Bullet and case feeders - when makes sense?

Fargazer · November 18, 2010, 05:03 PM

I am starting to weigh reloading as an option for my ammo. I've read the stickies, and should have "Abc's Of Reloading" delivered tomorrow for me to research.

Currently my wife and I are shooting roughly 150 rounds of 9mm twice a week for practice at an indoor range; we finish up with another couple hundred 22's (more if we run out of 9mm). We'd like to double our 9mm fire to 300 rounds or more twice a week, but I can't see a reasonable way to afford it without reloading.

If I were to reload, my initial goal would be to work up to a decent quantity of consistent target ammo twice a month. That would imply roughly 1500 rounds a session, with two bullet configurations (for 124 and a 147). Note I say work up to, not immediately start at. Luckily for costs I am only looking at 9mm at this time; eventually I may also load .45 ACP and others.

Most of the answers I'm looking for have been either in the recommended books, or in existing posts. However, one thing I was curious about were bullet and case feeders:

At what level of ammunition production does it start making sense to look at bullet and case feeders?
Are they actually time savers, or do issues with their setup and maintenance add significant headache to the "speed"?

If I do decide to reload, then I'd like whatever equipment I get to have as much flexibility down the road as possible. If I start with a single or turret press, that's not going to be an issue - you wouldn't put such an accessory on one of those anyway - but if I were to start with a progressive press, I'd want to keep an eye toward what was available for later expansion.

Sevens · November 18, 2010, 07:58 PM

Okay, then I would say at your needs right now, you could easily get by without either a bullet or case feeder.

But if you go Dillon, don't get the SDB press, because it's the most limited for expansion and upgrades.

The biggest "headache" with regard to case feeding, if you can get past the horrific price tag... is the monumental amount of loud racket that they make. That right there is a deal breaker for me. I can't stand racket, and there's no better way to define the noise that emanates from those things -- pure racket.

I think it's difficult to assign a number at which these items become a "need." This suggestion might not help but it seems obvious to me: if your wife is sawing through half the ammo, she could probably help out with getting cases and bullets ready nearly as well as the feeding devices!

frumious · November 18, 2010, 11:19 PM

Hmmm...If you consider a somewhat-optimistic 500 rounds per hour then that's 3 hours per session, one session every two weeks This is possible with a good progressive that has a quick way to stage/refill primers. And of course no interruptions. Doing all one bullet weight during a session will also help, as there will be no stopping for die adjustments for the different bullets.

That being said, if it were me I'd be wanting a bullet and/or case feeder around that level of output.

And THAT being said, I would be irritated to no end that I couldn't find a bullet feeder that works for lead bullets, as that is what I personally shoot. It seems like all the bullet feeders (Dillon, RCBS, I'm guessing others too) specify non-lead. What's the deal? I mean there's Lee, they have a lead bullet feeder, but after having owned a Loadmaster I can say that if you have a Lee progressive then not having a bullet feeder will not be one of the problems you are no doubt having :-)

One other thing I'd want at that output level in a progressive is auto-index, something not all progressives have. Preferably auto-index that can be deacitvated if I desire.

-cls

Jim243 · November 18, 2010, 11:30 PM

At the level you are shooting I would say a progressive press is warrented and would suggest a Lee Load Master in 9mm, it comes with everything (including dies, powder measure, and all parts except the bullet feeder (extra money) it does come with the case feeder and does not make any noise.

The problem I see is that in 9mm your cost savings will be minimual in 45 ACP your savings will be much better. But either way the cost of bullets to load will be the real concern unless you buy in bulk.

Good luck
Jim

Waldog · November 19, 2010, 03:05 PM

Go to: http://www.10xshooters.com/calculators/index.htm

They have great calculators that provide cost data for Handgun, Rifle and Shotgun reloading. You can also calculate the cost of your loading equipment into the equation.

I do not recommend a LEE progressive loader. There are other options available that are much less frustrating.

testuser · November 19, 2010, 08:02 PM

Keep in mind that changing the primer feed (large to small) on a Dillon progressive can be a pain, you likely won't switch back and forth on a whim. I don't know about the Hornady.

Just food for thought if you plan on getting a progressive and want to load the 9mm and .45 ACP.

A lot of people will have one progressive set up for the caliber they shoot most often (or one primer type, etc.) and a turret or single stage for small batches of rifle and pistol rounds or to do specific operations like de-capping or bullet pulling.

I advise getting a press without bullet feeder and case feeder for the time being. You can always buy them later.

Fargazer · November 20, 2010, 03:51 AM

I've received the ABC book, and have done my first pass through it (I'll reread it a couple times over the next week).

It sounds like the best bet will be to start with a single or turret based setup oriented to prototype loads, and stick with high quality accessories. If I find I enjoy it, I can add a progressive press for "production" of my prototypes. If I don't enjoy it, my son-in-law will be thrilled with the equipment, in particular the powder scale / dispenser.

So far, I'm probably basing my initial setup around (not a complete list):

A Lee Classic Cast Turret press
a 9mm carbide die set
- Lee, Hornady, possibly Redding - depends on what deals I find
Chargemaster 1500 plus dispenser
- perhaps overkill, but it's convenient, and appears to be the best of the reloading electrics at the tenth grain accuracy level.
new brass to start with, so no tumbler or media needed right away.

I'll start with a 9mm target round with a 147 grain bullet, and then another with a 124 grain bullet. If I continue with reloading, I'll probably add a Hornady LnL Progressive and a second set of 9mm dies. The Hornady has the advantage of having both case and bullet feeder options if I decide I want them down the road. The Lee would be relegated to prototyping loads, and possibly small batches of alternate calibers (such as .45 ACP).

We will see how this initial plan stands up to another couple weeks of research and a few more books; I won't actually pull the trigger on reloading equipment until after Christmas.

testuser · November 20, 2010, 12:01 PM

Sounds like a plan.

I'd suggest starting with an RCBS 505 balance beam scale. It's one of those scales that just about everyone has. The 1500 is going be too slow for pistol charges, you won't get the real feel for how quick a turret is going to be using one. That product is best suited for rifle shooters.

How about?

- Lee Classic 4 Hole Turret Press
- Lee Auto Prime (for off press priming) OR Lee Safety Prime to Prime on press
- Shell plate for Lee Auto Prime (19 fits 9mm, I think)
- RCBS 505 Scale
- Lee Auto Disk Pro Measure
- A funnel
- Dies (Lee Factory Crimp die in their 4 die set is great. I use nothing but Lee dies for 12 calibers, but replace the Lee lock rings with Hornady. Works well and won't loosen on a turret press.)

1 lbs of Alliant Powder Pistol, which also happens to be great for .45 ACP it meters well in the Lee measure and won't pack much as badly due to turret vibrations. It will also give you factory velocities at starting loads (10% under max) with low pressures.

Load data is on the Alliant Powder website.

If you want to weigh each charge and then trickle powder you can, that's just unnecessary for pistol loading, even when making target loads. If that's your plan, though, you'll need a powder trickler.

Press vibrations tend to settle the powder during operation, so don't forget to validate the charge after you've run the press through a cycle. Dump ten charges in the pan to get an average. Check a few to make sure the extreme spread is ok, then check periodically as you load. All measures have variation, so long as you're plus or minus 0.1 or 0.2 grains of your average and not close to max, then you're good to go.

Most once fired brass companies (like my recent order from oncefiredbrass.com) tumble the brass for you. So, if you want to go with once fired, you're ok.

I haven't used the Lee Safety Prime, but I do have an Auto Prime. Again, it's one of those tools that just about everyone has. They work. I have no idea how well the Safety Prime works, but probably best to start simple! There's almost zero learning curve for the auto prime.

My preference is to prime off press. I just size and prime in big batches and store the ready-to-go brass in cheap, plastic tupperware from the grocery store. When I want to load I go to the turret, fill it with powder and starting banging out rounds.

You can also substitute additional labor for faster presses. My brother helps me sometimes. For example, your wife sizes and you prime the brass.

Oh, one more tip, if you crush a few cases while sizing, then take your shell plate and twist it so it's facing "backwards". This can sometimes be an issue with Lee presses.

Ok, that's all I can think of for a new reloader on Lee equipment, anyway. Hope this helps.

FrankenMauser · November 20, 2010, 02:34 PM

Quote:

I'll start with a 9mm target round with a 147 grain bullet, and then another with a 124 grain bullet. If I continue with reloading, I'll probably add a Hornady LnL Progressive and a second set of 9mm dies. The Hornady has the advantage of having both case and bullet feeder options if I decide I want them down the road. The Lee would be relegated to prototyping loads, and possibly small batches of alternate calibers (such as .45 ACP).

That's exactly what I was going to suggest:
1. Start with an inexpensive single-stage, to learn the process, and gain confidence in yourself and your reloads.
2. If your desire to reload is true (if you don't enjoy it, don't keep doing it), upgrade to a progressive press after a while.

I have a Dillon 550B with several quick change tool heads. It makes cartridge (or load) changes very quick, and takes die adjustment times out of the equation. My Dillon doesn't get used a lot (maybe 12 hours so far in 2010), but I pump loaded rounds out of it at about 200-250 rounds per hour with no bullet feeder, no case feeder, a standard powder hopper, and no automatic primer feeder.
(Most people here {including myself} consider my 200-250 rounds per hour a leisurely pace, but I prefer quality over quantity.)

Just get a full set of dies for each 9mm load, and keep them set up. Minimizing down time helps maximize output.

ArizonaRick · November 20, 2010, 11:59 PM

I have owned several Dillon progresives over the past 20 years( RL450, 550, 650, & Square Deal, they work great, but for the money I would buy the Lee Load Master for $219 complete with dies from Factory Sale (look up on web). Comes with case feeder, five die stations, optional bullet feeder..... tough to go wrong. It is equal to the Dillon 650 but more than half the price. I love Lee dies, especially the factory crimp die, and the lee collet die for rifle. If you have money to spare, the Dillon will give you many years of good service. Good luck.

thump_rrr · November 21, 2010, 01:06 AM

I wanted the Hornady LNL progressive press but since I'm just starting out I bought the Lee 50th anniversary kit and a few sets of their deluxe pistol dies, some additional breech lock bushings, and a kinetic hammer to pull bullets.
The whole setup cost me less than $200 to get started. I have since added an ultrasonic cleaner and a tumbler and media separator so I'm now in for around $400 total.

The only negative to this setup so far is the small size of the anniversary press but it's more than adequate to get started. For the ammount of ammo you're looking at producing I'd definitely be looking at a progressive though.

demigod · November 22, 2010, 11:17 AM

I find those case feeders to be repulsive for the average loader. I mean... if you're too lazy to grab a piece of brass and put it in the dang machine...

I've run my dillon for many years now. And I've tried to take as much nonsense OFF of the machine as I can... not Add to it. I don't need and early primer or powder warning system. I opt to actually PAY ATTENTION at the bench, MAMA!!

November 18, 2010, 05:03 PM	#1
Fargazer Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2010 Location: Chattanooga, TN Posts: 466	Bullet and case feeders - when makes sense? I am starting to weigh reloading as an option for my ammo. I've read the stickies, and should have "Abc's Of Reloading" delivered tomorrow for me to research. Currently my wife and I are shooting roughly 150 rounds of 9mm twice a week for practice at an indoor range; we finish up with another couple hundred 22's (more if we run out of 9mm). We'd like to double our 9mm fire to 300 rounds or more twice a week, but I can't see a reasonable way to afford it without reloading. If I were to reload, my initial goal would be to work up to a decent quantity of consistent target ammo twice a month. That would imply roughly 1500 rounds a session, with two bullet configurations (for 124 and a 147). Note I say work up to, not immediately start at. Luckily for costs I am only looking at 9mm at this time; eventually I may also load .45 ACP and others. Most of the answers I'm looking for have been either in the recommended books, or in existing posts. However, one thing I was curious about were bullet and case feeders: At what level of ammunition production does it start making sense to look at bullet and case feeders? Are they actually time savers, or do issues with their setup and maintenance add significant headache to the "speed"? If I do decide to reload, then I'd like whatever equipment I get to have as much flexibility down the road as possible. If I start with a single or turret press, that's not going to be an issue - you wouldn't put such an accessory on one of those anyway - but if I were to start with a progressive press, I'd want to keep an eye toward what was available for later expansion.

November 18, 2010, 07:58 PM	#2
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,758	Okay, then I would say at your needs right now, you could easily get by without either a bullet or case feeder. But if you go Dillon, don't get the SDB press, because it's the most limited for expansion and upgrades. The biggest "headache" with regard to case feeding, if you can get past the horrific price tag... is the monumental amount of loud racket that they make. That right there is a deal breaker for me. I can't stand racket, and there's no better way to define the noise that emanates from those things -- pure racket. I think it's difficult to assign a number at which these items become a "need." This suggestion might not help but it seems obvious to me: if your wife is sawing through half the ammo, she could probably help out with getting cases and bullets ready nearly as well as the feeding devices! __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

November 19, 2010, 03:05 PM	#5
Waldog Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2007 Location: SOCAL Posts: 359	Go to: http://www.10xshooters.com/calculators/index.htm They have great calculators that provide cost data for Handgun, Rifle and Shotgun reloading. You can also calculate the cost of your loading equipment into the equation. I do not recommend a LEE progressive loader. There are other options available that are much less frustrating. __________________ I am the Christian Conservative that CNN warned you about!! “Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy.” Winston Churchill

November 19, 2010, 08:02 PM	#6
testuser Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2010 Posts: 495	Keep in mind that changing the primer feed (large to small) on a Dillon progressive can be a pain, you likely won't switch back and forth on a whim. I don't know about the Hornady. Just food for thought if you plan on getting a progressive and want to load the 9mm and .45 ACP. A lot of people will have one progressive set up for the caliber they shoot most often (or one primer type, etc.) and a turret or single stage for small batches of rifle and pistol rounds or to do specific operations like de-capping or bullet pulling. I advise getting a press without bullet feeder and case feeder for the time being. You can always buy them later. Last edited by testuser; November 19, 2010 at 08:16 PM.

November 20, 2010, 03:51 AM	#7
Fargazer Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2010 Location: Chattanooga, TN Posts: 466	I've received the ABC book, and have done my first pass through it (I'll reread it a couple times over the next week). It sounds like the best bet will be to start with a single or turret based setup oriented to prototype loads, and stick with high quality accessories. If I find I enjoy it, I can add a progressive press for "production" of my prototypes. If I don't enjoy it, my son-in-law will be thrilled with the equipment, in particular the powder scale / dispenser. So far, I'm probably basing my initial setup around (not a complete list): A Lee Classic Cast Turret press a 9mm carbide die set Lee, Hornady, possibly Redding - depends on what deals I find Chargemaster 1500 plus dispenser perhaps overkill, but it's convenient, and appears to be the best of the reloading electrics at the tenth grain accuracy level. new brass to start with, so no tumbler or media needed right away. I'll start with a 9mm target round with a 147 grain bullet, and then another with a 124 grain bullet. If I continue with reloading, I'll probably add a Hornady LnL Progressive and a second set of 9mm dies. The Hornady has the advantage of having both case and bullet feeder options if I decide I want them down the road. The Lee would be relegated to prototyping loads, and possibly small batches of alternate calibers (such as .45 ACP). We will see how this initial plan stands up to another couple weeks of research and a few more books; I won't actually pull the trigger on reloading equipment until after Christmas.

November 18, 2010, 11:19 PM	#3
frumious Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2009 Location: Carrollton TX Posts: 521	Hmmm...If you consider a somewhat-optimistic 500 rounds per hour then that's 3 hours per session, one session every two weeks This is possible with a good progressive that has a quick way to stage/refill primers. And of course no interruptions. Doing all one bullet weight during a session will also help, as there will be no stopping for die adjustments for the different bullets. That being said, if it were me I'd be wanting a bullet and/or case feeder around that level of output. And THAT being said, I would be irritated to no end that I couldn't find a bullet feeder that works for lead bullets, as that is what I personally shoot. It seems like all the bullet feeders (Dillon, RCBS, I'm guessing others too) specify non-lead. What's the deal? I mean there's Lee, they have a lead bullet feeder, but after having owned a Loadmaster I can say that if you have a Lee progressive then not having a bullet feeder will not be one of the problems you are no doubt having :-) One other thing I'd want at that output level in a progressive is auto-index, something not all progressives have. Preferably auto-index that can be deacitvated if I desire. -cls

November 18, 2010, 11:30 PM	#4
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	At the level you are shooting I would say a progressive press is warrented and would suggest a Lee Load Master in 9mm, it comes with everything (including dies, powder measure, and all parts except the bullet feeder (extra money) it does come with the case feeder and does not make any noise. The problem I see is that in 9mm your cost savings will be minimual in 45 ACP your savings will be much better. But either way the cost of bullets to load will be the real concern unless you buy in bulk. Good luck Jim

November 20, 2010, 12:01 PM	#8
testuser Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2010 Posts: 495	Sounds like a plan. I'd suggest starting with an RCBS 505 balance beam scale. It's one of those scales that just about everyone has. The 1500 is going be too slow for pistol charges, you won't get the real feel for how quick a turret is going to be using one. That product is best suited for rifle shooters. How about? - Lee Classic 4 Hole Turret Press - Lee Auto Prime (for off press priming) OR Lee Safety Prime to Prime on press - Shell plate for Lee Auto Prime (19 fits 9mm, I think) - RCBS 505 Scale - Lee Auto Disk Pro Measure - A funnel - Dies (Lee Factory Crimp die in their 4 die set is great. I use nothing but Lee dies for 12 calibers, but replace the Lee lock rings with Hornady. Works well and won't loosen on a turret press.) 1 lbs of Alliant Powder Pistol, which also happens to be great for .45 ACP it meters well in the Lee measure and won't pack much as badly due to turret vibrations. It will also give you factory velocities at starting loads (10% under max) with low pressures. Load data is on the Alliant Powder website. If you want to weigh each charge and then trickle powder you can, that's just unnecessary for pistol loading, even when making target loads. If that's your plan, though, you'll need a powder trickler. Press vibrations tend to settle the powder during operation, so don't forget to validate the charge after you've run the press through a cycle. Dump ten charges in the pan to get an average. Check a few to make sure the extreme spread is ok, then check periodically as you load. All measures have variation, so long as you're plus or minus 0.1 or 0.2 grains of your average and not close to max, then you're good to go. Most once fired brass companies (like my recent order from oncefiredbrass.com) tumble the brass for you. So, if you want to go with once fired, you're ok. I haven't used the Lee Safety Prime, but I do have an Auto Prime. Again, it's one of those tools that just about everyone has. They work. I have no idea how well the Safety Prime works, but probably best to start simple! There's almost zero learning curve for the auto prime. My preference is to prime off press. I just size and prime in big batches and store the ready-to-go brass in cheap, plastic tupperware from the grocery store. When I want to load I go to the turret, fill it with powder and starting banging out rounds. You can also substitute additional labor for faster presses. My brother helps me sometimes. For example, your wife sizes and you prime the brass. Oh, one more tip, if you crush a few cases while sizing, then take your shell plate and twist it so it's facing "backwards". This can sometimes be an issue with Lee presses. Ok, that's all I can think of for a new reloader on Lee equipment, anyway. Hope this helps. Last edited by testuser; November 20, 2010 at 12:17 PM.

November 20, 2010, 11:59 PM	#10
ArizonaRick Member Join Date: November 1, 2006 Location: Southern Missouri - Ozarks Posts: 89	Go Lee I have owned several Dillon progresives over the past 20 years( RL450, 550, 650, & Square Deal, they work great, but for the money I would buy the Lee Load Master for $219 complete with dies from Factory Sale (look up on web). Comes with case feeder, five die stations, optional bullet feeder..... tough to go wrong. It is equal to the Dillon 650 but more than half the price. I love Lee dies, especially the factory crimp die, and the lee collet die for rifle. If you have money to spare, the Dillon will give you many years of good service. Good luck.

November 21, 2010, 01:06 AM	#11
thump_rrr Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2010 Posts: 403	I wanted the Hornady LNL progressive press but since I'm just starting out I bought the Lee 50th anniversary kit and a few sets of their deluxe pistol dies, some additional breech lock bushings, and a kinetic hammer to pull bullets. The whole setup cost me less than $200 to get started. I have since added an ultrasonic cleaner and a tumbler and media separator so I'm now in for around $400 total. The only negative to this setup so far is the small size of the anniversary press but it's more than adequate to get started. For the ammount of ammo you're looking at producing I'd definitely be looking at a progressive though.

November 22, 2010, 11:17 AM	#12
demigod Junior member Join Date: March 13, 2008 Location: AZ Posts: 1,129	I find those case feeders to be repulsive for the average loader. I mean... if you're too lazy to grab a piece of brass and put it in the dang machine... I've run my dillon for many years now. And I've tried to take as much nonsense OFF of the machine as I can... not Add to it. I don't need and early primer or powder warning system. I opt to actually PAY ATTENTION at the bench, MAMA!!