++P++ 40 S&W reloads???

TexasSeaRay · February 19, 2008, 10:55 PM

Last week a friend of mine from back in "the days" and I were shooting at one of our out-of-the way ranges and heard a major KAFREAKINGBOOM!

I wrote a bit about it on the "Help with crimping" thread.

Some guy, new to shooting and BRAND NEW to reloading blew up his gun and his hand loading "hot" 40 S&W rounds.

How hot?

The rangemaster's brother-in-law is an armorer for one of the big police departments around here and took a few of the rounds from the magazine that got blown out of the gun (Sig P229), pulled the bullets and measured the powder charges after confirming the powder and bullet make.

Here was this guy's loads:

Hornady XTP 180 gr JHP
average of the four rounds left, 8.7 grains of Accurate Arms #2! Accurate has a maximum load of 5.6 grains of AA#2 listed in their data sheets.

Average powder load of the round fired before the final kaboom round?

Zero. It was a squib load.

So this guy is playing with dynamite anyhow, doing the rapid fire thing as fast as he could pull the trigger, enjoying the "fire it was spitting out," gets a squib and follows it with a round loaded almost 50% over recommended max.

All we heard about the guy who blew up his gun and his hand is that he's sworn off reloading, and probably shooting.

No word on how much damage was done to his hand.

Jeff

Sevens · February 19, 2008, 11:18 PM

I knew it!
We can kick around the idea that the .40S&W runs a fairly high chamber pressure, and even more that a lot of brass floating around out there is suspect after being firing in unsupported Glock chambers (and you can easily see this with the naked eye by looking at the brass) but when I read your range report, I knew there was more to it than a "hot" load.

A "hot" load is one that's slightly over listed, published max loads.

This guy is g/d tool and the amount of harm he has done/can do/may do in the future is reprehensible.

If he's sworn off reloading, all I can say is, "Great, but sooner would have been better." If he's sworn off shooting too, even better. I can only hope his next hobby is something that doesn't involve any other people.

TexasSeaRay · February 20, 2008, 12:41 AM

Yeah, this rangemaster put in a call to Sig letting them know what he discovered and found out. They told him the guy was lucky his hand didn't get blown off.

What we're all wondering now is "How long until the lawsuit?"

Jeff

scsov509 · February 20, 2008, 01:14 AM

Quote:

8.7 grains of Accurate Arms #2!

Holy Lord that is a lot of #2! I've shot a lot of the 155 XTP's over 9.3 grains #7, so that just blows my mind to think someone was loading that hot with #2. And that is the average of the remaining rounds? So it's not like he doubled one charge and left another empty, we're talking the majority of his rounds were that much over pressure? Do you know if the squib stuck in the bore? Is it possible that the Sig was actually eatin' those hot loads until the squib obstructed the bore?

TexasSeaRay · February 20, 2008, 04:24 AM

Yeah, the Sig was actually eating those hot loads until the squib barely made it into the barrel.

Another reason I'm damn careful with my reloads, even moreso if I'm going to be doing any double or triple tapping.

Apparently this yokel wasn't even using scales OR a powder dispenser.

He was using--get this--the little yellow scoop that come with Lee dies. His friend, when interviewed by an off-duty cop who was doing the investigative "cover the range's backside" report, the guy's buddy (not the reloading genius) said he learned how to reload by watching "youtube" videos.

They'd both played around with black powder before, so when they put a match to a very small pile of AA#2 and it didn't POOF! the way black powder does, the genius (reloader and shooter) figured he could pack the cartridge full same as he used to do on his 44 caliber black powder cap&ball sixguns.

This detective just sent some of us out an e-mail of his findings. He put down on his OFFICIAL report that both of these yo-yo's need to be nominated for Darwin awards and that if he knew how to nominate them, he'd by-gawd do it himself.

Jeff

Sevens · February 20, 2008, 08:02 AM

If I had to take a guess, I would say that his Lee powder dipper was merely the vehicle by which the powder was transferred to the case. I doubt he was measuring at all. I'll bet he was simply dumping powder until it looked "right" or (more likely) until it looked "full!"

There is nothing at all inaccurate about the Lee powder dippers. The Lee dippers, if used with a repeatable technique are no different than say-- the Lee auto disc powder measure or any other volumetric powder dispenser. It's simply a set space, a volume, that tosses a similar charge each time if you do your part.

When I'm building the first 5 rounds in a new caliber, I use the Lee powder dipper in lieu of a powder trickler. It might have been a surprise to me the first time I scale-checked each charge from a dipper but it's not any more. They are quite consistent depending of course on the powder type and your technique.

I reloaded .38 special with Green Dot for four years with only a scale and a powder dipper before I ever got my first powder measure. I made darn good ammo with it!

The fact that he also has dabbled in black powder is also a telling bit. Black powder has always been measured by volume and not weight. Anyone else think that it was only a matter of time before this fellow dumped a dipperful of smokeless powder in to his favorite black powder smokestake and melted a colossal hole in it?

Jeff, I'm just glad nobody else was physically injured. I hope the range owners don't get dumped by their insurance carrier. I also hope we don't see ranges banning handloads, either. Man, the whole scenario is just plain ignorant.

FM12 · February 20, 2008, 08:15 AM

IIRC, there was a "How NOT to reload" video on youtube awhile back. I THINK the guy took his case and either poured it full or dipped the entire case in the powder, scooping the case full of powder.

.

Youtube and reloading is not a safe combination.

I saw a couple of brain surgeons on there the other day making napalm.

Thanks for posting this, Jeff.

And, I'm glad it wasn't a Glock!

Musketeer · February 20, 2008, 08:19 AM

Quote:

All we heard about the guy who blew up his gun and his hand is that he's sworn off reloading, and probably shooting.

That's good. If he had managed to kill himself he could have earned a Darwin Award.

Moron.

markr · February 20, 2008, 09:44 AM

Quote:

I also hope we don't see ranges banning handloads, either.

We have a real nice private indoor range around here comparable to a police shooting range, with the shooting stations and the retractable target thingy's. Unfortunatley they don't allow reloaded ammunition. They also don't allow Wolf ammunition for some reason

Unless you join a private club, the only place you can shoot reloads here is the state-run range, which neighbors managed to get shut down by court order for awhile, due to noise

The range is open again for the time being.

warrior poet · February 20, 2008, 10:05 AM

Ron White said it best, "You can't fix stupid."

TexasSeaRay · February 20, 2008, 11:37 AM

Quote:

I hope the range owners don't get dumped by their insurance carrier. I also hope we don't see ranges banning handloads, either.

That's what the range owner is worried about and why me and my buddy, the two experienced shooters/reloaders a couple of bays over from the Mensa brothers and the rangemaster are all treating this like a criminal case.

Gather your evidence, interview your witnesses and make a case against the Mensa brothers.

The charge?

Stupidity in the first degree.

Ridiculous that our society has come to this.

Jeff

Sevens · February 20, 2008, 11:57 AM

I'd like to think these things are cyclical, and work themselves out over time. Like the old broad that dumped hot McDonald's coffee in her lap and sued them for $75M. We have legislation against that these days, and legislation that's supposed to keep people from suing the gun manufacturer's when their neighbor's kid finds a gun in their nightstand.

I'm not a fan of MORE legislation in government, but it seems like that is the most logical defense against these folks and their attorneys.

But then, I'm an optimist.

freakshow10mm · February 20, 2008, 12:11 PM

SIGs are designed to take a squib round half way through the barrel and fire a live round. The barrel must not burst. This is a specification listed in the weapon selection criteria for IIRC the Border Patrol. There was a thread on GT about it with the whole listing of the requirements.

Every pistol failed the "squib test" except the SIG. They got the contract.

lee n. field · February 20, 2008, 12:36 PM

Quote:

new to shooting and BRAND NEW to reloading blew up his gun and his hand loading "hot" 40 S&W rounds.

RTFM.

Did he miss all those warnings in the load data? Did he miss all those special warnings in the .40S&W data? Did he read the part about starting 10% under published maximum, and working up?

Quote:

He was using--get this--the little yellow scoop that come with Lee dies. His friend, when interviewed by an off-duty cop who was doing the investigative "cover the range's backside" report, the guy's buddy (not the reloading genius) said he learned how to reload by watching "youtube" videos.

I've got the Lee .40 die set, scoop and data sheet. I'll check to see what it says.

Yoo-toob. <sigh>. One of those postmodern types, that like the visuals and don't go in for reading and don't like the concept of absolute truth, perhaps?

SL1 · February 20, 2008, 07:57 PM

Jeff,

I am not (yet) that familar with semi-automatic, centerfire pistols, so please excuse my ignorance if it is apparent in the following question.

Your account of the kaboom seems to imply that firing the primer in a powderless cartridge would not only stick a bullet in the barrel, but also cycle the action to load another cartridge that does have powder, so that merely pulling the trigger a second time would fire a cartridge into an obstructed barrel. Is that true, or does the shooter need to "clear" the gun after firing the squib in order to chamber the next cartridge from the magazine?

If it is not necessary to clear the gun, it seems that "double-tapping" is a truly hazardous practice unless using ammunition of the highest quality.

Thank you or anybody else for enlightening me.

SL1

TexasSeaRay · February 20, 2008, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Every pistol failed the "squib test" except the SIG. They got the contract.

(grin) I don't think this particular gun read about those testing criteria.

SL1--I hear what you're saying and asking, and I'm a bit puzzled as well. My and my old partner were in a different bay (separate rooms) when this kaboom happened.

I have had primer-only loads cycle the action on my old Series 70 gov't that I inherited from the military. I saw primer-only loads cycle some of the raceguns I used to shoot against in IPSC--modified spring kits, etc.

My suspicion is as sloppy as this guy was with his reloading, it may not have been just a primer-only round that squibbed on him. He may have had just enough in there to have the bullet barely clear the chamber while cycling the action.

Bottom line is, nobody knows right now.

I'm guessing it's going to start staying pretty mum until everything DOES get settled and figured out.

Jeff

Alleykat · February 21, 2008, 07:57 PM

The use of AA#2 with a heavy bullet in a round like the .40, which offers little latitude for error anyhow, is just plain risky.

WESHOOT2 · February 22, 2008, 07:44 AM

It is correctly spelled "yourube"

February 19, 2008, 10:55 PM	#1
TexasSeaRay Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 810	++P++ 40 S&W reloads??? Last week a friend of mine from back in "the days" and I were shooting at one of our out-of-the way ranges and heard a major KAFREAKINGBOOM! I wrote a bit about it on the "Help with crimping" thread. Some guy, new to shooting and BRAND NEW to reloading blew up his gun and his hand loading "hot" 40 S&W rounds. How hot? The rangemaster's brother-in-law is an armorer for one of the big police departments around here and took a few of the rounds from the magazine that got blown out of the gun (Sig P229), pulled the bullets and measured the powder charges after confirming the powder and bullet make. Here was this guy's loads: Hornady XTP 180 gr JHP average of the four rounds left, 8.7 grains of Accurate Arms #2! Accurate has a maximum load of 5.6 grains of AA#2 listed in their data sheets. Average powder load of the round fired before the final kaboom round? Zero. It was a squib load. So this guy is playing with dynamite anyhow, doing the rapid fire thing as fast as he could pull the trigger, enjoying the "fire it was spitting out," gets a squib and follows it with a round loaded almost 50% over recommended max. All we heard about the guy who blew up his gun and his hand is that he's sworn off reloading, and probably shooting. No word on how much damage was done to his hand. Jeff

February 20, 2008, 08:02 AM	#6
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,758	If I had to take a guess, I would say that his Lee powder dipper was merely the vehicle by which the powder was transferred to the case. I doubt he was measuring at all. I'll bet he was simply dumping powder until it looked "right" or (more likely) until it looked "full!" There is nothing at all inaccurate about the Lee powder dippers. The Lee dippers, if used with a repeatable technique are no different than say-- the Lee auto disc powder measure or any other volumetric powder dispenser. It's simply a set space, a volume, that tosses a similar charge each time if you do your part. When I'm building the first 5 rounds in a new caliber, I use the Lee powder dipper in lieu of a powder trickler. It might have been a surprise to me the first time I scale-checked each charge from a dipper but it's not any more. They are quite consistent depending of course on the powder type and your technique. I reloaded .38 special with Green Dot for four years with only a scale and a powder dipper before I ever got my first powder measure. I made darn good ammo with it! The fact that he also has dabbled in black powder is also a telling bit. Black powder has always been measured by volume and not weight. Anyone else think that it was only a matter of time before this fellow dumped a dipperful of smokeless powder in to his favorite black powder smokestake and melted a colossal hole in it? Jeff, I'm just glad nobody else was physically injured. I hope the range owners don't get dumped by their insurance carrier. I also hope we don't see ranges banning handloads, either. Man, the whole scenario is just plain ignorant. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

February 20, 2008, 11:57 AM	#12
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,758	I'd like to think these things are cyclical, and work themselves out over time. Like the old broad that dumped hot McDonald's coffee in her lap and sued them for $75M. We have legislation against that these days, and legislation that's supposed to keep people from suing the gun manufacturer's when their neighbor's kid finds a gun in their nightstand. I'm not a fan of MORE legislation in government, but it seems like that is the most logical defense against these folks and their attorneys. But then, I'm an optimist. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

February 20, 2008, 07:57 PM	#15
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Action cycled byb primer alone? Jeff, I am not (yet) that familar with semi-automatic, centerfire pistols, so please excuse my ignorance if it is apparent in the following question. Your account of the kaboom seems to imply that firing the primer in a powderless cartridge would not only stick a bullet in the barrel, but also cycle the action to load another cartridge that does have powder, so that merely pulling the trigger a second time would fire a cartridge into an obstructed barrel. Is that true, or does the shooter need to "clear" the gun after firing the squib in order to chamber the next cartridge from the magazine? If it is not necessary to clear the gun, it seems that "double-tapping" is a truly hazardous practice unless using ammunition of the highest quality. Thank you or anybody else for enlightening me. SL1

February 21, 2008, 07:57 PM	#17
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	The use of AA#2 with a heavy bullet in a round like the .40, which offers little latitude for error anyhow, is just plain risky. Last edited by Alleykat; February 22, 2008 at 11:40 AM.

February 19, 2008, 11:18 PM	#2
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,758	I knew it! We can kick around the idea that the .40S&W runs a fairly high chamber pressure, and even more that a lot of brass floating around out there is suspect after being firing in unsupported Glock chambers (and you can easily see this with the naked eye by looking at the brass) but when I read your range report, I knew there was more to it than a "hot" load. A "hot" load is one that's slightly over listed, published max loads. This guy is g/d tool and the amount of harm he has done/can do/may do in the future is reprehensible. If he's sworn off reloading, all I can say is, "Great, but sooner would have been better." If he's sworn off shooting too, even better. I can only hope his next hobby is something that doesn't involve any other people. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

February 20, 2008, 12:41 AM	#3
TexasSeaRay Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 810	Yeah, this rangemaster put in a call to Sig letting them know what he discovered and found out. They told him the guy was lucky his hand didn't get blown off. What we're all wondering now is "How long until the lawsuit?" Jeff

February 20, 2008, 04:24 AM	#5
TexasSeaRay Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 810	Yeah, the Sig was actually eating those hot loads until the squib barely made it into the barrel. Another reason I'm damn careful with my reloads, even moreso if I'm going to be doing any double or triple tapping. Apparently this yokel wasn't even using scales OR a powder dispenser. He was using--get this--the little yellow scoop that come with Lee dies. His friend, when interviewed by an off-duty cop who was doing the investigative "cover the range's backside" report, the guy's buddy (not the reloading genius) said he learned how to reload by watching "youtube" videos. They'd both played around with black powder before, so when they put a match to a very small pile of AA#2 and it didn't POOF! the way black powder does, the genius (reloader and shooter) figured he could pack the cartridge full same as he used to do on his 44 caliber black powder cap&ball sixguns. This detective just sent some of us out an e-mail of his findings. He put down on his OFFICIAL report that both of these yo-yo's need to be nominated for Darwin awards and that if he knew how to nominate them, he'd by-gawd do it himself. Jeff

February 20, 2008, 08:15 AM	#7
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	IIRC, there was a "How NOT to reload" video on youtube awhile back. I THINK the guy took his case and either poured it full or dipped the entire case in the powder, scooping the case full of powder.. Youtube and reloading is not a safe combination. I saw a couple of brain surgeons on there the other day making napalm. Thanks for posting this, Jeff. And, I'm glad it wasn't a Glock!

February 20, 2008, 10:05 AM	#10
warrior poet Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2007 Location: Whereever Uncle Sam wants to put me Posts: 415	Ron White said it best, "You can't fix stupid."

February 20, 2008, 12:11 PM	#13
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	SIGs are designed to take a squib round half way through the barrel and fire a live round. The barrel must not burst. This is a specification listed in the weapon selection criteria for IIRC the Border Patrol. There was a thread on GT about it with the whole listing of the requirements. Every pistol failed the "squib test" except the SIG. They got the contract.

February 22, 2008, 07:44 AM	#18
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	internet spelling error It is correctly spelled "yourube"