Picked up bad habits in IDPA/USPSA?

FM12 · February 6, 2008, 01:20 PM

I was wondering if any one shooting these courses think you have picked up any bad, unsafe, or dangerous habits?

The times I've shot have made me realize later that once you start the course run, thers no stopping until you're thru, ie it's always "run,gun,stop". Very little real time to look for alternative solutions, slow down to better analyze the scene, etc.

This is not a flame on the sport itself, just wondering.

Thanks.

omega8omega · February 6, 2008, 02:32 PM

When one is shooting IPSC there are too many eyes on him,(beside range officer - everyone is watching guy running a stage and everyone wants to come home safe and sound) and no way one can form unsafe habit - DQ will prevent it

redbeard55 · February 6, 2008, 09:39 PM

I agree with Omega. In fact I had picked up a few bad habits after years of informal practice. Having someone watch your every move results in a chance to get rid of your bad habits.

DonR101395 · February 6, 2008, 09:47 PM

IMO if you try to "play the game" it has the potential to lead to bad habits. Not safety and gun handling habits, but use of concealment type habits. If you use it as a "training session" and don't worry about being the fastest it's less likely. It's all the way you want to play it. The exceptions are the guys who can use it as a "training session" and are still fast enough to place at the top.

omega8omega · February 6, 2008, 11:41 PM

Quote:

concealment type habits

What is that? Mexican style carry?
Sorry, I did not understand you

Sigma 40 Blaster · February 7, 2008, 10:48 AM

I think what he's talking about is using some kind of tactical awareness (shooting targets in order of threat and using cover).

I shot my first IPSC match last week. There was one stage that basically just said to shoot the targets in the order you see them.

Brief stage description...shooters box is a long sideways rectangle with a long barricade about 7 yards in front of you. You start middle/right of the box.

To your right were 6 BG's, two behind a barrel, all of them are slightly hidden by the long barricade.

To the far left are eight BG's, two rows of four stacked on top of each other, to the right of those are four fall down steels about 5 yards behind the barricade.

The hardcore run and gun guys didn't utilize cover in the least. They jumped out at the BG's to the right, shot right through the barrels. Ran all the way to the left, confronted all 8 BGs and 4 steels from wide open. So from that perspective you are learning some bad habits like not assessing which target poses the most threat to you, not learning how to use cover to minimize the danger of you being shot. I personally do not get caught up in the run and gun hype, I shoot the way I want to and don't worry about the scores or rankings.

Lurper · February 7, 2008, 10:56 AM

Quote:

The hardcore run and gun guys didn't utilize cover in the least. They jumped out at the BG's to the right, shot right through the barrels. Ran all the way to the left, confronted all 8 BGs and 4 steels from wide open. So from that perspective you are learning some bad habits like not assessing which target poses the most threat to you, not learning how to use cover to minimize the danger of you being shot. I personally do not get caught up in the run and gun hype, I shoot the way I want to and don't worry about the scores or rankings.

Funny, last time I checked and all of the research I have done has shown that none of those so called "bad habits" would effect a sd shooting. The single most important skill you can develop is the ability to hit the target as quickly as possible. Cover is rarely if ever a factor in a defensive shooting except on those situations that unfold slowly. Neither is threat assessment - the time you spend assessing could get you killed. When it's time to shoot, you should be shooting, nothing else. What kind of bad habits can you develop? Let's see: safe gun handling under pressure, engaging multiple targets under pressure, reloading under pressure, moving safely under pressure, and countless others. You should fear for your safety and that of others.

TexasSeaRay · February 7, 2008, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Funny, last time I checked and all of the research I have done has shown that none of those so called "bad habits" would effect a sd shooting. The single most important skill you can develop is the ability to hit the target as quickly as possible. Cover is rarely if ever a factor in a defensive shooting except on those situations that unfold slowly. Neither is threat assessment - the time you spend assessing could get you killed. When it's time to shoot, you should be shooting, nothing else. What kind of bad habits can you develop? Let's see: safe gun handling under pressure, engaging multiple targets under pressure, reloading under pressure, moving safely under pressure, and countless others. You should fear for your safety and that of others.

Holy cow.

Honest question for you: How many--if any--honest-to-god actual shootings have you personally been involved in where YOU had to pull the trigger and it was an actual life-or-death situation for either yourself, your partner, your spouse/family or someone else?

I ask this because we are now discussing the even possibility of drawing on and taking another human being's life. If you have not been there, it is impossible to even project with any authority what it will be like, what it will feel like, how you will react, how you will survive, how you will mentally and emotionally deal with the aftermath, etc.

I am a fan of IPSC and shot it for years back in my law enforcement days. I am also one of those individuals who has had to use his weapon in life or death situations far too many times in my professional past. I had to work very hard to keep my IPSC mentality and approach separate from my real mentality and approach. So did the other four agents in our office who shot IPSC. And all of them had also been in life or death gun situations.

Fact: Cardboard and poppers do not shoot back.

Fact: Cardboard and poppers do not move nearly as fast or erratic as live targets do.

Fact: Cardboard and poppers do not sue you.

Fact: Cardboard and poppers do not have contact with OPR after they have been shot.

Fact: Rare is the department or agency that will allow you to carry a racegun in a race holster with lightened (ie, barely major) rounds as your duty weapon and ammo.

I learned about real shoots the hard way. My first real experiences in the service resulted in a purple heart with two clusters. My civilian experience in LE was primarily undercover and working with organized "out-of-towners" who were always well-armed, well-protected and whose protective details rarely hesitated to draw and fire on you. I've had two extended hospital stays thanks to being outnumbered and with no chance to retreat. The last time was the final straw when I turned in my B&C from my hospital bed.

I've also worn way too much black tape over my badge and flinched at way two many 21-gun salutes during my years in that business.

IPSC is a game. Nothing more. Nothing less. You can--and should--develop some good shooting habits. Good shooting habits transfer into all sorts of situations. But unfortunately, so do bad ones.

What I liked--and still like--about IPSC is the rapid target acquistion and aimpoint skills you can develop; so long as the participant never forgets that cardboard doesn't shoot back and is rarely stationary.

I like the fact that most IPSC courses have you moving and all have you starting from a draw.

I ABSOLUTELY like the safety that ISPC teaches. I like the friendships and friendly (most of the time) competitive nature that surrounds the IPSC culture.

But there are a lot of disconnects between the classrom, the IPSC playground, the books, forums, etc and the real world the second you draw your weapon and pull the trigger.

It's important to always, always bear that in mind.

Jeff

omega8omega · February 7, 2008, 12:32 PM

Jeff, great post.
Thank you for your service, Sir

Agree 100% - ISPC is a game of fast shooting, not jumping, rolling, crawling, covering, playing cops and robbers, etc. For that one can buy paint gun.

RickB · February 7, 2008, 01:25 PM

The "bad habit" that IPSC emphasizes, is the search-and-destroy mentality. At the sound of the buzzer, you move downrange, farther and farther into "trouble", which is totally at odds with what should be an instinct to get the heck out of there. IPSC is an exceptionally good way to develop and maintain fast, competent gunhandling, but there's little about it that can be translated into self-defense tactics.

DonR101395 · February 7, 2008, 02:34 PM

Quote:

What is that? Mexican style carry?
Sorry, I did not understand you

Sigma hit what I was talking about as well as a few other. Effective use of cover and concealment. If you say that it's not important that's because all of your experience is on the range.

Sigma 40 Blaster · February 7, 2008, 03:12 PM

Thank you Jeff (TexasSeaRay).

I have no military or LE experience but common sense tells me that if someone, especially multiple individuals, are armed and mean to harm me I need to cover myself up as much as possible and worry about those who have the greatest opportunity to harm me first.

Sure I'm a good enough shot but being 6'4" and 330 pounds I have a WHOLE LOT for a bad guy to hit. Knowing that I took one or two of a group before they kill me isn't a consolation. In reality, I think any IPSC or IDPA scenario would often end with the GG very dead...that's why it's a fun game. You get to be James Bond, Jack Bauer, Rambo, or whoever you want to be.

RickB also made a good point, search and destroy is a mode I would go in to get a loved one out of danger...other than that I'm shooting and falling back as fast as humanly possible.

At the end of the day it's a FUN game, I will never win any matches, will probably never even earn a ranking although in IDPA I'm just a hair away from being a sharpshooter. I know that because I'm not running full speed unless I'm exposed with no cover, I'm using cover when available and trying to take out BG's in the order that they mean to do me harm (not in the quickest possible way with the least amount and shortest target transitions), and I'm shooting for the fun and challenge of it.

If someone uses IPSC for training they will not last very long if the you know what ever hits the you know what.

Lurper, I do agree with you if we're talking about a very close and fast one on one or maybe two on one confrontation. Time from holster to shots fired will make the difference of who walks away. I have yet to shoot a scenario like that (one or two close attackers) yet.

If there are multiple bad guys closing in FAST I think being able to quickly decide who needs to "get it" first and where I safely fall back to is first priority.

1SOW · February 7, 2008, 09:37 PM

I think some are missing the basic premise of USPSA-IPSC that
it's A GAME/SPORT.
Even IDPA that somewhat emphasizes cover, has been 'gamed' with trick guns, ammo and holsters and aggressiveness
If you enjoy the game, play. If it's wrong for you, don't.
AASA is a great option. It's pure old world/wild West shooting competetion--mano a mano trick guns and all.
ALL ARE GAMES THAT USE GUNS INSTEAD OF DICE!
eye-hand coordination
sight acquisition
trigger
familiarity with the gun/user relationship (I do okay with CZ & Sig) to emphasize sights, breathing and trigger--Shoot bullseye
etc. some of these can be useful in other endeavers

P.S. And ALL The "GAMES" ARE LOTS OF FUN!

Lurper · February 8, 2008, 12:05 PM

I have, I have also consulted and trained military and LE organizations, but whether or not I have is immaterial. Some of the most respected authorities in the industry have not. It bears no relevance. Secondly, experience in the military (yours, mine or anyone else's) or as an LE has no bearing on civilian shootings. Totally different settings.

Whether targets shoot back or not is immaterial. The single most important skill to develop is the ability to hit the target quickly. Seeking cover when you should be shooting will get you killed. A recent study by the Force Science Institute indicated that in the majority of the 400+ shootings the studied, cover was either not available or the shooting started and was fininshed before there was time to seek cover. Use of cover is only effective before the shooting starts. Unfortunately particularly for civilians the situations usually don't unfold that way. When it's time to shoot, you need to shoot and hit your target. There is only one certain way to ensure your safety: remove the threat. 70% of the time, the person who scores the first hit wins the fight. Common sense should tell you that you want to score the first hit.

You would do well to study civilian shootings. You would find that a lot of what is being taught in many of the schools is lacking. I don't pull this stuff out of the air, I have been doing this for 25 years now and have studied countless civilian shootings. I base my opinions on my experience, that of my associates and the research I have done. They are sometimes counter to what some teach because I haven't drank the "tacticoolaid".
The minute someone makes a statement like: "what you learn on the 'square range' doesn't apply to the 'real' world", I know I am dealing with a "tacticoolaid" drinker. The belief that somehow the mechanics of shooting change when it is a SD shooting is absurd. Some of the legendary gunfighters touted competition as one of the things that enabled them to prevail. Just like teaching reloads with retention for civilians. Show me a civilian shooting where the retained magazine was the determining factor. Tell me how the much more complex magazine manipulation makes shooting more effective.

No, you probably won't face multiple attackers and fire thirty rounds in a SD situation. You probably won't need to reload, draw, move or shoot from inside, over or around something. But that's not what is important. What is important is that you are learning to hit the target quickly under pressure in and from varying positions. That is a skill that is much more likely to save your life than learning how to clear your house or seek cover.

As for the mentality, that would only be an issue if you mind could not differentiate between a match and a real shooting.

I'm off to the range to practice more "bad habits!"

Lurper · February 8, 2008, 02:33 PM

One other question:
If IPSC builds bad habits and what you do on the "sqaure range" has nothing to do with the "Real" world, why do military and LE organizations seek out and pay lots of money to learn from the top IPSC shooters?

DonR101395 · February 8, 2008, 03:24 PM

Lurper,
I don't think anyone said that it doesn't have any applicability. What was said was that it teaches poor use of cover and concealment; which is absolutely applicable in a home defense scenario; much more so than gunning down 5, 6, 7 or more non-moving targets. I've seen guys run a stage using concealment effective and not place and guys have no regard for concealment and win. Neither was wrong, both got what they wanted out of the stage.
IDPA/USPSA is absolutely good at firing under stress, safe gun handling and quick accurate target acquisition and shooting.
Magazine retention is situational dependent, teaching to always drop or always retain are both wrong based on my experience and study. Conditioning to think under pressure is much more important. I can't think of a single civilian shooting where the shooter was required to to a tac reload, but I also don't know of one where it got a civilian shooter killed.
To answer your other question top shooters are sought out to teach good shooting, I've attended many of them and some are better than others with regards to tactics, but all of them are good at teaching the shooting. Blackwater teaches a 6 day custom course for my unit; we use it as part of our spin up before deployments. We chose them based on three things, excellent shooting and driving instruction, their willingness to supply instructors familiar with the current TTP being used for low visibility operations(i.e. CCW in an NPE, criminal threat recognition and response i.e.things that go bump in the night at the team house or attempted mugging/kidnapping), and their excellent training facilities. We use other places for FOF, combatives etc.
IMHO, there is no wrong way, some ways are better than other ways and it's up to the individual to determine his training and what he feels is applicable to his life situation.

Lurper · February 8, 2008, 04:42 PM

Quote:

What was said was that it teaches poor use of cover and concealment; which is absolutely applicable in a home defense scenario

Which is one of my salient points:
For civilians, use of cover is not important or as important as the ability to hit your target quickly. For a couple of reasons: First, how much true "cover" do most people have in their homes? Secondly, cover as applied to civilian shootings (like tactics) is almost never available except in those situations which unfold slowly (which is when you should seek cover; before the shooting starts). Thirdly, while you are seeking cover, your assailant is targeting you. Fourth, you use up one of your biggest assests: time (the other is distance). It may take you a second (at best) to seek cover - in one second, I can hit the target 6 times if I have my pistol in my hand and at least once if I have to draw. The same applies to assessing the threat. That should also take place before the shooting starts. Don't worry about which target poses more of a threat, just shoot. I would start with the closest. The reason that it is of minor importance is that you have no idea how the person who you did not engage is going to react. He may see your gun and run, he may see you shoot his accomplice and surrender, he may do any number of things, but basing your actions on what you think he may or may not do is not wise. Remember, we are talking about civilians here, not Law Enforcement, Military, Bodyguards or Security Personnel.

Most of the time it is one on one or two on one, not hordes of bg's as I stated before. Most of the time the shooting part of the confrontation is over in seconds. More than half the time it is likely to occur in your home. More than half the time it will be in limited lighting. The overwhelming majority of the time, you will not even fire a shot. But when you do, the one factor that will play the biggest role in your survival is how fast you hit your target. That is something that IPSC definately teaches.

Don, my question was rhetorical. I know exactly why. It was for those who think that the mechanics of shooting somehow change when it is a SD situation. None of the guys I know (myself included) teach tactics to the Military or LE communities, we teach the mechanics of shooting. That's what we excell at. As John Shaw told me about the SAS guys I was teaching: "Let them teach you tactics, but don't let them tell you how to shoot!" I wouldn't dream of evaluating or trying to teach a military or LE organization tactics. Too many variables and lots of ways to accomplish the goal. Plus, most of those guys have forgotten more than I will ever know.

When it comes to civilians however, that is a totally different arena.

DonR101395 · February 8, 2008, 05:34 PM

For the most part I think we are agreeing. I'll never discount the ability to shoot fast and accurate. It's just not the reality with most gun owners who buy guns for protection.
I haven't been to Mid-South in several years (95-6ish) Made one trip before we changed leadership. I'd love to go back sometime, but like you already know; you guys are hard to get slots with; which is a good thing. We went through a strictly in unit training regime

for a while, then a anywhere but Mid-South regime:barf:

and finally got leadership with some brains.
BTW: There is very little to no cover in modern homes in the U.S. only concealment

RickB · February 8, 2008, 05:55 PM

So, a quick Bill Drill is all I'll ever need for self defense?

Lurper · February 8, 2008, 06:12 PM

Quote:

So, a quick Bill Drill is all I'll ever need for self defense?

Your words, not mine. But, learning how to do a proper Bill Drill quickly will do a lot more to save your life than learning how to use cover or tactical reloads will (as a civilian).

It aint rocket science, do a little research and the inaccuracies of what some people teach will jump right out at you.

RickB · February 8, 2008, 06:51 PM

"Don't let the SAS guys teach you how to shoot" cuts both ways, as you note. Advocating no tactics is, in itself, advocating a tactic. Don't seek cover. Don't get out of the line of fire. Draw and shoot fast. It's a great skill, but it's not much of a tactic. A lot of people who train, and put their training to use, say, "train as you fight, because you will fight as you train", and if that's the case, I don't think I'd practice standing in the open and shooting. I don't mean to be totally dismissive, as most all of my own gunhandling skill has come from weekly IPSC matches over the last ten years, but gunhandling is only a small part of self-defense, and I hope, "when the balloon goes up", that I don't just stand there and shoot.

Lurper · February 8, 2008, 08:56 PM

Quote:

I don't think I'd practice standing in the open and shooting.

Whether you practice it or not, that is how most civilian encounters go down. It also makes sense to make that the focus of your training. Most people have limited time and budget. How do you think those are better spent - going to a tacticool school, learning how to clear your house or storm a fortified structure - or going to a school which may not have a shoot house but can teach you how to hit the target quickly? Read for yourself, the information is there.

Also, you'll note that I didn't say "never seek cover". What I said was if the situation allows, seek cover before the shooting starts and seeking cover when you should be shooting will get you killed. I stand by those statements. Tactics are what military and SWAT teams use, strategy is far more important to a civilian. Strategy and the ability to hit your target quickly.

TexasSeaRay · February 8, 2008, 11:55 PM

Quote:

but whether or not I have is immaterial. Some of the most respected authorities in the industry have not. It bears no relevance.

And right there is where I quit reading.

Things are a little different when you're getting shot at. Things are real different when you're getting shot at and bleeding as a result.

An old pal of mine from our former unit always said that it was like having someone who was an expert with Microsoft Flight Simulator swearing that flying a real airplane was no different--instruments are instruments, stalls are stalls, and crashes are crashes.

Real life & death situations don't come with reset buttons or do-over options.

Microsoft Flight Simulator is a game. Pure and simple. IPSC is a game. Pure and simple. Both have a number of useful functions and advantages to them. But if you believe that both of them are "how it really is," then you're going to end up in a real world of hurt.

Jeff

Lurper · February 9, 2008, 02:23 AM

Guess you missed the first two words in that sentence. Regardless, military combat and LE confrontations are totally different. Surviving a gunfight doesn't make one an expert, it makes one a survivor. As I said, the information is available and it speaks for itself.

WESHOOT2 · February 9, 2008, 08:28 AM

Any 'habit' except safety-related is bad, unless we're talking specific shooting skills.

As someone here already mentioned, armed encounters are dynamic, with no rule or logic for guidance.

Suggest shooting sports great for gun-handling, but less than ideal for tactics or habits.

My habit is to run screaming like a girl the other way.....

February 6, 2008, 01:20 PM	#1
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	Picked up bad habits in IDPA/USPSA? I was wondering if any one shooting these courses think you have picked up any bad, unsafe, or dangerous habits? The times I've shot have made me realize later that once you start the course run, thers no stopping until you're thru, ie it's always "run,gun,stop". Very little real time to look for alternative solutions, slow down to better analyze the scene, etc. This is not a flame on the sport itself, just wondering. Thanks.

February 7, 2008, 09:37 PM	#13
1SOW Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: South TX Posts: 269	GAMES with GUNS instead Of DICE. I think some are missing the basic premise of USPSA-IPSC that it's A GAME/SPORT. Even IDPA that somewhat emphasizes cover, has been 'gamed' with trick guns, ammo and holsters and aggressiveness If you enjoy the game, play. If it's wrong for you, don't. AASA is a great option. It's pure old world/wild West shooting competetion--mano a mano trick guns and all. ALL ARE GAMES THAT USE GUNS INSTEAD OF DICE! eye-hand coordination sight acquisition trigger familiarity with the gun/user relationship (I do okay with CZ & Sig) to emphasize sights, breathing and trigger--Shoot bullseye etc. some of these can be useful in other endeavers P.S. And ALL The "GAMES" ARE LOTS OF FUN!

February 9, 2008, 08:28 AM	#25
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	I have an opinion Any 'habit' except safety-related is bad, unless we're talking specific shooting skills. As someone here already mentioned, armed encounters are dynamic, with no rule or logic for guidance. Suggest shooting sports great for gun-handling, but less than ideal for tactics or habits. My habit is to run screaming like a girl the other way.....

February 6, 2008, 02:32 PM	#2
omega8omega Member Join Date: April 20, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 38	When one is shooting IPSC there are too many eyes on him,(beside range officer - everyone is watching guy running a stage and everyone wants to come home safe and sound) and no way one can form unsafe habit - DQ will prevent it

February 6, 2008, 09:39 PM	#3
redbeard55 Member Join Date: November 16, 2005 Posts: 55	I agree with Omega. In fact I had picked up a few bad habits after years of informal practice. Having someone watch your every move results in a chance to get rid of your bad habits.

February 6, 2008, 09:47 PM	#4
DonR101395 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Location: NWFL Posts: 3,031	IMO if you try to "play the game" it has the potential to lead to bad habits. Not safety and gun handling habits, but use of concealment type habits. If you use it as a "training session" and don't worry about being the fastest it's less likely. It's all the way you want to play it. The exceptions are the guys who can use it as a "training session" and are still fast enough to place at the top.

February 7, 2008, 10:48 AM	#6
Sigma 40 Blaster Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2007 Location: East Texas Posts: 997	I think what he's talking about is using some kind of tactical awareness (shooting targets in order of threat and using cover). I shot my first IPSC match last week. There was one stage that basically just said to shoot the targets in the order you see them. Brief stage description...shooters box is a long sideways rectangle with a long barricade about 7 yards in front of you. You start middle/right of the box. To your right were 6 BG's, two behind a barrel, all of them are slightly hidden by the long barricade. To the far left are eight BG's, two rows of four stacked on top of each other, to the right of those are four fall down steels about 5 yards behind the barricade. The hardcore run and gun guys didn't utilize cover in the least. They jumped out at the BG's to the right, shot right through the barrels. Ran all the way to the left, confronted all 8 BGs and 4 steels from wide open. So from that perspective you are learning some bad habits like not assessing which target poses the most threat to you, not learning how to use cover to minimize the danger of you being shot. I personally do not get caught up in the run and gun hype, I shoot the way I want to and don't worry about the scores or rankings.

February 7, 2008, 12:32 PM	#9
omega8omega Member Join Date: April 20, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 38	Jeff, great post. Thank you for your service, Sir Agree 100% - ISPC is a game of fast shooting, not jumping, rolling, crawling, covering, playing cops and robbers, etc. For that one can buy paint gun.

February 7, 2008, 01:25 PM	#10
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,521	The "bad habit" that IPSC emphasizes, is the search-and-destroy mentality. At the sound of the buzzer, you move downrange, farther and farther into "trouble", which is totally at odds with what should be an instinct to get the heck out of there. IPSC is an exceptionally good way to develop and maintain fast, competent gunhandling, but there's little about it that can be translated into self-defense tactics.

February 7, 2008, 03:12 PM	#12
Sigma 40 Blaster Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2007 Location: East Texas Posts: 997	Thank you Jeff (TexasSeaRay). I have no military or LE experience but common sense tells me that if someone, especially multiple individuals, are armed and mean to harm me I need to cover myself up as much as possible and worry about those who have the greatest opportunity to harm me first. Sure I'm a good enough shot but being 6'4" and 330 pounds I have a WHOLE LOT for a bad guy to hit. Knowing that I took one or two of a group before they kill me isn't a consolation. In reality, I think any IPSC or IDPA scenario would often end with the GG very dead...that's why it's a fun game. You get to be James Bond, Jack Bauer, Rambo, or whoever you want to be. RickB also made a good point, search and destroy is a mode I would go in to get a loved one out of danger...other than that I'm shooting and falling back as fast as humanly possible. At the end of the day it's a FUN game, I will never win any matches, will probably never even earn a ranking although in IDPA I'm just a hair away from being a sharpshooter. I know that because I'm not running full speed unless I'm exposed with no cover, I'm using cover when available and trying to take out BG's in the order that they mean to do me harm (not in the quickest possible way with the least amount and shortest target transitions), and I'm shooting for the fun and challenge of it. If someone uses IPSC for training they will not last very long if the you know what ever hits the you know what. Lurper, I do agree with you if we're talking about a very close and fast one on one or maybe two on one confrontation. Time from holster to shots fired will make the difference of who walks away. I have yet to shoot a scenario like that (one or two close attackers) yet. If there are multiple bad guys closing in FAST I think being able to quickly decide who needs to "get it" first and where I safely fall back to is first priority.

February 8, 2008, 12:05 PM	#14
Lurper Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2006 Posts: 943	I have, I have also consulted and trained military and LE organizations, but whether or not I have is immaterial. Some of the most respected authorities in the industry have not. It bears no relevance. Secondly, experience in the military (yours, mine or anyone else's) or as an LE has no bearing on civilian shootings. Totally different settings. Whether targets shoot back or not is immaterial. The single most important skill to develop is the ability to hit the target quickly. Seeking cover when you should be shooting will get you killed. A recent study by the Force Science Institute indicated that in the majority of the 400+ shootings the studied, cover was either not available or the shooting started and was fininshed before there was time to seek cover. Use of cover is only effective before the shooting starts. Unfortunately particularly for civilians the situations usually don't unfold that way. When it's time to shoot, you need to shoot and hit your target. There is only one certain way to ensure your safety: remove the threat. 70% of the time, the person who scores the first hit wins the fight. Common sense should tell you that you want to score the first hit. You would do well to study civilian shootings. You would find that a lot of what is being taught in many of the schools is lacking. I don't pull this stuff out of the air, I have been doing this for 25 years now and have studied countless civilian shootings. I base my opinions on my experience, that of my associates and the research I have done. They are sometimes counter to what some teach because I haven't drank the "tacticoolaid". The minute someone makes a statement like: "what you learn on the 'square range' doesn't apply to the 'real' world", I know I am dealing with a "tacticoolaid" drinker. The belief that somehow the mechanics of shooting change when it is a SD shooting is absurd. Some of the legendary gunfighters touted competition as one of the things that enabled them to prevail. Just like teaching reloads with retention for civilians. Show me a civilian shooting where the retained magazine was the determining factor. Tell me how the much more complex magazine manipulation makes shooting more effective. No, you probably won't face multiple attackers and fire thirty rounds in a SD situation. You probably won't need to reload, draw, move or shoot from inside, over or around something. But that's not what is important. What is important is that you are learning to hit the target quickly under pressure in and from varying positions. That is a skill that is much more likely to save your life than learning how to clear your house or seek cover. As for the mentality, that would only be an issue if you mind could not differentiate between a match and a real shooting. I'm off to the range to practice more "bad habits!"

February 8, 2008, 02:33 PM	#15
Lurper Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2006 Posts: 943	One other question: If IPSC builds bad habits and what you do on the "sqaure range" has nothing to do with the "Real" world, why do military and LE organizations seek out and pay lots of money to learn from the top IPSC shooters?

February 8, 2008, 03:24 PM	#16
DonR101395 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Location: NWFL Posts: 3,031	Lurper, I don't think anyone said that it doesn't have any applicability. What was said was that it teaches poor use of cover and concealment; which is absolutely applicable in a home defense scenario; much more so than gunning down 5, 6, 7 or more non-moving targets. I've seen guys run a stage using concealment effective and not place and guys have no regard for concealment and win. Neither was wrong, both got what they wanted out of the stage. IDPA/USPSA is absolutely good at firing under stress, safe gun handling and quick accurate target acquisition and shooting. Magazine retention is situational dependent, teaching to always drop or always retain are both wrong based on my experience and study. Conditioning to think under pressure is much more important. I can't think of a single civilian shooting where the shooter was required to to a tac reload, but I also don't know of one where it got a civilian shooter killed. To answer your other question top shooters are sought out to teach good shooting, I've attended many of them and some are better than others with regards to tactics, but all of them are good at teaching the shooting. Blackwater teaches a 6 day custom course for my unit; we use it as part of our spin up before deployments. We chose them based on three things, excellent shooting and driving instruction, their willingness to supply instructors familiar with the current TTP being used for low visibility operations(i.e. CCW in an NPE, criminal threat recognition and response i.e.things that go bump in the night at the team house or attempted mugging/kidnapping), and their excellent training facilities. We use other places for FOF, combatives etc. IMHO, there is no wrong way, some ways are better than other ways and it's up to the individual to determine his training and what he feels is applicable to his life situation.

February 8, 2008, 05:34 PM	#18
DonR101395 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Location: NWFL Posts: 3,031	For the most part I think we are agreeing. I'll never discount the ability to shoot fast and accurate. It's just not the reality with most gun owners who buy guns for protection. I haven't been to Mid-South in several years (95-6ish) Made one trip before we changed leadership. I'd love to go back sometime, but like you already know; you guys are hard to get slots with; which is a good thing. We went through a strictly in unit training regime for a while, then a anywhere but Mid-South regime:barf: and finally got leadership with some brains. BTW: There is very little to no cover in modern homes in the U.S. only concealment

February 8, 2008, 05:55 PM	#19
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,521	So, a quick Bill Drill is all I'll ever need for self defense?

February 8, 2008, 06:51 PM	#21
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,521	"Don't let the SAS guys teach you how to shoot" cuts both ways, as you note. Advocating no tactics is, in itself, advocating a tactic. Don't seek cover. Don't get out of the line of fire. Draw and shoot fast. It's a great skill, but it's not much of a tactic. A lot of people who train, and put their training to use, say, "train as you fight, because you will fight as you train", and if that's the case, I don't think I'd practice standing in the open and shooting. I don't mean to be totally dismissive, as most all of my own gunhandling skill has come from weekly IPSC matches over the last ten years, but gunhandling is only a small part of self-defense, and I hope, "when the balloon goes up", that I don't just stand there and shoot.

February 9, 2008, 02:23 AM	#24
Lurper Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2006 Posts: 943	Guess you missed the first two words in that sentence. Regardless, military combat and LE confrontations are totally different. Surviving a gunfight doesn't make one an expert, it makes one a survivor. As I said, the information is available and it speaks for itself.