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Old April 7, 2019, 12:54 PM   #1
rep1954
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Must be able to shoulder?

Is a rifled firearm whose overal length is more than 26” with a barrel length of more than 16” considered a rifle even though it does not have a shoulder stock?
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Old April 7, 2019, 01:43 PM   #2
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Depends. If it isn't a build from a stripped receiver, then the serial number dictates what it is.

What gun are you talking about, and is it being built, or a factory gun? A little more info would be welcome.

For example, if you build a stripped AR15 with a 20" barrel, unless you physically put a rifle stock on it, it can be whatever you want, rifle, "firearm", or pistol. There's nothing against a pistol with a VERY long barrel.
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Old April 7, 2019, 03:02 PM   #3
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Say a serialed rifle to start with modified to the fore mentioned dimensions.
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Old April 7, 2019, 03:14 PM   #4
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It would still be considered a rifle.
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Old April 7, 2019, 04:10 PM   #5
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rep1954 Is a rifled firearm whose overal length is more than 26” with a barrel length of more than 16” considered a rifle even though it does not have a shoulder stock?
No, because Federal law/ATF regulations define "rifle" as follows:
Quote:
§478.11 Meaning of terms.
Rifle. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

Quote:
MagnumWill Depends. If it isn't a build from a stripped receiver, then the serial number dictates what it is.
Absolutely not.
A firearm serial number has absolutely nothing to do with whether a firearm is a handgun/rifle/shotgun/silencer/etc
What "dictates" whether a particular firearm is a rifle/pistol/etc is by the definitions in Federal law/ATF regulations.




Quote:
For example, if you build a stripped AR15 with a 20" barrel, unless you physically put a rifle stock on it, it can be whatever you want, rifle, "firearm", or pistol. There's nothing against a pistol with a VERY long barrel.
That's not a very accurate statement. (How do you build a stripped AR?)
If a firearm is built first as a pistol, it may subsequently be reconfigured as a rifle or other firearm and later be configured back to pistol.
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Old April 7, 2019, 04:15 PM   #6
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Then, if the gun is converted to a "firearm," can it legally be converted back into a rifle?
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Old April 7, 2019, 05:24 PM   #7
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“How do you build a stripped AR?”

I live in the state of Michigan and when you buy a stripped AR lower they do a background check on you and then sell you a unregistered lower. When you build it into a firearm or rifle you need not do anything else as far as they are concerned. If you put a stock on it before turning it into a pistol you are breaking the law because once you had put a stock on it you have a rifle and nothing short of a tax stamp will change that. When I build a pistol in Michigan out of the same lower you have to register it with the state as a pistol. It is up to you to take care of the registration.
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Old April 7, 2019, 06:03 PM   #8
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Bill DeShivs Then, if the gun is converted to a "firearm," can it legally be converted back into a rifle?
If the firearm in question was first assembled as a "pistol":
pistol>rifle>pistol>firearm>rifle>firearm>pistol.

The old saying "Once a rifle, always a rifle" was negated by U.S. vs Thompson Center and ATF Ruling 2011-4 https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ru...stols/download

Now it's accurate to say: "First a rifle, always a rifle".
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Old April 7, 2019, 06:14 PM   #9
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rep1954
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“How do you build a stripped AR?”
I live in the state of Michigan and when you buy a stripped AR lower they do a background check on you and then sell you a unregistered lower.
First...my "how do you build a stripped AR" is kind of tongue in cheek because if it's "built" it isn't "stripped".

In every state, Federal law requires the dealer to record a frame or receiver as an "Other Firearm" on the Form 4473. And in every state a purchase of a frame or receiver is subject to the Brady Law.

No matter what your state law is, the dealer cannot indicate that a firearm receiver is a Handgun or a Long Gun. If you state has additional paperwork for reporting such state requirements then he would be required to record that.



Quote:
When you build it into a firearm or rifle you need not do anything else as far as they are concerned. If you put a stock on it before turning it into a pistol you are breaking the law because once you had put a stock on it you have a rifle and nothing short of a tax stamp will change that.
Are you sure that's your state law? Because that's not Federal law.
An AR lower with attached shoulder stock is not a handgun or long gun until assembled as such.....meaning completed. Until it has a barrel attached it does not meet the definition of "rifle" in Federal law.
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Old April 7, 2019, 06:39 PM   #10
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Now it's accurate to say: "First a rifle, always a rifle".
I'm glad you came back to that. I was about to get my 'frantic typing' gloves on and have at it.

---

So, case in point of "not a rifle":



The upper normally lives on a "rifle" lower (though, I bought it as a receiver, so it could be a 'handgun' if the stock was removed).

I was having some issues forming cases properly and ended up having to chamber-check each and every case after the forming processes. The easiest way to get the job done, since that upper was NOT on its usual rifle lower at the time, was to just grab my pistol lower (also shipped/transferred as just a receiver) and use it to hold the upper on the mag well block that lives next to my vise.

As it sits, that's a "handgun" ... even though the overall length is around 42+ inches and it weighs about 12 lbs. (11 lb 3.4 oz in rifle form; but that pistol lower actually weighs more than the rifle lower.)


But... as illogical as it is to consider that a "handgun", if I added a vertical fore-grip to that free-float tube, things would get muddy.
If you still consider it a "handgun", then it's an illegal AOW.
If you believe it to be a rifle with a very uncomfortable butt, then it's just a rifle (with a vertical fore-grip).

The NFA, while difficult to understand at times (especially when first trying to wrap your head around it), usually does provide pretty clear answers to what qualifies as what. But you can also find yourself in a situation with something like the above photo, where one person might consider it to still be a handgun and another might consider it to now be a rifle - with both being correct (and arguably wrong) at the same time.

Bottom line: As it sits, that is NOT a rifle. It's still a "handgun".
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File Type: jpg chamberchecking.jpg (130.7 KB, 222 views)
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Old April 7, 2019, 10:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
Absolutely not.
A firearm serial number has absolutely nothing to do with whether a firearm is a handgun/rifle/shotgun/silencer/etc
That is extraordinary false. Go buy a standard Mossberg 500 and if you throw a Shockwave barrel/grip on it doesn't suddenly make it a Shockwave. It makes it a prison sentence....

Quote:
it may subsequently be reconfigured as a rifle or other firearm and later be configured back to pistol.
Also alarmingly false. Someone who obviously never heard the term "once a rifle, always a rifle" yet decides to post in the NFA forum...

Is it lunacy? OF COURSE. It is the law? Yes, unfortunately.
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Old April 8, 2019, 10:04 AM   #12
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Old April 8, 2019, 10:14 AM   #13
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Quote:
MagnumWill
Quote:
Quote:
Absolutely not.
A firearm serial number has absolutely nothing to do with whether a firearm is a handgun/rifle/shotgun/silencer/etc
That is extraordinary false.
Okay, show us in Federal law or ATF regulations where a firearms serial number indicates whether its a pistol/shotgun/rifle/etc.

I'll save you the embarrassement…...it doesn't appear. In fact, some firearms are not required to have serial numbers.




Quote:
Go buy a standard Mossberg 500 and if you throw a Shockwave barrel/grip on it doesn't suddenly make it a Shockwave. It makes it a prison sentence....
But that wasn't your claim was it?


Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
it may subsequently be reconfigured as a rifle or other firearm and later be configured back to pistol.
Also alarmingly false. Someone who obviously never heard the term "once a rifle, always a rifle" yet decides to post in the NFA forum...
This is why you should never post about firearms law ever, ever again. Despite me posting a link to ATF Ruling 2011-4 above, you still post nonsense…...and that nonsense became nonsense almost EIGHT YEARS AGO!


Quote:
Is it lunacy? OF COURSE. It is the law? Yes, unfortunately.
You wouldn't know the law if someone posted a link to it.
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Old April 8, 2019, 10:42 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by MagnumWill View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Absolutely not.
A firearm serial number has absolutely nothing to do with whether a firearm is a handgun/rifle/shotgun/silencer/etc
That is extraordinary false. Go buy a standard Mossberg 500 and if you throw a Shockwave barrel/grip on it doesn't suddenly make it a Shockwave. It makes it a prison sentence....

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
it may subsequently be reconfigured as a rifle or other firearm and later be configured back to pistol.
Also alarmingly false. Someone who obviously never heard the term "once a rifle, always a rifle" yet decides to post in the NFA forum...

Is it lunacy? OF COURSE. It is the law? Yes, unfortunately.
No, Tom is correct. You’re the one who shouldn’t be posting bad information in the NFA forum.

First, a serial number itself has zero bearing on what type of firearm it is. Take my Aero lower receiver I have lying around that I haven’t built yet: If I build it first as a pistol then I can always switch it back and forth between being a pistol or a rifle. If I build it first as a rifle, then I can’t ever build it as a pistol. The serial number has zero effect on that, it’s all in how I build it.

Your example of the Mossberg 500 doesn’t have anything to do with the serial number. The 500 in your example can’t be made into a Shockwave “firearm” because the manufacturer built it as a shotgun first, not because of what the serial number is.

And as far as your “once a rifle, always a rifle” comment, that went away a long time ago. If you’ve never heard of ATF Ruling 2011-4 then you’re way behind on your NFA knowledge and you should read up before you post advice on these matters.
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Old April 8, 2019, 02:00 PM   #15
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Quote:
A firearm serial number has absolutely nothing to do with whether a firearm is a handgun/rifle/shotgun/silencer/etc
What "dictates" whether a particular firearm is a rifle/pistol/etc is by the definitions in Federal law/ATF regulations.
This is essentially correct, however it leaves out some information I think some here are missing. And by the same token, those saying the serial # classifies the gun are also leaving out some information.

It is not the number alone, as a number, that defines which class the arm fits it, that is the function of the registration (USING the ser#) as the ID for the gun.

Quote:
In fact, some firearms are not required to have serial numbers.
This is true, if it was manufactured before 1968 and never had a serial number applied. Both conditions must apply, or its not legal.
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Old April 8, 2019, 02:47 PM   #16
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44 AMP Quote:


Quote:
Quote:
In fact, some firearms are not required to have serial numbers.
This is true, if it was manufactured before 1968 and never had a serial number applied. Both conditions must apply, or its not legal.
Don't forget 80% or "homemade" firearms...no serial# or any other marking required under Federal law.
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Old April 9, 2019, 01:05 AM   #17
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Don't forget 80% or "homemade" firearms...no serial# or any other marking required under Federal law.
As I understand it, 80% is just that, its not a firearm because its only 80% finished, so no number needed until it becomes a firearm.

And I'm no expert, best ask them direct, but while I think there isn't a ser# requirement for something you make, it only applies as long as it's yours. If you sell it, trade it, or give it to someone else, a serial # is required, and I believe it must be at least 3 digits or more. Plus the name and address of the maker, because its now "in commerce".
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Old April 9, 2019, 10:56 AM   #18
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Don't forget 80% or "homemade" firearms...no serial# or any other marking required under Federal law.
As I understand it, 80% is just that, its not a firearm because its only 80% finished, so no number needed until it becomes a firearm.
I was referring to making a "80% or "homemade" firearm" into a complete firearm.

Quote:
And I'm no expert, best ask them direct, but while I think there isn't a ser# requirement for something you make, it only applies as long as it's yours. If you sell it, trade it, or give it to someone else, a serial # is required, and I believe it must be at least 3 digits or more. Plus the name and address of the maker, because its now "in commerce".
There is no federal requirement to engrave any information on a firearm you make yourself for personal use.
Here's a good read on whether you should engrave markings before transferring to another person:
http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2...emade-firearm/
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Old April 10, 2019, 07:45 AM   #19
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"No matter what your state law is, the dealer cannot indicate that a firearm receiver is a Handgun or a Long Gun."

Praise the Lord, I finally have to agree with DTT.
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