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Old April 4, 2020, 06:12 PM   #1
stagpanther
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Sub MOA all day long

I've heard and read this quote a thousand times over decades--my question is has such a rifle ever truly existed? Seems impossible to me.
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Old April 4, 2020, 08:15 PM   #2
Bart B.
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Yes, it's true, because that many rifle-ammo combinations will do that. .

The person shooting them may not be up to it.

USA military rifle team top classified members were issued rebuilt 7.62 NATO semiautomatic rifles that easily tested sub MOA through 600 yards with commercial match ammo, Sierra match rebulleted M118 match or handloads with new cases and commercial match bullets.

Last edited by Bart B.; April 4, 2020 at 09:39 PM.
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Old April 4, 2020, 08:21 PM   #3
TXAZ
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GA used to advertise they could build a 3/8 MOA rifle.
The sales guy I talked to there said quit doing that after they got so many complaints to the contrary: they would get the rifle back, check it out, shoot a 3/8” pattern then send it back. The lesson was many shooters have no chance at 3/8 MOA much less 1 MOA because they don’t have the training.

EDIT: I stand corrected: GA still advertises their 3/8 MOA HRT and Hospitaller rifles.
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Old April 4, 2020, 11:52 PM   #4
stagpanther
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Yes, but ALL day long? I'd like to see that.
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Old April 5, 2020, 01:02 AM   #5
BJung
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I had a friend who owned an Interarms 7RM with a new barrel that was floated. His petloads could shoot cloverleaves at 100 yards.
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Old April 5, 2020, 06:53 AM   #6
Hal
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Yes, but ALL day long? I'd like to see that
Go to a benchrest range sometime when there's a group "tuning up".

Granted - the rail guns don't look much like a rifle,,,but,,,,still fun to watch them perform.
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Old April 5, 2020, 07:17 AM   #7
Bart B.
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Check the aggregate groups in these sites

https://internationalbenchrest.com/results

https://www.nbrsa.org/cactus-classic-results-2019/

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Old April 5, 2020, 07:32 AM   #8
ammo.crafter
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moa

My 989k Mauser (WW II) converted to 6mm Remington has always shot sub MOA with very exacting handloads and specific cartridge selection.
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Old April 5, 2020, 08:32 AM   #9
NoSecondBest
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I've owned several rifles over the years that will shoot sub 1moa five shot groups until it became monotonously boring to shoot them. It really comes down to the rifle, the load, and the person shooting it. A rifle is like any process, it can be extremely repeatable (narrow distribution) or have a wider distribution. I do agree that most of the bravado about "all day long" is composed of "wallet groups". A wallet group being a one time thing someone did (usually with three shots) and then put in their wallet to show everyone they can shoot very tiny groups at will. If you ever get the chance to hang around "the big dogs" you'll see that there are some really, really good shooters out there who can shoot like that "all day long". It takes some time, investment, and experience to get there. It's not with an off the shelf Wal Mart special and a box of factory ammo.
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Old April 5, 2020, 09:11 AM   #10
Bart B.
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Here's eight of my wallet groups shot in one day. 50 yards shot from prone. X ring is .391 inch diameter, bullets are 22 rimfire. 400-40X score.

IMG_0157.JPG

3 shots were plugged with the .224" gauge and were at least one thousandths into the X ring.

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Old April 5, 2020, 09:54 AM   #11
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Nice shooting--but I'm talking REAL rifle.
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Old April 5, 2020, 10:10 AM   #12
Bart B.
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Originally Posted by stagpanther View Post
Nice shooting--but I'm talking REAL rifle.
So, you think that Anschutz 1911 rifle was only a figment of my imagination?
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Old April 5, 2020, 10:13 AM   #13
Sharkbite
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i tried to post a pic.... that didnt work

My FN SPR will do under 1/2” if i do my part. I just had the barrel shortened to 18” and installed a muzzle break/suppressor mount for my SDn6.

So this next week its off to the range to re-zero and get new velocity data. We’ll see how it shoots now

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Old April 5, 2020, 10:35 AM   #14
stagpanther
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So, you think that Anschutz 1911 rifle was only a figment of my imagination?
Just teasing.
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Old April 5, 2020, 11:43 AM   #15
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Would you believe hitting a 1.6" diameter golf ball at 563 yards?
Twice!



(I'm not telling out of how many shots )
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Old April 5, 2020, 11:57 AM   #16
mikejonestkd
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IMO it is more likely that the shooter can not hold sub MOA, than the rifle not being capable of it.

Bart's comment " The person shooting them may not be up to it." is dead on.

A quick example, I finally saved up enough coin for a bucket list rifle - an Anschutz 1710 HB, and put a top dollar scope on it. My first trip to the range was disappointing- It wasn't really shooting better than any of my other .22s at 100 yards.
An old timer that was a lifelong smallbore competition shooter offered to try it for me. He shot 4 sub MOA 5 shot groups in a row off the bench. He handed back the rifle and then generously offered to train me how to properly shoot a rifle.
Its been almost 20 years since that lesson, Floyd is long since passed onto the happy hunting ground but I still am reminded regularly that its often the Indian, not the arrow, that makes precision shooting possible
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Old April 5, 2020, 12:00 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by mikejonestkd View Post
IMO it is more likely that the shooter can not hold sub MOA, than the rifle not being capable of it.

Bart's comment " The person shooting them may not be up to it." is dead on.

...
I still am reminded regularly that its often the Indian, not the arrow, that makes precision shooting possible
^^^^^^^
THIS!
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Old April 5, 2020, 12:21 PM   #18
stagpanther
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I typically shoot about 50 cartridges per 1.5 hour rifle session. When I see the comment "sub-MOA all day long," That's my frame of reference.
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Old April 5, 2020, 12:51 PM   #19
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I have rifles I have done it with on multiple occasions, 100 plus rounds over the course of 6 to 7 hours. All match ammo that was worked up in the specific gun. Easier at 100 than 600 for sure.

A few years ago, I was at the range practicing with a variety of guns and set up my match .260 for 550 yards on a single paper target. I shot 3 rounds once every hour from 10am until 5pm when I left. 21 rounds printed just under 5". Two weeks later I could not shoot 5 inside 2" at 100 with the same gun and ammo, so I put it up for the day and shot pistols.

Factory "hunting" rifle with factory ammo? I have one that will do it, and I have a friend who has one that will do it, but those are pretty rare.

I will admit, I have never been able to do it with a .22LR rifle yet, but not giving up.
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Old April 5, 2020, 01:01 PM   #20
Bart B.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkbite View Post
My FN SPR will do under 1/2” if i do my part.
Is doing your part mean aiming left when the bullet's gonna shoot right?

I once shot 5 rounds at 1000 yards that landed inside a 2" extreme spread group. Using aperture sights. All were called up to 5 or more inches in all directions from points of impact. Therefore, that 5 shot group's extreme spread was actually 10 inches, or more. That's the reality of "doing one's part."
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Old April 5, 2020, 01:36 PM   #21
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I look for constancy in my reloads. My first reloads were for a scoped Lee Enfield using Rem brass. I shot !" groups with that. My second example is my Browning 40cal HP. I'd weigh and separate the same brass by manufacturer. I'd weigh and separate the bullets too. For fun, I shot at clay pigeons at 100 yards. I didn't hit the clay pigeon every time but if I was shooting at someone, he would be running for cover. And last, I reloaded for a 1910 Target Swedish Mauser with aperature sights. I weighed and measured all the Norma brass I had; then, did the same with the bullets, then measuring the concentricity of the cartridge so they'd chamber the same way. I got a dime size group at 200 yards. I like petloads shot from a bench and knowing what my gun can shoot at its best. Anything causing a larger group from anything three positions is my fault.
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Old April 5, 2020, 01:44 PM   #22
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Read up on Ladder tests to compare both bullet placement on your paper and the MV between loads to find your pet load. Then read up on comparing MV deviation between bullet seating depth. I look for my nodes.

My friend who shot cloverleaf groups took the worst of his sorted brass and fired them until the primer pockets go loose or the pressure signs on the primer indicated excessive pressure. I work my way up looking at nodes and look for pressure signs ( including a tight bolt ). If my pet load is far from max, that's fine for me. I'm looking for the best accuracy. My two cents.
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Old April 5, 2020, 02:01 PM   #23
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I have a Remington 700 VL in 22-250 that will shoot under 1" 5 shot groups. Sometimes a flier, but still under an inch. At 200 yards it would put 4 shots in 3/4", then the 5th shot 1.25" away. Still MOA.

I bought a box of inexpensive ammo and it went all over the place. Like 3" @ 100. My hand loads were better, but not the usual. I cleaned the gun well and its back to normal.
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Old April 5, 2020, 02:02 PM   #24
David R
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Sub MOA all day long

Last week getting ready for chuck season

6 shots 100 yards from a rest.
My hand loads. 38 grains of H380 and Sieara 52 HP
David
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Old April 5, 2020, 02:24 PM   #25
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"All day long" means multiple groups, over hours of shooting, not one group.
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