The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 31, 2000, 10:40 AM   #1
Cyric13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 1999
Location: Statsboro
Posts: 159
Has anybody heard of these yet. I saw them in a gun mag yesterday at Wal-mart. They have some sort of plastic center with a jacket over them and they expand into a six sided star shape(I think). Didn't have time to read the artical. What do you guys think about these? In test results they showed, these rounds looked pretty good.

Cyric13

[This message has been edited by Cyric13 (edited January 31, 2000).]
Cyric13 is offline  
Old January 31, 2000, 11:13 AM   #2
Glock_man
Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 1999
Location: Winona Lake IN
Posts: 55
I read, prob., the same article you did in Guns and weapons for Law enforcement. This new round EFMJ, was deveoloped for one reason, to be a better killing machine. They say it will replace JHP because JHP gets "plugged" with fabric and matieral as it passes through clothes before hitting flesh. This results in less explansion once inside the body. Many JHP's are tested with ballistic jellatin but rarely, is a piece of fabirc ever draped over the jellatin to give the effect of clothing. Recently Custom Horndy did a test where they placed a few cloths over the gelatin and this shell expanded well but not as well as it did with out the cloth.

The core of this new EFMJ is not plastic but a kind of rubber. Your right this round looks really good but whether it catches on in the the LE world is a tough question. There are many old school officers out there that are dead set on JHP. I do believe you have seen the round of the futrue!!

------------------
when the govenment comes for you weapons, give them the ammo first

Glock_man is offline  
Old January 31, 2000, 11:16 AM   #3
Cyric13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 1999
Location: Statsboro
Posts: 159
Also I was wondering if these will be avaialbe to civillans? Like me. And if so when?

thanks, Cyric13
Cyric13 is offline  
Old January 31, 2000, 11:17 AM   #4
Marko Kloos
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2000
Location: Enfield, NH
Posts: 5,521
They look very promising. You get the feeding reliability of FMJ, and reliable expansion regardless of clothing. JHP designs can get clogged up with clothing material sometimes, which turns them into a FMJ and prevents expansion. These new EFMJs are lead cores with a rubber insert on top, and a copper jacket wrapped over it. On impact, the rubber part will collapse, flattening the jacketed tip into a nice mushroom. You get all the benefits of FMJ, and all the benefits of JHP, with neither of the negative aspects of both designs. *If* it works, it could be a very viable defense load. I wonder if they'll make it available to non-LEOs? I can see the Hardcopy special now...."Explosive armor-piercing soft tip dum-dum baby killer ammo, readily available on the civilian market. Tonight at 9."

Sigh.
Marko Kloos is offline  
Old January 31, 2000, 02:02 PM   #5
Dr.Rob
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: July 28, 1999
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,454
Sounds like an interesting design.. like mag-safe's fast hardball or other 'fmj" style bullet that don't LOOK like "evil" jhp ammo.

So where can we get a box? And what is the wieght, etc is it standard pressure or +p or???

Dr.Rob
Dr.Rob is offline  
Old January 31, 2000, 02:10 PM   #6
mike
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 1998
Location: Milwaukee WI
Posts: 6
Its a great idea if they can pull it off. A fmj round will feed exceptionally well in any pistol or revolver. This round expands by simply hitting the target and the impact driving the nose of the bullet rearward. No matter what it hits. If the bullet will then stay intact and not break up this should be a wonderful round. If it works as described it will sell like hotcakes. Hollowpoints to some extent rely on the medium they hit to expand.
These would expand if they hit wet paper, bone, dirt, wood, plaster, anything because the sheer impact is whats crushing the nose of the bullet.
mike is offline  
Old January 31, 2000, 02:18 PM   #7
Walt Welch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 1998
Location: Alamo, CA
Posts: 424
There are two good sources for information regarding JHP performance with plugged hollow points, or JHP's shot through denim.

Gun Tests started out plugging the JHP's with cotton, but then discovered that modeling clay worked just as well. They routinely use this method as a worst case scenario, and report the results of expansion. They no longer test unplugged JHP's.

The Firearms Tactical Institute publishes data for JHP's fired into calibrated ballistic gelatin, both bare gelatin, and gelatin covered with four layers of heavy (16oz) denim. See the Tactical Brief of Sept/Oct '99 for their methodology: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs9.htm

Hope this helps, Walt
Walt Welch is offline  
Old January 31, 2000, 05:48 PM   #8
singleshot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 1, 1999
Posts: 162
Did anybody actually _read_ the article?

Using clothing and other barrier materials in bullet testing is an industry standard that began with the FBI Ammunition Test Protocol in 1988. Everyone- including Federal uses it.

One of the specific goals was to improve performance through hard barrier materials such as wallboard and plywood which are part of the FBI test.

The fact that hollowpoints sometime get plugged is hardly new news and most of the current premium level bullets expand quite nicely after passing through clothing, but not necessarily so well with hard barriers. The reason is that there is no fluid to get inside the hollowpoint to initiate expansion.

The velocities in the article are standard levels for the weight- no +P, and they will be law enforcement only.
singleshot is offline  
Old January 31, 2000, 06:30 PM   #9
Morgan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 1998
Posts: 945
Sounds somewhat similar to the Hirtenberger Expanding Mono Block (EMB).

Read all about it (auf deutch) at http://www.snafu.de/~l.moeller/Fangschuss.html

[This message has been edited by Morgan (edited January 31, 2000).]
Morgan is offline  
Old January 31, 2000, 06:51 PM   #10
Jim V
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 1999
Location: SE Michigan - USA
Posts: 4,038
I am willing to bet that within days of the first department/LEO getting a supply of the ammo there will be a non-LEO with at least 6 rounds of the stuff. Most likely a full #&*^%$ box of it.

------------------
Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
Jim V is offline  
Old February 2, 2000, 05:34 PM   #11
SEAN WILLIAMS
Member
 
Join Date: October 5, 1999
Posts: 59
According to Federal, the EFMJ's should be on the shelf at your favorite ammo pick up spot within 6 months.
SEAN WILLIAMS is offline  
Old February 2, 2000, 09:03 PM   #12
DerGlockenpooper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 22, 1999
Posts: 222
It is an interesting an wonderful concept (Thanks Tom Burscynzki for inventing it!)

I do resent the commnet earlier in this thread that it is a "better killing machine and that is all". This device is a safer bullet to the public and accomplishes the goal of greatly reducing over penetration to walls, cars, and also the intended targets (human or otherwise). It is more efficient at hitting the target and ONLY the target, even on a miss where the bullet will penetrate less walls and such in your home.

My only thing I wonder about is that it will expand no matter what it hits. That could be good if you are using it indoors and don't want it to penetrate walls, but it could be bad if you have to shoot though a material to get to someone. The bullet will expand, I presume, even when it hits a leather coat or anything thicker that comes between the attacker and you. What this means is that it will be expanded BEFORE it gets into the person and thereby have a very different effect. It will create a larger wound channel from the start, but it also may expand too quickly (it might be better to have a bullet expand, say, a few inches into the target) and this bullet design will also not be utilizing the "explosive expansion" WITHIN the person like a hollowpoint will. Many people depend on the "explosive expansion" WITHIN the target to dump energy (even though we all know it is arguable). So, what will this bullet design do to for instance, the 135 gr .40 caliber which is all about energy dump on the target? I think this will have a much different effect overall, and is a bullet that should be used for different applications than a hollowpoint.

For instance, a State trooper who may have to shoot through a car would NOT want his bullet to expand upon hitting the car due to the fact that a handgun has enough trouble at getting through a car door, so why make it tougher by driving an expanded bullet through a car door? Not only that, but the bullet expends energy when it expands, so imagine an underpowered handugn bullet hits a car door, then expands, losing even more of it's feeble energy, and then tries to punch a larger diameter bullet through a car door with less energy than it even started with! I would think that general penetration through walls and doors would be much less, which is generally a good thing for safety, but can be a bad thing too, if you need it to hit the target, such as in the case of a State trooper shooting at someone in a car.

Overall, being that I am more of a penetration/big hole kinda guy I think this bullet is awesome, but I think it has it's drawbacks and only street use will tell. The energy game is almost lost in this design if someone is looking for "explosive energy" because te bullet explodes often BEFORE it gets into the target, rather than IN the target. Overall, I like it, but it is definitly a new game altogether.

JHMO and possibly very wrong!
DerGlockenpooper is offline  
Old February 2, 2000, 11:54 PM   #13
Rosco P. Coltrain
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 7, 1999
Posts: 267
So this is another Tom Burscynzhi invention, that's four big ones now.
Rosco P. Coltrain is offline  
Old February 3, 2000, 12:29 AM   #14
Dave9
Member
 
Join Date: November 8, 1999
Posts: 70
About 15 years ago a friend of mine was working out east and was seeing a girl who was in the army and some way or another he got a hold of some 9mm rounds(from her) that sound like what is being described.

They looked like a JHP that was filled with a light blue plastic so that they had the profile of ball ammo.

Up and till this post I would have desribed them as looking like a semi-jacketed plastic round.
Dave
Dave9 is offline  
Old February 3, 2000, 09:10 PM   #15
Tom Burczynski
Member
 
Join Date: August 7, 1999
Posts: 27
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr.Rob:
Sounds like an interesting design.. like mag-safe's fast hardball or other 'fmj" style bullet that don't LOOK like "evil" jhp ammo.

So where can we get a box? And what is the wieght, etc is it standard pressure or +p or???

Dr.Rob
[/quote]

Dr.Rob:

The Expanding Full Metal jacket (EFMJ) is unique in that it utilizes a gilding metal jacket having 6 deep scores on the ogive’s interior which contains a pressure-conformed “core” of 50 durometer silicone bearing atop a pure lead hollow-pointed core. The jacket is heeled over at the base in the final stage of manufacture. There is no external hollow point present. EFMJ’s look innocuous and feed just like a typical FMJ bullet. Upon impact, the ogive collapses axially and expands radially as the scored areas split and the silicone compresses.

The nice thing about the design is that you can make it expand larger or penetrate deeper by regulating several variables; jacket wall thickness, radial score depth, the amount of silicone in the nose and the cavity size/angle of the hollow-pointed core. Note: the lead core doesn’t require any hollow point at all to perform well but its presence relieves some of the shock the jacket is subjected to when impacting hard barriers. Depending on caliber, velocity, and application, expanded bullet diameters range from .550 to .900. Expanded bullets recovered from heavily-clothed gel are monotonously clone-like.

The main advantage is that it doesn’t require the presence of external fluid to expand rapidly since it contains its own fluid-like substance (silicone). I’m most impressed with its ability to penetrate HEAVY clothing -- not 4 layers of denim -- 10 layers, and still provide impressive expansion.

While massive bullet expansions _can_ be obtained if EFMJ’s are driven to high velocities, as loaded, *penetration in each caliber is over 12 inches after piercing hard barriers.

*10% gelatin/FBI protocol

As far as rapidity of expansion is concerned, when a .45 Auto EFMJ is fired through ¾-inch *plywood, the exit hole created is 2 inches in diameter as compared to the half-inch hole formed by a high-velocity Gold Dot.

*I have high-speed photos (converted to .gif files) of these bullets exiting ¾-inch plywood. I don’t know if there’s a way to view them on this thread/site or not but you guys are welcome to view them if this is possible.

The only drawback I see with the design is it is, of necessity, somewhat longer than a standard bullet of comparable weight due to the density differential between silicone and lead. This limits velocity to a degree.

The EFMJ was initially looked at by Federal as a product for European use -- especially in countries where hollow points are flat-out illegal to use (even for police). However, after sending pre-production 9mm ammunition to federal agencies for testing in this country, the company quickly realized that there was tremendous law enforcement interest and potential here in the U.S. Agencies were particularly interested in utilizing the round in their MP5’s, as it feeds extremely well. A major agency is interested in a 165 grain EFMJ .40 for their duty pistols. The ammo is scheduled to be tested in Canada next week. Various state agencies still not allowed to carry hollow points (e.g., Detroit P.D.!) are also candidates. In a nutshell, things may be moving along quicker than FCC would prefer (at SHOT, I overheard one gentleman order 240 cases).

The company is currently geared up for 9mm production. Manufacture of the .357 SIG and the .40 will soon follow. The .45 Auto will be next in line. At this time, it is being viewed as a law-enforcement-only round. It’s conceivable that this could change in the future, however.

Bullet weight for the 9 is 124 grains (it’s possible that a 135 grain may be released in the near future). A 155 grain EFMJ as well as a 165 grain version in the .40 has been perfected. It looks like the 165 grain bullet will be the standard weight. In .45, extensive work has been done in 165 grains and 185 grains. A 200 grain prototype is also being worked on.

Current velocity for the 124 gr. 9mm (standard pressure) is as follows:

Sig P228 1063 fps
Beretta 92 1112 fps
H&K MP5 1225 fps

A +P and +P+ version has also been tested. I have a hunch that the Rounds loaded to +P pressure levels will quickly become the “standard” L.E. round sold by Federal. Bullets loaded to 1300 fps have been tested. Bullet weights ranged from 115 grains to 147 grains.

Currently, the .40 S&W velocities range from 1120 to 1205 fps, depending on weight. Bullet weights ranged from 135 grains to 165 grains.

Velocities generated in .45 auto range from 920 to 1200 fps, depending on weight and pressure level. I’m pretty sure a standard pressure load will be the product available to L.E. Bullet weights ranged from 135(!) grains to 185 grains. I’ll be testing a 200 grain bullet this month.

After *two-years of development work (not counting Federal’s own work, later), the patent claims are very numerous and cover every worthwhile variation.

*I routinely saw this design in my sleep!

While I’m sure there will be detractors, I think the EFMJ is probably the most versatile design to date.

Another article is scheduled to appear within the next month or two in Police Marksman in case anyone’s interested.

Tom Burczynski

Tom Burczynski is offline  
Old February 4, 2000, 02:05 AM   #16
Cato
Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 1998
Location: Austria/Europe
Posts: 64
Tom, thanks a lot for the info!
Sounds like a really great design- especially for those of us who have to cope with hollowpoint bans!
You can't imagine how long I searched magazines, books and the net for effective nonhollowpoint ammo, but everything was either of unproven design and/or very expensive due to handmade bullets.
I only hope that Federal will export this ammo to Austria.
Cato is offline  
Old February 4, 2000, 02:08 AM   #17
Cyric13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 1999
Location: Statsboro
Posts: 159
Thanks Tom, that's more info than I could find anywhere else and all combined. Keep us updated if you can.

thanks, Cyric13
Cyric13 is offline  
Old February 4, 2000, 03:30 AM   #18
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 14, 1998
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 11,546
I saw this today in G&W4LE mag...
Indeed it does have a high NIFTY Factor.
From what Tom is saying, this design works.
1200 FPS loaded in a .45 - that made me interested.
Hmmm... Still, I will need to see this for myself. Can you send me a few boxes?

------------------
I mean, if I went around saying I was an Emperor because some
moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, people would put me away!


[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited February 04, 2000).]
George Hill is offline  
Old February 4, 2000, 04:01 AM   #19
dvc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 1999
Posts: 387
I bet this is going to revive the age old saying from the .45 crowd...

"they all fall to hardball"


Anyway, this new round sounds flawed to me. If it expands on impact, shooting through barriers would be impossible. Car doors, windsheilds...etc.

Its probably just going to be special purpose ammo like Magsafe, Glaser, ThunderZap, Beehive, BAT...etc.

I'm sticking with Federal Hydrashok or flat point FMJ.
dvc is offline  
Old February 4, 2000, 08:04 AM   #20
STEVE M
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 1999
Location: TN. USA
Posts: 607
Tom, how does this perform at an angle? First will it recochete like FMJ? And second will it still penetrate if it hits bone near the skin at an angle? I remember Jim Cirillo had some problems with FMJ and early HP's when head shots where at an angle.
STEVE M is offline  
Old February 4, 2000, 08:48 AM   #21
Puddle Pirate
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 1999
Location: Indy
Posts: 128
TFL must have more clout than I thought. We start talking about a new bullett, and the inventor comes by to give us the information on it.

Thanks Tom, keep working on the 200 grain .45



------------------
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." -Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-8.


Puddle Pirate is offline  
Old February 4, 2000, 10:28 AM   #22
Tom Burczynski
Member
 
Join Date: August 7, 1999
Posts: 27
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by STEVE M:
Tom, how does this perform at an angle? First will it recochete like FMJ? And second will it still penetrate if it hits bone near the skin at an angle? I remember Jim Cirillo had some problems with FMJ and early HP's when head shots where at an angle.[/quote]

STEVE M:

SOFT TARGETS: When the EFMJ strikes a soft target at an angle, the expansion (when looking directly at the nose) is still very round but is sometimes canted in relation to the shank’s axis. A big NY white-tail was hit behind the shoulder at an angle of about 30 degrees (155 grain .40 (S&W 4006)) and still looked good, considering the fact that it broke a rib. The general shape of the expanded bullet was surprisingly round. Weight retention was 100%. The deer traveled about 20 yards before piling up. I hope to have many more field reports on white-tails next year.

HARD TARGETS: Regarding hard targets, it depends on the target. If the bullet strikes plywood it digs in and expands, but as is the case with a soft point or hollow point, if the angle of impact is great enough, it will depart at the approximate angle of incidence. If fired at an angle into a masonry surface, the bullet is transformed into a large, ellipsoidal projectile, and because of the friction involved, a good percentage of its velocity is lost. The combination of reduced velocity and _very poor_ ballistic coefficient at least reduces the hazard to bystanders. One can only expect one design to perform so many tasks. There are no magic bullets.

Regarding detractors (above post) and barrier penetration, as stated previously; ”…as loaded, *penetration in each caliber is over 12 inches after piercing hard barriers.” No bullet expands to full diameter instantaneously, that’s why (just like a JHP) it can penetrate car doors and windshields.

*10% gelatin/FBI protocol

Because it IS a _more_ rapidly expanding bullet and because 12 sharp jacket edges are exposed quickly, it shouldn’t experience cranial deflection/penetration problems.

Tom Burczynski


Tom Burczynski is offline  
Old February 4, 2000, 11:24 AM   #23
Shawn Dodson
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 16, 1998
Location: Titusville, FL, USA
Posts: 1,030
Tom Burczynski:

While I've been skeptical of your HydraShok, Starfire and Quik-Shok designs, I think you may have a winner here! I'm looking forward to testing Federal EFMJ. I'm especially excited about a bullet that demonstrates reliable expansion after passing through heavy clothing. As long as the bullet reliably penetrates between 12 and 16 inches (and doesn't fragment in the process), bullet weight doesn't matter, in my opinion. Hopefully this will be a superior load for ultra-compact .45's like the Glock 30, whose short barrels don't allow most JHP bullets to achieve sufficient velocity for reliable expansion after passing through heavy clothing.

Out of curiosity, I've been planning an experiment which involved plugging the cavities of a few different JHP bullets with RTV silicone sealant to see if expansion performance could be improved through heavy clothing. I was interested to see if the silicone "plug" (being a soft solid) would prevent the cavity from being plugged as it passed through heavy clothing, yet still transfer fluid pressure to the internal walls of the cavity and cause the bullet to expand more reliably. From the article I read about your EFMJ design, it sounds like you've already tried this with mixed results.

Anyhow, I'll be contacting Federal in a couple of weeks to see about obtaining a few samples of EFMJ to test with mini-Glocks.

------------------
/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com

Shawn Dodson is offline  
Old February 4, 2000, 11:55 AM   #24
Matt VDW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 27, 1999
Posts: 1,315
OK, I have a dumb hypothetical question:

What's the risk of the silicone in the EFMJ hardening in cold temperatures? Have these rounds been tested after, say, six hours in a freezer, to simulate ammo carried by a cop walking a beat (rare as that is nowadays) on a winter day?

Hmmm... Perhaps the friction generated as the bullet speeds down the gun barrel heats the silicone enough regardless of its initial temperature.

And, BTW, is Federal ready for the lawsuits that are sure to follow from survivors of EFMJ shootings? 'Cause we all know, from the Dow Corning lawsuits, that silicone is a deadly toxin that causes everything from liver cancer to bad hair days.

Matt VDW is offline  
Old February 4, 2000, 02:20 PM   #25
Dr.Rob
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: July 28, 1999
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,454
Tom, thanks for the very informative postings.

I too am a 230 grain hydra shock fan, because 230 hydras and 230 UMC fmj print the same point of impact, and as far as "clogging" a hollow point the 45 round looks like you mix a martini in there (I think Tom Clancy said that) And UNLIKE glasers and magsafes, etc they are affordable. AND its a standard pressure load so I can shoot it in my old colt sew service army revolver if I so choose.

The ONLY complaint I've ever had a about hydras is they can bind on the feed ramp of some guns because of the steep olgive angle.. so bottom line is on some guns you have to polish the feed ramp if you want to shoot hydras.

So an expanding fmj that feed like good old ball ammo in ANY auto, but still opens up.. well that's pretty darn cool.

I'd like to hear more about the 200 grain load.. and lets hope us civilians can get a box. Any idea what the retail price of this will be?

Dr.Rob
Dr.Rob is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2020 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.16009 seconds with 7 queries