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Old October 7, 2001, 04:05 PM   #1
hoosierboy
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A .22lr for self defense?

Well I took the wife shooting for the second time last week, and although she is getting better, she was practicing with my ruger mark I and my taurus revolver in 22. She was comfortable firing it, but when I put my walther p99 9mm in her hands she put it down and said it kicked too much and was too loud (even with ear muffs on). She did like the shape and feel of the gun, but not the kick. I know she is a wimp, but maybe with time she will learn to shoot a larger bullet.

Anyway, she has a liscense to carry. It's real easy to get here in Indiana, but has never carried. I will probably get her a walther p22 when they come out, if they ever. I was thinking CCI stingers as good defensive round. Is there anyone who knows of any 22 ammo that would be somewhat decent for self defense?????
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Old October 7, 2001, 04:25 PM   #2
blades67
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Get a Glock 19 for your wife. I have a Walther P-99 Military and a Glock 19. My Lady doesn't like the way the P-99 recoils either. She likes the 19 better than any of my other 9mm pistols. At the very least you should let her try one to see if she like it better. She may also like a SIG Sauer P239 better, as is the case with a friend's wife.

If she is only comfortable with a .22lr for now, let her carry that I guess. Take her out as much as possible so that she becomes more comfortable and proficient with larger calibers.
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Old October 7, 2001, 04:25 PM   #3
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For starters, if you haven't already:

Have her use DOUBLE hearing protection - ear muffs and ear plugs.

* 1. Make sure the muffs are top quality. They are rated in units of NRR. The higher the number, the more noise it blocks out. Get muffs with a NRR rating of at least 28.

* 2. Then buy several packs of ear plugs with a NRR rating of 29 to 32. Be sure and follow the instructions to ensure that she inserts them properly.

Using double protection is almost mandatory indoors if you want to prevent hearing loss. It is helpful indoors and outdoors to prevent flinching by new shooters.

3. Before SHE shoots, let her get accustomed to the noise while YOU shoot. Also let her watch the recoil of the muzzle while you shoot so that she will know that it is normal and that it is a mild action, not a violent one.

This may not work for her, but it has helped a lot of new shooters.


Stay safe,
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Old October 7, 2001, 05:23 PM   #4
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find someone with a big 38 or 357 revolver and let her shoot 38 special full wad cutters. it will have some recoil but not bad
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Old October 7, 2001, 06:15 PM   #5
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hb

The most important thing when using the 22LR for defense is (you guessed it) reliability.

I tried multiple brands before settling on W-W Super-X HP's. You may end up with CCI Mini-Mag's.
My point is find a reliable HP load and stick with it. Buy 5,000 at a time so you have the same (100%) reliable lot.
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Old October 7, 2001, 07:41 PM   #6
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I'd consider moving up a notch and considering something along the lines of a .32ACP gun, perhaps one of the older PP's. They don't have much recoil, but it'll be a lot more effective SD round than the .22. In time, perhaps she'll work up to a more effective round. However, remember the first rule of a gunfight...
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Old October 7, 2001, 07:51 PM   #7
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A hit with a .22 is much more effective than a miss with a .50 BMG.

The last thing you want to do is scare her off. Take it slow.

I'm starting my wife with a .22. It beats not having a gun by a rather wide margin.
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Old October 7, 2001, 08:40 PM   #8
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I have what one would consider a small arsenal and have the glock 19 a beretta tomcat in .32 acp and a couple 38 special revolvers. I have been told that the .22lr is more effective than the .25 acp. So that is why I started her on that. I know some women out there that would see my collection and just drool, but to my wife they are just pieces of metal. Now that the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] hit the fan she wants to at least know how to shoot a gun. Its going to be slow moving her up to a larger caliber, considering how stubborn she is. I will try those super x HP's.

Thanks for the info guys!
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Old October 7, 2001, 08:54 PM   #9
Jim March
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The classic answer for this sort of shooter is a steel-frame .357 firing mild .38Spl ammo. The Ruger SP101 at 27oz loaded with standard-pressure .38 feels very mild, moreso than that Walther.

But they'll be more effective than .22s.

If you absolutely must carry .22LR for defense, you need something that moves as fast as possible - up past 1,000fps. There are tables of .22LR velocity in small revolver barrels - get ahold of 200 or so of each of the top three fastest loads, and test them for reliable feeding in a slidegun.

In a .22LR revolver, in my personal view there's only one really good choice: the Remington Yellowjacket. Fast as hell, great nose design, reliable expansion. Sometimes feeds funky in semiautos though.
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Old October 7, 2001, 09:15 PM   #10
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I don't like .22 LR for defense. Besides the lack of power, I don't trust rimfire ignition as much as centerfire ignition.

I would suggest having her trying .38 special. In a Ruger GP 100 or SP 101, .38 special is a very mild recoiler, and less snappy than 9mm (IMO). In addition, the .38 spl is more powerful than the .22 LR and the revolver is simpler to handle than a semi-auto. I think a .38 spl revolver would be a good choice for your wife. Try renting some for her.
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Old October 7, 2001, 11:08 PM   #11
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If .22 LR is to be used for personal defense I suggest a 3" or 4" revolver. Why? A misfire is easily remedied by pressing the trigger again. Load said revolver with Winchester Super-X 40gr Power Point LHP ammunition.

Most .22 semi-auto handguns, intended for personal defense use, are modified .25 ACP designs. The skinnier and longer .22 LR cartridge does not feed as reliably.
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Old October 8, 2001, 12:16 AM   #12
Herb Fredricksen
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22LR for self defense

If your lady is comfortable carrying a 22LR she can shoot well encourage her to do so until she acepts a stouter caliber that suits her. A belly full of 22LR will hurt like hell, if you survive. When her needs and tastes get bigger, more power to her!

I've always felt that an easily carried 22LR handgun may be a better choice for a non-professional like me than a more difficult to carry larger, heavier gun especially when that gun is dismissed out of hand and left home. Stopping power is important but how about "going power" or "going impowered" as opposed to going un-armed. The choice of a small caliber also seems much more like "less malice aforethought" should a legal situation arise.

My DA/SA Beretta 21A 22LR at 7+1 and my Taurus 94 22LR 9 shot revolver give me accurate and dependable fire power in my pocket while the bigger pistols in my gun safe are useless. All of life is a compromise. For those of us who imagine our risks far more often than we experience them a 22LR is very assuring.
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Old October 8, 2001, 01:55 AM   #13
Jim March
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I'm not totally against .22LR for defense, when recoil is a major issue. But I'll repeat: CAREFULLY select loads - and in a 4" or shorter tube, I don't think the 40grainers are the right choice.

Look for speed. Look at the NAA velocity charts, www.naaminis.com until the "Technical" link, left-hand column of yellow button links. To understand the data, realize that the Black Widow is a 2" tube and MiniMaster is a 4" tube. That allows you to ballpark how fast the loads will be in other guns.
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Old October 8, 2001, 02:03 AM   #14
MatthewM
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ammo: I use Winchester PowerPoint for hunting and it is among the most accurate. Full 40gr, hollow point, full velocity.

32 PP: My neighbor has a Walther PP .32auto. I shoot it the most inaccurately of any pistol I've tried so far. It also seems noisier and more recoil than others.

A friend just bought a discontinued auto that shoots .38 wad cutters only. It has almost no recoil and quiet and is made for competition. Kind of pricey though. From $600-800 used.

I see nothing wrong with her carrying the 22 and it is likely HER best choice. She will feel more comfortable handling it and therefore more likely to aim well.

(I always think it is a joke in the movies at how many rounds are fired without anyone being hit. THEN, I read about real life shootouts involving multiple police officers and no one hits anybody. Sounds like aiming is far more important than caliber)
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Old October 8, 2001, 03:48 AM   #15
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Like others have said a 22 beats nothing. Though a 32acp or 380 acp would be a big step up IMHO.

For revolvers consider DA 32H&R mags which can also fire 32 S&W Long. Not a big selection of defense loads out there but the recoil will be less than 38 special. You can also handload 60 grain bullets designed for the 32 acp, like Speer's 60 GDHP, to 1000-1200fps for use in the 32 Mag. At that speed expansion should be very reliable but still light recoil.
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Old October 8, 2001, 04:00 AM   #16
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Many here are partial to CCI (Stinger or MiniMag) for 22LR defense. I prefer a good old fashioned LRN and the extra four grains of lead. (Remington Thunderbolt is my actual preference.)
 
Old October 8, 2001, 05:01 AM   #17
Hal
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Ditto what PF said.(at least for a semi auto)
Hyper velocity and tricked out ammo look good in print, but usually end up hanging up on a feed ramp, or doing wierd things to the cycling of the slide. <--My experience from firing a mixed bag of well over 100K rounds of assorted .22lr ammo in no less than 15 different .22's over the last 30 months, not my opinion.

When my wife and I were first dating, she glommed-on to my High Standard and it took me 20 years to get it back from her. I bought her a Buckmark Micro that she's been real happy with and finally got my HS back I also bought her 4 extra magazines to go along with it. A .22 is better than a sharp stick or an obscene gesture but it isn't really a 1 or 2 or even a 10 shot reliable stopper. As a last ditch, a revolver is Ok I guess, but as a primary weapon mag change could be critical. If she's stuck on using the .22, and believe me I'v tried to get her to something with more punch, I'd rather have her as competent with it as possible. While my wife enjoys shooting, she views it a lot like I view roller coasters. I go on em with her, but I don't go out of my way to go to an amusment park. Moral? let you wife make the decision, then do your best to support it, but don't stop trying to convert her. Just don't push the issue too much.
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Old October 8, 2001, 09:35 AM   #18
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A 22 is not a stopper. If she can't train enough to handle a 9mm then she should not carry a gun.
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Old October 8, 2001, 10:07 AM   #19
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That's the most ridiculous statement I ever heard, "If she can't train enough to handle a 9mm then she should not carry a gun" What kind of advice is that? Have you ever seen her shoot? She may be able to outshoot you and me both with something she feels CONFIDENT with. That's one of the keys, shot placement and confidence in your weapon. If she is forced to carry a 9mm, which she does not like due to recoil, she won't be able to use it efficently, heck it wouldn't matter if it was a cannon, if she doesn't feel confident with it it's totally useless. Let her find something she feels comfortable with and then practice, practice, and practice some more. I know this is said often but I don't know anyone who wants to get shot with anything, hell, I don't want to get hit with a air rifle.
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Old October 8, 2001, 10:28 AM   #20
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My wife has fired many of my handguns (though it's hard to get her to go shooting - not her favorite thing to do), and several of them were available to her in the safe when a suspicious lurker across the street made her feel nervous.

She took out "her" 4" .22 lr revolver, and kept it available until I got home.

She would have been a lot better off with the 12-ga.

She's shot the 12-ga. She didn't like it.

There were 9 mms, and a .40, and a .41 and a .357 in the safe. She's shot them all.

She got the .22 out and used it. She can put all six rounds in a 4" circle at 20' (bad eyes) - I'm sure she could do the same firing rapidly under stress at 10'.

Whatever works, guys . . . .

Hoosierboy, we use Stingers in the S&W 34-1 with the 4" tube. We were running the new CCI Quik-Shoks (I'd had good luck with the old Tritons), but this gun doesn't seem to like them much. I keep thinking Preserve Freedom's line of thought might be better, though - mass is probably a better predictor of penetration than velocity out of a .22 handgun.

BTW, I'm a relocated Hoosier myself - gotta love that concealed carry law. You're living in AMERICA, buddy! Say, is my college pal Andy Ujdak still on the city council up there in South Bend?
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Old October 8, 2001, 11:55 AM   #21
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Quote:
If she can't train enough to handle a 9mm then she should not carry a gun.

Ahh, I get it. She's better off with NO gun than with a .22 LR. Yeah, that makes good sense.

If you were a rapist, which would you prefer? A lady with a .22 or a lady with no gun?
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Old October 8, 2001, 12:16 PM   #22
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hoosierboy,

Do you know of any other women shooters that could come out to the range the same time you and your wife are there? It may take another lady her size to show her that she can handle a larger caliber comfortably. It's the "if she can do it, than I can too" theory.

I have small hands and skinny little wrists, so I have to try harder than a large man to get used to larger calibers. My carry handgun is a .357 Taurus 617 (ported), loaded with 125 gr. Gold Dots. I think she justs need more practice, and more importantly, diligence.
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Old October 8, 2001, 12:23 PM   #23
Ala Dan
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Greeting's All,

While I don't condone the use of the .22LR caliber
for self defense, in over 20 years experience as
a LEO I've seen more folk's killed with this caliber; than all other caliber's combined. I guess this is mainly due too so many inexpensive
firearms being chambered for this round; and
because they are somewhat easily obtainable?

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, Life Member N.R.A.
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Old October 8, 2001, 12:48 PM   #24
tyro
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Quote:
Load said revolver with Winchester Super-X 40gr Power Point LHP ammunition.
I have had numerous failures-to-fire with Winchester Super-X 40gr Power Point LHP ammunition in both my S&W 317 Kit Gun and my NAA Mini Master.

I have fired hundreds of Remington Yellowjackets without a single failure-to-fire.
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Old October 8, 2001, 01:22 PM   #25
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Dear Hoosier:

ALA DAN and 355 SIGFAN both make pretty good points.

1. As Dan said, lots of people are killed each year by .22's - but it's my understanding that not many die IMMEDIATELY. Many of them die hours or days later in a hospital.

2. 355SIG's point seemed to be related to stopping power. I can't endorse his conclusion that your wife is better off carrying nothing, but it is worth considering the value of stopping a threat IMMEDIATELY (or ALMOST immediately). An assailant can still do a lot of harm to you or to her with a couple of .22 rounds in him, especially if he's on drugs.

3. If the above-listed points are valid (and some may disagree), then you need to continue to work toward getting her to reach a comfort level with a service caliber weapon.

4. I see in your last reply that you have a Glock 19. Another option that you have in the training/acclimation process is to get an Advantage Arms .22 conversion kit for the Glock.

It has a barrel/slide assembly that fits onto your Glock frame, letting you use your standard trigger. It comes with Glock factory sights (adjustable) and all of the Glock internal safeties. The mags are inserted and removed just like factory mags, and the slide locks back after the last round is fired.

They are incredibly accurate and are excellent training tools. (Just DON'T get the Ciener kit - nothing but trouble).

Stay safe,
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