimp groove or cannelure, my calipers stay in their case under the bench. This is my "go to" lead shooter for 357 Magnum. I have shot thousands of these over the years. They're good to go without any question. __________________ Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association

May 8, 2015, 01:36 PM	#9
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 29,011	The COAL number is a convenience number. It is the agreed upon length that should work in all common firearms in that caliber, without being too long to work through the action or have the bullet jammed in the rifling. Beyond that, it means nothing. Some guns are very picky about length, others less so. ALSO, specific bullet profile makes a difference. In one instance I recently heard about a fellow loaded a few rounds for a gun, while waiting on its delivery. He was going to load a few hundred, but I cautioned him to wait until he had the gun in his hands, and he partially took my advice. The rounds he did load were all within "correct" OAL, but when he got the gun, they would not chamber. The gun he got apparently has a "short" leade, and the bullet he used has a very wide nose. TO get THAT bullet to work in his gun, he had to seat them a bit deeper than published COAL in order for them to work. Another fellow, found that max length rounds in his gun chambered fine, but wouldn't work through his magazine. Marlin lever guns in .357 & .44 are very critical of over length rounds. Too long, and they won't feed through the action, and you'll have to disassemble the gun to get the ammo out. In a revolver, its much less important. As long as the bullet doesn't stick out past the front of the cylinder (or jump crimp), you're good to go. No matter where the crimp groove is. Some bullets have more than one crimp groove for just this reason. In one gun the lower groove might work fine, in a different kind of gun, the upper one might be the only viable option. Hope this helps. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

May 8, 2015, 02:11 PM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,121	DaggerBlade, You are off by +0.020". Most revolvers I've seen easily have that much extra length in their cylinders. The only likely "shortcoming", if you'll forgive the inverse-pun, is that if you have any trouble with the bullets backing out during firing, they will have less far to go to jam cylinder rotation. Measure the cylinder by dropping an empty case into a chamber and using your caliper to measure from the back of the case head to the front of your cylinder. That is your practical limit (but do allow that rim thickness can vary from 0.049-0.060"). 1.610" is the maximum COL for a .44 Magnum. It wouldn't surprise me if the fellow designing the bullet got the .357 and .44 Mag COL's confused while working his design numbers out. But again, and as the others said, as long as it doesn't jam rotation of your cylinder and doesn't back out enough to do so during firing, you are good to go. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; May 8, 2015 at 02:23 PM.

May 8, 2015, 11:39 PM	#13
Nick_C_S Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2013 Location: Idaho Posts: 5,536	aherrera773, The best approach with Hornady FTX brass (1.240" - according to the Hornady manual) is to back the charge down a little. You still want to use the cannelure - just like you normally would. You're just going to have a slightly shorter OAL, and a little less powder for your final round. H110 is among the most forgiving of all pistol powders. If you start a few 1/10ths below minimum for your work up, I think you'll be fine. I'm just guessing, but I'd venture to say that you'll probably end up well within the normal published data as your final load. It's a common belief that when you reduce the internal case volume (which is what you're doing), you increase pressure. Well, true. But more accurately, you're increasing burn rate. And even that is an over-simplification with all the dynamics going on. But it gives a better picture of what's going on. For instance, Unique in a 9mm case probably has a pressure curve similar to Bullseye in a 38 Special case - the difference being the case volume. __________________ Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association

May 7, 2015, 12:06 PM	#2
Salmoneye Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,076	Uh... 'A' is the crimp groove on that bullet in the pic... Why would there be an issue crimping there?

May 7, 2015, 12:14 PM	#3
DaggerBlade Junior Member Join Date: January 18, 2015 Posts: 9	Salmoneye, I agree that "A" is the crimp grove but crimping there makes the OAL longer that what is normal for a 357. I have some factory loaded SWC and they are crimped at "B". Just looking for for some reassurance that what I have is safe to shoot.

May 7, 2015, 01:29 PM	#4
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Bullet designers know where to put crimp grooves, they are not hap-hazardly placed. "A" is obviously the crimp groove and as long as the cartridge is not longer than the cylinder, ferget "normal" OAL as there ain't a "normal" unless you use the exact same bullet as the factory ammo. I started reloading pre web and never loaded one round to a specific OAL. My .38/.357s digested every round I reloaded with the bullet seated to the crimp groove... OAL for revolver ammo is determined by the distance from the crimp groove to the bullet nose and not every bullet shares this dimension.

May 7, 2015, 01:51 PM	#6
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	Put it in the crimp groove of what ever bullet you're using and quit measuring. If it turns it burns.

May 7, 2015, 02:52 PM	#7
Hammerhead Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,432	Don't worry about minor differences in recommended OAL. Crimp in the crimp groove as long as it fits in your cylinder with at least .010" to spare, just in case they pull forward slightly during firing.

May 8, 2015, 07:53 PM	#11
Average Joe Senior Member Join Date: August 29, 2005 Location: Central Florida Posts: 1,325	The oal don't matter on revolvers , just roll crimp in the groove and you are good to go.

May 8, 2015, 11:12 PM	#12
aherrera773 Member Join Date: November 27, 2014 Posts: 51	Ok I agree with all the above posts. A question that I have been pondering is regarding shorter than normal brass Hornady brass for example. Not to hijack the thread but what are your thoughts on full charge of H110 and Winchester158 grain jhps. I would still want seat in the crimp groove to keep my bullets seated right but would also worry over pressure issues.

May 9, 2015, 03:10 PM	#15
aherrera773 Member Join Date: November 27, 2014 Posts: 51	I understand not jumping to max load right away. As the standard practice since ive been reloading is to back of 10% on start loads. The reason I brought up h110 is the start load is 15.0 grains and max is 16.7 grains. The difference in start to finsh pressure is 28,600 cup to start and 40,700 cup to max. To me that seems large jump in pressure in only 1.7 grains of powder. I have always read that h-110 powder also doesn't like to be below start loads and you may get pressure spikes in doing this as well. Add to this a shorter case OAL. and it had me wondering if anybody has tried it.

May 10, 2015, 08:53 AM	#17
black mamba Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2011 Location: SW Florida Posts: 890	Each hundredth inch (.01") of bullet seating depth reduces or expands the powder space by about a quarter of a grain (.25 gr.) in the .357 magnum. Just be aware if seating too deeply that pressures can be raised pretty fast.

May 11, 2015, 07:21 AM	#18
stubbicatt Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Posts: 1,707	I have found 2400 to be a good propellant for the 357. It has a pretty wide range of safe loads, and is cast bullet friendly in my experience. Trim your cases to proper length each time, and crimp in the groove provided. It works pretty well for reliable and accurate ammunition.