Newbie Frustrated And Needs Help

Waketurb007 · March 9, 2009, 08:04 PM

I am reloading for 9MM using Berry's 115 grain RN plated bullets. It was recommended that I use Hodgdon Clays for powder because I also plan to load 40 and 45 later on.

I can't seem to find any load data for this combo. I am using "reloading guide for pistols" and the Hodgdon website, and I can't find anything. Being a newbie I am not sure what to do and want to be safe.

Ozzieman · March 9, 2009, 08:18 PM

Hornady’s latest manual does give loads for “clays univ” But in there powder chart they only list "HOD Clays", so I don’t know if the two are the same so I would try to check other data charts.
One thing to remember Clays is a very fast powder.
With that said they list a 115 GR bullet with "clays univ" of MIN:4.0 (1000FPS) and MAX: of 4.5 (1100 fps).
But I would suggest trying Win 231 for 9mm, its very clean and a little slower burning and will work very well with 40 and 45.
I would contact “Berry's” and ask them for a load.

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · March 9, 2009, 08:19 PM

work up a load using data for 115 grn Lead Round Nose (LRN). Plated bullets can be treated like lead bullets. Plated bullets are lead bullets with a thin copper plating. But, never use plated bullet data for lead bullets. It is safe to go the other way (using lead bullet data for plated).

Ozzieman · March 9, 2009, 08:25 PM

Better ignore that last. I went to the 45 ACP listing and noticed that they have both “CLAYS” and “CLAYS UNIV” listed.
The “CLAYS” for a 185 GR bullet on 45 ACP was listed as max of 4.9.
And a 200 GR bullet for “CLAYS UNIV” the max was 7.1
DO NOT USE THAT LOAD I LISTED ABOVE.

SL1 · March 10, 2009, 08:57 AM

Waketurb007,

Hodgdon "Clays" is NOT the same as "Universal Clays" or "International Clays". These other two powders are slower and take larger charge weights in a particular bullet/case combination. So, do not get confused and use data for those other two powders with "Clays" or you will damage our gun and probably hurt yourself.

Clays is a really fast powder. It uses very small charge weights, and has a very small range between min and max loads. That means it is easy to get an overcharge unless you have developed good loading practices and pay close attention AT ALL TIMES. So, it usually is not a good choice for beginners.

Some people like it for reduced loads with light bullets in small cases like the 9mm and 40 S&W, mainly because it is very clean-burning due to the high pressures it can create, even with loads that do not fill the case very much. But, it has a bad reputation for over-pressure spikes when people try to use it for full power loads with heavy bullets.

If you already have some, then I know you will end-up using it. SO, I will direct you to Hodgdon's data for lead bullets of the weights you intend to use for your various cartridges. They should be close enough, but start low and weigh all your charges. Also, use some technique to be SURE you don't put a double charge in a case!

If you don't already have Clays, then let me suggest that you start your reloading career with "Universal" (also known as "Universal Clays") or one of the even slower powders like "HS-6" or "Longshot." They can also be used in the 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. Universal is probably your best choice for a first powder, because it is clean-burning, easy metering, and can give good loads from moderately light to moderately heavy in the cartridges you want to load. Later, when you have your loading techniques worked out, you may want to get a faster powder for "mouse fart" light loads and a slower powder for max power loads. But, both of those types of loads should not be attemted until you have gained some experience and made your mistakes with more forgiving loads.

Please read a lot and ask questions when you don't understand. And, be really careful about what advice you take from the Internet, ESPECIALLY load data.

Stay safe and have fun.

SL1

Cloudpeak · March 10, 2009, 11:55 AM

Clays is great for 45 ACP. You might consider using W231 (or Hogdon HP38) for 9mm. W213 works fine for 45, too, but I load mainly Clays in the 45.

Cloudpeak

WESHOOT2 · March 10, 2009, 01:29 PM

Maybe Hodgdon doesn't think your desired application is appropriate (but spring for the $9 and buy Hodgdon's 2009 Annual Manual to check what they DO think. And publish).

I don't; I think, based on your desire to have one appropriate powder for 9x19, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP, your choice should be Accurate AA5.
(Why? Because it is a more appropriate burn rate, and has a sufficient history of published data, and very often provides good accuracy and velocity in those chamberings. It meters easily and repeatedly, burns cleanly, is economical both in price and charge weights, and is normally available.)

SL1 · March 10, 2009, 06:36 PM

I don't think that Hodgdon has any problem with Clays and plated bullets. They list Clays data for the 9mm with both lead and jacketed 115 gr bullets. They just don't produce data for ALL bullets.

I think Clays is suitable for plated bullets and use it with 155 gr Raniers in the .40 S&W.

My reason for steering the OP away from Clays is that he is new to reloading, and Clays is not as forgiving with newbie problems, especially in a small auto-loader case.

SL1

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · March 10, 2009, 06:46 PM

Like I sad in a previous post, start with the load data for the 115 grn lead RN. Most lead bullet data starting charge weight is under that of plated and jacketed bullet data....so you know this would be a safe starting point. If it does not cycle your slide, work the load up incrementally...maybe in .2 grn increments untill the firearm cycles reliably. I have done this in the past and have never had any problems.

Waketurb007 · March 11, 2009, 01:22 AM

Thanks for the replys. I did speak to the folks at Berry's. The do not publish their own load data. With that said, I gave them the load data that I found for LRN as well as the data for the jacketed for the powder I was going to use. They stated that either way I go, I should be fine.

With that having been said, I am going to start out using the LRN data. In the interest of safety using the lower end first.

I am going to look at other powders as well.

SL1 · March 11, 2009, 07:36 AM

Quote:

If it does not cycle your slide, work the load up incrementally...maybe in .2 grn increments untill the firearm cycles reliably.

Better use 0.1 grain steps in working up that load.

Hodgdon's data for the 115 gr LRN is just 3.0 grains to start and 3.4 grains max. The pressure increases about 6,000 psi over that range. So, you definitely want to work-up with SMALL steps with Clays in this application.

From my experience in the .40 S&W, you will have no problem telling the difference when you shoot loads with 0.1 grain difference in charge weights. That applies both to feeding and accuracy at the target.

SL1

madmo44mag · March 11, 2009, 07:43 AM

I load all three of these calibers and Aliant Power Pistol covers all three.
The down side is some muzzle flash but other than that it's great.
Plenty of load data posted and listed in re-loading books.
Works well in 38Spl as well.
Power Pistol was designed for auto loading pistols, that's why there is such a good range of loads with this powder.
It is also a very economical powder to load.
In 9mm about a 1,000 rds per lbs.

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · March 11, 2009, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Hodgdon's data for the 115 gr LRN is just 3.0 grains to start and 3.4 grains max. The pressure increases about 6,000 psi over that range. So, you definitely want to work-up with SMALL steps with Clays in this application.

+1 yeah I didn't realize there was that small of a margin b/t start and max.

WESHOOT2 · March 11, 2009, 08:10 AM

Why I suggested AA5 for "one powder / three cartridges".......

hikingman · March 11, 2009, 08:44 AM

Refer to #16 and #36 in the following burn rate chart, these appear to be the two powders you mentioned:

http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

Or search google's search engine under burn rate...

March 10, 2009, 01:29 PM	#7
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	reason Maybe Hodgdon doesn't think your desired application is appropriate (but spring for the $9 and buy Hodgdon's 2009 Annual Manual to check what they DO think. And publish). I don't; I think, based on your desire to have one appropriate powder for 9x19, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP, your choice should be Accurate AA5. (Why? Because it is a more appropriate burn rate, and has a sufficient history of published data, and very often provides good accuracy and velocity in those chamberings. It meters easily and repeatedly, burns cleanly, is economical both in price and charge weights, and is normally available.)

March 10, 2009, 06:46 PM	#9
IllinoisCoyoteHunter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 1,527	Like I sad in a previous post, start with the load data for the 115 grn lead RN. Most lead bullet data starting charge weight is under that of plated and jacketed bullet data....so you know this would be a safe starting point. If it does not cycle your slide, work the load up incrementally...maybe in .2 grn increments untill the firearm cycles reliably. I have done this in the past and have never had any problems. __________________ ~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~ ~NRA LIFE MEMBER~ ~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~

March 11, 2009, 01:22 AM	#10
Waketurb007 Member Join Date: April 1, 2008 Posts: 21	A Million Thanks Thanks for the replys. I did speak to the folks at Berry's. The do not publish their own load data. With that said, I gave them the load data that I found for LRN as well as the data for the jacketed for the powder I was going to use. They stated that either way I go, I should be fine. With that having been said, I am going to start out using the LRN data. In the interest of safety using the lower end first. I am going to look at other powders as well.

March 11, 2009, 08:10 AM	#14
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	yeah Why I suggested AA5 for "one powder / three cartridges".......

March 11, 2009, 08:44 AM	#15
hikingman Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2004 Location: Alabama Posts: 301	Refer to #16 and #36 in the following burn rate chart, these appear to be the two powders you mentioned: http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html Or search google's search engine under burn rate... __________________ NRA Life Member

March 9, 2009, 08:04 PM	#1
Waketurb007 Member Join Date: April 1, 2008 Posts: 21	Newbie Frustrated And Needs Help I am reloading for 9MM using Berry's 115 grain RN plated bullets. It was recommended that I use Hodgdon Clays for powder because I also plan to load 40 and 45 later on. I can't seem to find any load data for this combo. I am using "reloading guide for pistols" and the Hodgdon website, and I can't find anything. Being a newbie I am not sure what to do and want to be safe.

March 9, 2009, 08:18 PM	#2
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	Hornady’s latest manual does give loads for “clays univ” But in there powder chart they only list "HOD Clays", so I don’t know if the two are the same so I would try to check other data charts. One thing to remember Clays is a very fast powder. With that said they list a 115 GR bullet with "clays univ" of MIN:4.0 (1000FPS) and MAX: of 4.5 (1100 fps). But I would suggest trying Win 231 for 9mm, its very clean and a little slower burning and will work very well with 40 and 45. I would contact “Berry's” and ask them for a load.

March 9, 2009, 08:19 PM	#3
IllinoisCoyoteHunter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 1,527	work up a load using data for 115 grn Lead Round Nose (LRN). Plated bullets can be treated like lead bullets. Plated bullets are lead bullets with a thin copper plating. But, never use plated bullet data for lead bullets. It is safe to go the other way (using lead bullet data for plated). __________________ ~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~ ~NRA LIFE MEMBER~ ~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~

March 9, 2009, 08:25 PM	#4
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	Better ignore that last. I went to the 45 ACP listing and noticed that they have both “CLAYS” and “CLAYS UNIV” listed. The “CLAYS” for a 185 GR bullet on 45 ACP was listed as max of 4.9. And a 200 GR bullet for “CLAYS UNIV” the max was 7.1 DO NOT USE THAT LOAD I LISTED ABOVE.

March 10, 2009, 08:57 AM	#5
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Waketurb007, Hodgdon "Clays" is NOT the same as "Universal Clays" or "International Clays". These other two powders are slower and take larger charge weights in a particular bullet/case combination. So, do not get confused and use data for those other two powders with "Clays" or you will damage our gun and probably hurt yourself. Clays is a really fast powder. It uses very small charge weights, and has a very small range between min and max loads. That means it is easy to get an overcharge unless you have developed good loading practices and pay close attention AT ALL TIMES. So, it usually is not a good choice for beginners. Some people like it for reduced loads with light bullets in small cases like the 9mm and 40 S&W, mainly because it is very clean-burning due to the high pressures it can create, even with loads that do not fill the case very much. But, it has a bad reputation for over-pressure spikes when people try to use it for full power loads with heavy bullets. If you already have some, then I know you will end-up using it. SO, I will direct you to Hodgdon's data for lead bullets of the weights you intend to use for your various cartridges. They should be close enough, but start low and weigh all your charges. Also, use some technique to be SURE you don't put a double charge in a case! If you don't already have Clays, then let me suggest that you start your reloading career with "Universal" (also known as "Universal Clays") or one of the even slower powders like "HS-6" or "Longshot." They can also be used in the 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. Universal is probably your best choice for a first powder, because it is clean-burning, easy metering, and can give good loads from moderately light to moderately heavy in the cartridges you want to load. Later, when you have your loading techniques worked out, you may want to get a faster powder for "mouse fart" light loads and a slower powder for max power loads. But, both of those types of loads should not be attemted until you have gained some experience and made your mistakes with more forgiving loads. Please read a lot and ask questions when you don't understand. And, be really careful about what advice you take from the Internet, ESPECIALLY load data. Stay safe and have fun. SL1

March 10, 2009, 11:55 AM	#6
Cloudpeak Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2005 Location: Wyoming Posts: 288	Clays is great for 45 ACP. You might consider using W231 (or Hogdon HP38) for 9mm. W213 works fine for 45, too, but I load mainly Clays in the 45. Cloudpeak

March 10, 2009, 06:36 PM	#8
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	I don't think that Hodgdon has any problem with Clays and plated bullets. They list Clays data for the 9mm with both lead and jacketed 115 gr bullets. They just don't produce data for ALL bullets. I think Clays is suitable for plated bullets and use it with 155 gr Raniers in the .40 S&W. My reason for steering the OP away from Clays is that he is new to reloading, and Clays is not as forgiving with newbie problems, especially in a small auto-loader case. SL1

March 11, 2009, 07:43 AM	#12
madmo44mag Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: Ft.Worth, Texas Posts: 1,522	I load all three of these calibers and Aliant Power Pistol covers all three. The down side is some muzzle flash but other than that it's great. Plenty of load data posted and listed in re-loading books. Works well in 38Spl as well. Power Pistol was designed for auto loading pistols, that's why there is such a good range of loads with this powder. It is also a very economical powder to load. In 9mm about a 1,000 rds per lbs.