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Old July 3, 2000, 09:51 PM   #1
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Hello,Iam in the market for my first 9mm pistol and Iam looking at the HKP7M8. Might as well buy a good one right guys? Anyway on to my point, why do a lot of guys hate the 9mm and does it deserve the put downs it gets? A lot of pepole make it out to be a waste of brass,like the .25 auto if you will.As if you could put a whole clip in a guy and he will just about be hurting. I know this to be bull**** because my older brother was shot when i was younger by some crazy bastard with an old P38. He was shot 2 times once in the stomach and once in the upper leg.He was in the hospital for 5 weeks and lost his spleen. He said it was the worst pain he ever felt in his life.He said it was like a sledge hammer and then it burned like a hot poker. All this from the lowly 9mm hardball,the one that supposedly just zips through pepole and leaves small holes if you listen to the asses at the gun shops and pepole who have never been shot mind you.I am here to tell anyone who will listen that a .36 caliber hole is .36 to big if the hole is in your body.Neither round exited my brothers body by the way and he is 150lbs and 5'10".So what are your opinions on the 9mm?
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Old July 3, 2000, 10:06 PM   #2
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I love any caliber that's in my hand when I need it.

Choose the biggest caliber you can confidently shoot.

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Old July 3, 2000, 10:06 PM   #3
Rex Feral
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I prefer the .45. Looking at the 230gr .451 diameter bullet next to the 115gr .355 diameter, it just makes me feel better to have the bigger slugs in my self defense gun.

I justify it by telling myself since expansion is rather spotty from handguns, I'd rather have the larger diameter bullet to start with. In reality there is not much difference in the actual incapacitation potential of the best loads in either caliber.

As much as it pains me to admit it, I'd say I feel just as well armed with my BHP 9mm or my USP .45.

Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war.

[This message has been edited by Rex Feral (edited July 03, 2000).]
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Old July 3, 2000, 10:11 PM   #4
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I just prefer mine preexpanded.That way I don't have to take a chance on the bullet not expanding.I would rather not be shot by anything but if I have to shoot I would prefer a .45 acp.My preference.

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Old July 3, 2000, 10:28 PM   #5
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I don't think it's that they hate the 9mm. The problem seems to be when someone thinks that the 9mm is God's gift to handgunning and tries to put down other rounds such as 40 S&W, 45 ACP, 38 spl, 357 Magnum.....and so on. Many arguments that I have seen here are people that can handle a big bore merely defending it.
Old July 3, 2000, 10:49 PM   #6
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Although this isn't always the case, most detractors of the 9mm that I have seen are the same people who talk crap about anything that isn't "homegrown in the good old US of A". It typically boils down to a 45 vs. 9mm debate. Fortunately, many of us can acknowledge the strengths and weaknesses of different options, and don't feel the need to belittle someone who makes a different choice. FWIW, the 9mm has been -the- military pistol/subgun caliber in Europe for nearly a century. If it didn't work adequately in that role, I really doubt it'd have that history to its credit.
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Old July 3, 2000, 11:04 PM   #7
Dan in GA
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I don't think it's a hate for the 9mm caliber, just a different advantage. a hole from a 9mm will stop someone just easily as a hole from a .45ACP. I prefer .45ACP because I know the hole will be bigger and increase the chance of stopping with one shot if that's all i get. The advantage of the 9mm is that i have more chances to hit the target if i miss the first time. So, IMO...different advantages...9mm...more rounds....45ACP bigger holes....but one round from either can have the same end result......Dan in GA
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Old July 3, 2000, 11:19 PM   #8
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I personally like 9 mm, and also .357 mag. and .22 LR, BTW. All I care about is to have
good quality pistol loaded with good quality
ammo. Example: CZ-75 + 15 rds. of Fiocchi FMJ (or JHP). That's a very serious set-up for just about anything.

I do not like just about any commercial U.S.
made 9x19 'cause it's loaded pretty weak for
liability or whatever reasons, although US military 9 mm stuff is very good.

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Old July 3, 2000, 11:23 PM   #9
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I hate the 9mm because I can't find any for free!

Of the people I have met, that dislike the 9mm, the dislike stems from a love of a different caliber and/or the inability to acknowledge that differing opinions have as much validity as their own.

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Old July 3, 2000, 11:38 PM   #10
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One of the reasons unfortunately, is that we have too many "experts" in the newstand gun rags talking about overpenetration, the "wedge effect" of the 9mm hardball and all the rest of the junk science. Fact is, a 9mm will get the job done. During the summertime, I carry a 9mm when I am not dressed to fully conceal either my full size .45 or .40 and I don't feel undergunned although I do prefer a .45 simply because I would rather have a bigger hole in the BG.
If you listen to alot of the so called "experts" they make it sound as if a 9mm has to be loaded to some super duper +P+ velocity to be of any value, but I know of people who were both stopped and killed by 9mm FMJ. Massad Ayoob is one of those who always talkes of standard velocity 9mm as impotent and that it need to expand and has to be going "very very fast".
I would wonder if he would be willing to let me shoot one of those "impotent" rounds of standard velocity FMJ rounds at him since they are so wimpy

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Old July 4, 2000, 01:29 AM   #11
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For many people it seems to boil down to the fact that the 9mm isn't a .45.

Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
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Old July 4, 2000, 03:13 AM   #12
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Well, I used to have a tough time liking the 9mm. When I shot 9mm pistols, I did so for the pistol (like the BHP), not the cartridge. In fact, I more or less begrudged the cartridge. And, yes, I think this was in part because, like Mike I. says, the 9mm is not a .45. Also, the 9mm originated in Europe, and maybe I had some problem there, like the New World looking down on the Old.

FWIW, though, lately I've been rethinking the 9mm. I'm not quite sure why, but I like the cartridge now for its own sake. Maybe it's because with a modern expanding bullet a 9mm can become a .50. Maybe it's because my preference for "American" guns and ammo has been broadened by the excellence of Berettas, SIGs, and Glocks, all of which are, of course, Old-World. Maybe it's just greater familiarity with the 9mm. Not that I'm giving up .45s, but I'm much more positive about the 9mm.

Anyway, I think, or hope, that the change is for the better.


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Old July 4, 2000, 03:54 AM   #13
Tom B
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It could also have something to do for some of the older people with the 9mm being the weapon of the enemy. The 45cal the weapon of the good guys.
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Old July 4, 2000, 05:25 AM   #14
Dave McC
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For me, it's the various weapons chambered for the 9mm,as well as the fact that there IS the 45.I hold the 9 mms when I shoot them, the GM is a body part.


The effectiveness ladder....

Big holes, center mass
Smaller holes, center mass
Big holes, elsewhere
Small holes, elsewhere
Scare them with the noise...

Usually, the 9mm will do the job, but the database shows....

James Day, hit w/ 115gr HPs 11 times in
1980 while he shot back. He's still alive, and last I saw he seemed fully functional.

The Chicago biker/PCP aficianado reported by Marshall that took 33 9mm rounds before dropping.

Sgt Frank Elzey, who took two rounds from a Schmiesser through his abdomen,and another through his arm in the South of France, 1945. He won the Bronze Star that day,and continued leading his squad until a relief was available....

No such verifiable data exists on people hit with 45s.
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Old July 4, 2000, 12:15 PM   #15
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You dig deeply enough, and you'll find LOTS of similar stories of people whacked with the .45 who kept on functioning as if nothing happened.

In this day and age of high performance bullets, the differences, which were originally based on the performance of hardball ammo, where the .45 DOES have a distince advantage, are so blurred as to be almost indistinct anymore.

If you believe Sanow and Marshall (Their numbers don't hold up to strict scrutiny, but they can give a general idea as to what works and what doesn't), an expanding .380 Silvertip is a much more effective stopping round than the .45 ACP ball, based on about 40 shootings with the .380 round. Uh huh, right. Wanna buy a bridge?

Given that choice, I'll pick the .45 every day.

But given the choice between a .45 loaded with high performance .45s, and a 9mm loaded with high performance 9s, I'll make the choice based on the GUN, not the ammo.

Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
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Old July 4, 2000, 12:17 PM   #16
Steve Smith
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I wouldn't say I HATe ith 9mm, but I just don't see a need for it for most men. Can you shoot a lagrger caliber? If so, us it instead. If you can't, and that's your reason, no one will have a problem with it. If you choose the 9mm because "it's the biggest baddest thing on the planet," well, it's not, and you're wrong. As others have said, use the largest caliber you can shoot well. My wife (certainly not big or unusually strong) carries a .45 acp every day (as do I) and she has no problems. Also, a shooting buddy of mine weighs in a 123lbs soaking wet, but he shoots a .45 very well. Other women and other small men may feel the need for the 9mm, but I'm not convinced of the need for as many folks using it as there are.
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Old July 4, 2000, 12:38 PM   #17
Ronin 99
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Learned how to shoot with 9mms and I'd never feel undergunned with one. Shot placement is what it's all about. I have since moved up to 1911s and all things being equal I'd rather have one in .45acp during a crisis situation 'cause;a)it's bigger(230gr) b)I'm more accurate with a 1911 c)A 1911 is visually intimidating and I might get out of the situation without having to fire at all. When all is said and done,the gun in your hand is the one. Love 'em all!


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Old July 4, 2000, 03:08 PM   #18
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I like the 9mm because it comes in a small package, i.e. the Keltec P11, and it's easy to carry and conceal. I like the .45ACP too, but I can't get a usuable .45 in a P11 sized package, so it's 9mm for concealed carry for me.

For the record, I don't want to get shot with either of these calibers...
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Old July 4, 2000, 03:37 PM   #19
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True, Mike, but nothing is a 100% stopper. Until we can get Han Solo's balster, I'll stick with the 45. I would not feel inadequate with a 38 or 9mm, but I better armed with the 45. And, I shoot mine better than just about any other kind of handgun.
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Old July 4, 2000, 03:45 PM   #20
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The down fall of 9mm came when Clinton ban the sale of post 1994 "high cap" mags. I know you can still buy pre-ban mags, but the prices have made 9mm much less popular. If you could still buy a new glock 17 with two 17 round mags for $400-450, then 9mm would be more popular.
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Old July 4, 2000, 05:38 PM   #21
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I think the Doctor nailed it. The three biggest advantages of the 9mm are capacity, capacity and size of the guns. Now that you have to pay $50+ for a 15 round mag for that Beretta 92, people tend to just buy the 96 and get 10 rounds of a bigger bullet.

On size, the 9mm can still shine, but even in the smallest autoloaders in this caliber (Glock, Kahr, Kel Tec) you can get the same gun in .40.

The 9mm has less kick, but I don't think that it is really that much less kick. And once you are experienced with handgunning the larger calibers can be controlled just as easily.

And finally for some of us bigger just seems better. It may be psycological, and I can know in my head that a 9mm can do the job just as well as anything else, there is something comforting about having a .45 on my hip.
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Old July 4, 2000, 06:38 PM   #22
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I think what's more important that the caliber of gun you carry is how well you shoot it and how confident you are with the weapon you're carrying. I carried .38 special revolvers and felt fine with them because I could hit what I aimed at. I have graduated to semi autos and I agree with those who feel that if they shoot well with the big caliber guns then they have an advantage in that one shot knock down power. I personally always feel kinda over gunned when I carry an 8 or 10 shot semi because I started out with 6 and 5 shooters and I always felt that they could handle the situation. We used to say that if you couldn't get the job done with 6 shots then you weren't going to get thet job done. A 9mm with the right load in competent hands will do the job, as will .38 or .40 or .45 under the same circumstance. Placement will always be more important that caliber. Just my humble opinion.

Life is great if you can survive it!
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Old July 4, 2000, 07:28 PM   #23
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My next door neighbor used to be a Compton cop back in the late 70s/early 80s. He said he saw his partner shoot a guy on PCP 13 times with a 9mm. Then, the guy proceeded to throw his partner across the squad car. Eventually they subdued the guy and he was DOA. My neighbor said all the cops in Compton started carrying any of the following: .45, .357, .41 mag or .44 mag. That's why I hate the 9mm and would never stake my life on it. Bigger is better. The guy above said it right: Shoot the biggest caliber that you feel confident in shooting. I don't care what stats on paper say. A 230 grain slug is better than a 115 grain slug, especially with all the exotic ammo they have nowadays.
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Old July 4, 2000, 07:33 PM   #24
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Oh yea, I'd like to add the following. I think they have documented proof of people getting shot straight through the heart with either a .38 or 9mm and these people keep on fighting for a deadly length of time. I'm not so sure they have that stat for .45s. And if they do, the instances of it happening are probably fewer and farther between. Long live the .45.
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Old July 4, 2000, 09:25 PM   #25
Will Beararms
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I do not hate the 9mm. I shoot it quite well and with the right bullet design, it is an effective caliber. Those who choose the 9mm as their primary caliber should be respected. I will guarantee you 98% of them can hit their intended target 98% of the time.

I will echo that I prefer my bullets to be pre-expanded and thus the .45ACP is my caliber of choice. In a scenario where hollowpoints are not available, I would not feel unprotected with a 230 grain ball round. If hollowpoints are accessible, I will take the Federal 230 Grain Hydrashok JHP thank you. My theory is that the handgun is a stop-gap method of getting you to your rifle or shotgun so mag capacity does not bother me. Furthermore, I prefer the .45ACP as a companion to my hunting rifle while stalking Whitetail in the thick timber and river bottoms of the Deep South. I feel much better with the .45ACP vs. the 9mm when it comes to wild hogs and an occasional gator.

I will confess that when the greatest nation in the world switched from the .45ACP ball to the 9mm ball, I got ticked off. I still believe that the .45ACP is superior to the 9mm in ball ammo configuration when it comes to shear energy and fight-stopping "umph". The last time I checked we had the strongest economy in the world and we bailed Europa out of a bind not once but twice. That having been said, we should dictate to NATO what caliber we want to carry. If they don't agree, what can happen? A new ammo factory or two in AMERICA providing AMERICAN jobs? Would that be so bad?

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