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Old January 27, 2001, 02:03 PM   #1
Gino
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*Cross-posted to The Firing Line and Glocktalk*

Over the last couple of years, I've been interested in the "Man against Dog" threads on these forums. My next door neighbor has a large pitt bull that is vicious. It bites the fence and goes nuts every time someone passes by their house. My girlfriend and I couldn't go in our own back yard without this beast trying to get out and kill us. One time it got under their fence and attacked my little dog. Luckily, the owner was able to grab it and get it under control. (I didn't have my pistol on me at the time.)

I've thought quite a bit about my possible options about dealing with this dog. The owner (kid in his early 20s) just didn't have a clue how to raise this thing. It's usually left in their fenced-in back yard and ignored. Over the last year, this dog seems to have gotten steadily more dangerous. But what could I do? I've talked to animal control about this dog, but they didn't feel that they could do anything unless it actually attacked someone. I've read some of your responses in other threads, and the only one that sounded good was to inform their homeowners insurance that they had a vicious dog living with them. (But I couldn't figure out how to find out which company.)

Yesterday, after my girlfriend got out of her car, this pitt bull dragged the owner's mother across the front yard and attacked my girlfriend. (while still on its leash) Luckily, she was able to hold it off and the other woman dragged it off of her. My GF didn't get bite, but it did tear her cloths and jerked her around pretty badly. My GF made it into the house and I got a gun, but the dog had taken off by then. We called the police and animal control and they came and got the animal.

According to the police officer, the dog will be declared a vicious dog. This means the owner will be fined and the dog will have to be contained in an enclosure - cement floor and chained sides and ceiling as per Florida state law. According to him, it will cost this kid around $1500 to get the dog back. If the kid does try to get this dog back, we're going to fight it. I'll go down to animal control and see what they say Monday afternoon.

I wanted to post this so that others could learn from our unfortunate incident. We didn't do anything to get the dog out of the neighborhood and look what happened. Luckily, my GF didn't get bitten, just jerked around. However, she is partially disabled from a back injury and she is pretty sore. I just don't know what I could legally have done before this happened...
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Old January 27, 2001, 02:21 PM   #2
Mike Irwin
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Well, here's another way of dealing with it.

Your girlfrinend needs to go to the doctor complaining of a sore whatever. Neck, back, shoulder, etc.

X-rays, check up, etc.

Then you need to get a copy of the report from the police. That report will most likely have the name of the insurance carrier on it.

Then you need to inform the homeowner that you expect them to pay the GF's medical bills. If that doesn't happen, file a claim with the owner's insurance. If you get jerked around there, take it to court.

The insurance company will, no matter what, get dragged in and will become aware of the problems with this dog.

I'm firmly of the opinion that unless the a dog has a medical condition, NO dog is naturally vicious. Protective, yes. Vicious, no. It's people who make dogs vicious.
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Old January 27, 2001, 03:00 PM   #3
DC
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Indeed, fight it

Don't get me wrong, I adore dogs, especially mine...however:

Quote:
Powerful Dogs Maul Woman, Kill Her
S.F. neighbors' pets lunged down hallway
Michael Pena, Matthew Taylor and Jaxon Van Derbeken, Chronicle Staff Writers
Saturday, January 27, 2001
©2001 San Francisco Chronicle

URL: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...7/MN139736.DTL



A San Francisco woman died last night after being attacked inside her apartment building by two bullmastiffs as the
dogs' horrified owner struggled to pull them away.

The leashed dogs -- with a combined weight of 233 pounds -- bolted from Marjorie Knoller's Pacific Heights
apartment, dragged her down the hallway and lunged for the 32-year-old victim's throat as she frantically tried to
open her front door, police and witnesses said.

The animals mauled the victim for about five minutes before Knoller, who was also bloodied in the 4 p.m. melee,
could pull them back into her apartment at the corner of Pacific Avenue and Fillmore Street.

The victim died at 8:55 p.m. at San Francisco General Hospital, where she had undergone surgery for deep bite
wounds on her throat. Authorities withheld her name at her family's request.

Paramedics had performed cardiopulmonary resuscitation as they raced the unconscious woman, who was near
death and bleeding profusely, to the hospital.

"When she arrived . . . she was in full cardiac arrest," said Dr. S. Marshall Isaacs, an emergency room physician.
"There were no signs of life."

SURGEONS WORKED

Surgeons spent almost two hours repairing the veins and arteries of her neck. Some of wounds were 1 1/2 inches
deep, Isaacs said, and doctors had to insert a tube into her throat to support her trachea. She remained in "very
critical" condition for 70 minutes after surgery before dying.

Detectives initiated an investigation into the attack almost immediately.

"They need to determine if anything criminal occurred," said Police Lt. Mary Stasko. "Right now it's a horrible
accident. But they'll interview people to see if there's any history of aggression or any negligence."

The attack came as Knoller returned from walking the dogs around her Pacific Heights neighborhood, police
investigators said. The victim apparently arrived home at about the same time.

The dogs were still on their leashes when they bolted from Knoller's sixth- floor apartment and bounded 15 feet down
the hallway toward the victim, who was unlocking her door, police and witnesses said.

Bane, a 2 1/2-year-old male bullmastiff weighing 120 pounds, grabbed the victim by the throat, police said. A
2-year-old female named Hera and weighing 113 pounds joined the attack moments later.

A STRUGGLE

Knoller struggled to pull the dogs off of the screaming woman, said Robert Noel, Knoller's husband.

"My wife was covered with blood from the top of her head to her feet," said Noel, who arrived just after the attack
ended. "Most of it was somebody else's (blood)."

Witnesses painted a harrowing picture of the attack.

"She was screaming in a major way," said David Kuenzi of New York, who was visiting a friend in the building. "I
personally thought she was being mugged or raped."

Police and paramedics found the woman lying in blood, with bloody handprints covering the walls. Bits of clothing
littered the floor, and a blood-soaked green nylon leash was lying nearby.

"It was a gruesome scene," said San Francisco Police Officer Leslie Forrestal. "There was shredded clothing,
obviously a lot of blood. It was horrific."

TRANQUILIZERS USED

Animal control officers fired three tranquilizer darts into Bane before removing him and Hera from Knoller's
apartment. They remained locked up last night in the city's animal shelter.

Although they stand little more than two feet at the shoulders, bullmastiffs are powerful dogs that can reach 130
pounds. According to the American Kennel Club, they are fearless yet docile and "dependable family companions."

The dogs were originally bred in England by crossing mastiffs -- which are slightly larger than bullmastiffs -- with
bulldogs to create dogs capable of protecting livestock and game from poachers.

Noel, an attorney, said he obtained the dogs several months ago from a family that planned to breed the dogs before
giving them up.

"They weren't really being taken care of very well," he said. "They apparently had been chained out in the weather."

Noel said the animals had no history of aggression and had seen the victim on several occasions without acting
aggressive.

"I've had 80-year-old ladies want to come up and pet them," he said. "The dogs have always been really
people-friendly."

But some of Noel's neighbors said they were intimidated by the animals' imposing size and always gave them a wide
berth.

"People are visibly taken aback when they see the size of these dogs," said Ed Lewis, who lives on the fifth floor.
"When neighbors have complained, they (the owners) have been standoffish."

The last dog attack that made headlines in San Francisco occurred on last March when Sidney, an Old English
sheepdog, bit San Francisco police officer Jennifer Dorantes.

The attack came as Dorantes and her partner, Officer Julian Ng, responded to a 911 call at a home in the
Castro-Amazon district. Ng fired at the dog and missed, instead wounding his partner and an 11-year-old boy in the
house.

-

BULLMASTIFF

The breed was originally developed in England by gamekeepers seeking protection of livestock from poachers and
hunters. -- Size: Up to 27 inches tall at the shoulders -- Weight: 110 to 130 pounds -- Appearance: Broad, square
skulls; thick necks; compact, muscular bodies; short dense fur -- Color: Red, fawn or brindle -- Disposition: Alert,
intelligent and dependable animals that are eager to pleaseSource: American Kennel ClubChronicle Graphic

E-mail Michael Pena at [email protected] / E-mail Matthew Taylor at [email protected] /
E-mail Jaxon Van Derbeken at [email protected]

©2001 San Francisco Chronicle Page A1
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Old January 27, 2001, 03:32 PM   #4
4V50 Gary
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Yes, fight it!

But if you lose and that irresponsible kid gets his dog back, have your gun ready. As much as I hate to shoot someone's pet, where the owner is irresponsible and the pet out of control, it becomes a necessary measure.
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Old January 27, 2001, 04:18 PM   #5
Keith Rogan
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I love dogs, and I happen to especially love big dogs. It's shame that people will raise an animal to be out of control like that - I believe that any breed can be gentle and responsive if the owner takes the time to train them properly.
I have what is euphemistically called a "98% Wolf Hybrid" - yeah, one of those slavering wolf dogs that will kill you as soon as look at you. Except she won't. She'll wag her tail and lick your hand because she loves everyone.

Anyway, I hate to see a dog killed. Here's what I'd do. I sit out in my yard and wait for the damned thing to throw itself against the fence and then blast it right in the face with a can of pepper spray. I think that's easily justifiable - "I thought it was going to break through the fence..."
Once would be good, but if you could this a couple of times this animal will likely never attack anyone again. If the owners won't train with positive reinforcement, then it's up to somebody else to use negative reinforcement.

When you can be out in your own yard without the animal growling or displaying aggression, toss it a treat - the positive reinforcement. You don't want the animal to avoid people because of fear, but to like people because they'll be nice.

Aggressive behavior = pain. Friendly behavior = food.



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Old January 27, 2001, 05:14 PM   #6
Sisco
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Decon (sp?) stuffed hot dog with an anti-freeze chaser?
Last resort but it might save you getting cited for unlawful discharge.
My wife works for a Vet., his advice to anyone who brings in an aggressive animal is to destroy it before it destroys someone you love.
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Old January 27, 2001, 07:01 PM   #7
MH
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I grew up with dogs, and have had several throughout my adult life, and have two now. When I first married my wife over 20 years ago, she had a male doberman who was extremely intelligent and wild. If I knew as much about dogs then as I do know, I think I could have trained him to where he would have been ok. In three days, he bit my son; cornered the little boy next door (he was so fast I could not get him to let the little boy go for over 10minutes); and then he cornered our pregnant neighbor, again for over 5 minutes. I had him put to sleep. Dogs vary, most are easy to train, but some dogs are inherently aggressive. I think chaining any dog for long periods of time could make a dog aggressive. I read that most pit bulls are very good with children - they have been bred to not bite their handlers during a dog fight. There is a small percentage of pit bulls who show agression to humans, and good breeders destroy those. The problem seems to be that we have slob breeders who are not doing their job.
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Old January 27, 2001, 07:26 PM   #8
dZ
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Attack dogs as a status symbol by suburban youth is an issue with many facets.

An animal needs a loving home or it will be a menace.

What would the result from the same attack on a 4 year old child?

dZ
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Old January 27, 2001, 07:53 PM   #9
OkieGentleman
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My next door neighbor of several years ago had a Dobby. The dog would hit the fence and nearly tear it down. I had at that time two small daughters that I was afraid to let in the back yard by themselves as I was afraid the blasted thing would come over the fence and hurt them. I asked my neighbor over for a little chat about the dog and even offered to help him build a dog run for the dog, but he kept insisting the dog was not a problem. While we were talking, his brother came over and said the dog had gone nuts and had bitten him.
At this point I informed my neighbor that when the girls went out to play in the back yard I was going to sit out there with a pistol. If the dog got all 4 feet on the fence I was going to shoot it. When he complained that he would not stand for that I informed him that the fence was 6 inches inside my property and if the dog was on my property it was going to be a dead dog. He shut up and went home to bandage his brothers hand.
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Old January 27, 2001, 09:21 PM   #10
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Where are the cries about "attack dogs"?

Where are the cries of, "No one 'needs' one of these dogs"?

Where are the cries of, "These dogs are 'bred to kill'"?

Where is the argument that "You could get just as much enjoyment/companionship from a bassett hound"?

Why aren't the AKC and the "dog lobby" being demonized?

Wait - those all sound kind of absurd, don't they?
 
Old January 27, 2001, 10:19 PM   #11
Oleg Volk
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Actually, plenty of people would like and have banned certain dog breeds. A close analogy to guns than I thought.
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Old January 27, 2001, 11:05 PM   #12
444
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Yes, there have been attempts to ban dogs, just like guns. I fought a "dangerous dog ordinance" locally. Actually this issue is much closer to a racial issue than an issue similar to gun control. These dogs were going to be singled out because of their breed; not anything they actually did. I am sure the liberals fail to see the irony in this. Dogs by nature are territorial, we just don't pay much attention when a small dog is defending it's territory.
Attempting to poison, injure, or kill your neighbor's dog while it is on his property could certainly result in serious repercussions. I am sure he could sue you, not to mention any personal revenge he might want to take. I can guarentee that if I found someone who poisoned my dog, only one of us would be left standing. I respect my dog much more than I respect the vast majority of people I have met. I own a 127 lb rottweiler. He is never outside unless I am watching him. He is trained, obeys commands promptly, and spends 99% of his time in the house. However, if you come in my yard, in my house, or near my truck, you had better be prepared to deal with the consequences of YOUR actions. He is authorized to be in those areas, I gave no such autorization to anyone else. This type of behavior was considered desirable since the earliest times, until the lawyers got into the picture. I realize that there are many problem dogs out there. The biggest problem is the thousands of people who buy or get a dog for some reason then totally ignore it. Dogs crave human interaction. Dogs are pack animals and consider themselves to be part of your pack. Being chained in the backyard and ignored goes against every gene bred into them for centuries. If we desire to shape a dogs behavior we have to train them in that behavior, no different than children. They arn't born with a set of rules as to what is acceptable or unacceptable in our society. We spend countless hours discussing firearms for personal protection. I wasn't aware that personal protection meant only protection against humans. Personal protection could encompass anything from poisonous snakes, to bears, to mountain lions, to dogs, right up to humans. We pretty much all agree that personal protection is our responsibility. Victims of dog attacks are not much different than victims of attack by humans. They failed to take the nessessary steps to ensure their own safety. Hopefully they learn from this and take the appropriate steps to prevent this from happening again instead of adopting the victim mentality. I hope your girlfriend recovers quickly and with as little pain as possible. This would be a great time to explain the basics of personal protection to her.
__________________
You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.
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Old January 28, 2001, 12:53 AM   #13
JerryM
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444,
. "Victims of dog attacks are not much different than victims of attack by humans. They failed to take the nessessary steps to ensure their own safety. Hopefully they learn from
this and take the appropriate steps to prevent this from happening again instead of adopting the victim mentality."

That is an incredible statement. What necessary steps would you recommend a person who goes out in his yard to get the paper, or is going for a walk, or a child who is playing outside take to insure his own safety? It is my opinion that we have the right to go about our business free from attacks from dogs or people. We can stay away from bad neighborhoods or areas of cities, but roaming dogs can cover a lot of territory. Vicious dogs should be immediately put to death, whether it is the lack of training by the owner or whatever. I don't accept any excuse for a dog any more than for a human. When animals and humans conflict in a neighborhood the animals should go.
I would consider bringing a lawsuit against my neighbor in this case. Jerry
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Old January 28, 2001, 01:16 AM   #14
444
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"What necessary steps would you recommend a person who goes out in his yard to get the paper, or is going for a walk, or a child who is playing outside take to insure his own safety?"
The same steps you would take to protect yourself in the event of an atack by a human. For most of us, that is a concealed firearm. People are regularly attacked by humans when out in their yards, and when taking walks. Children are kidnapped, run over, and victimized in many ways when outside playing. If the cause of the attack happens to be a dog, same solution is advised.
"It is my opinion that we have the right to go about our business free from attacks from dogs or people."
I don't know about a right, but it would certainly be nice. However that isn't reality. Never has been, probably never will be.
"We can stay away from bad neighborhoods or areas of cities, but roaming dogs can cover a lot of territory. "
You may think that you are immune from violent crime because of where you live, but I think you should reconsider that position. Why would someone rob or kidnap someone in a poor neighborhood when they could get more out of it in a weathy neighborhood ? I don't know about you but I would have to really go out of my way to stay out of "bad" neighborhoods. Often times that is the most convienient and quickest way to get where I am going. This also presumes that you know where the "bad" neighborhoods are.
You will also notice that my statements regarding the dog in question applied only while the dog was in the owners yard. Once he is out, and being a menace, we have the right to protect ourselves.
__________________
You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.
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Old January 28, 2001, 01:22 AM   #15
Bottom Gun
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I think Mike Irwin's advice is sound although your girl friend may have to file a claim against YOUR homeowner's insurance to get the ball rolling and let them recover damages from your neighbor's insurance.
Once the problem is brought to the insurance companies, you will most likely have seen the last of the dog because the insurance people will most likely start making things very unpleasant and expensive for your neighbor.
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Old January 28, 2001, 01:31 AM   #16
Mike Irwin
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Bottom Gun,

The only way the girl friend would have to file a claim against Gino's insurance would be if the attack happened on Gino's property. That, of course, depends on the state in which the attack occurred.

If it happened curbside or elsewhere off of his property, Gino's insurance wouldn't become involved.
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Old January 28, 2001, 08:05 AM   #17
MH
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444- I certainly love my dogs, and would look for retribution if someone unnecessarily killed one. You can torture people very effectively in court, without having to kill them, where you would end up going to jail, leaving you and your family as the losers, and they would no longer be able to suffer.
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Old January 28, 2001, 08:14 AM   #18
444
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MH: I hear what you are saying, but I personally believe the court system, sueing people, lawyers........ to be the lowest of the low. The scum of the earth. I would not lower myself to sic them on anyone, anymore than I would attend a satanic church service. I would consider someone who killed my dog for fun to be at a higher level than a personal injury attorney. For the record, I didn't say I would kill them, I only said one of us would be left standing.
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Old January 28, 2001, 10:29 AM   #19
Bottom Gun
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Mike,

I agree. You are absolutely right. I assumed his girl was attacked on his property.

BG
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Old January 28, 2001, 10:43 AM   #20
Steel
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Cheese soaked in liquid pesticide for 5 hours works for me...just kidding(?)
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Old January 28, 2001, 10:58 AM   #21
MrKandiyohi
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In regards to whose insurance company is involved: Didn't the neighbor's 'property' attack the girlfriend? I'm not expert in law, but I thought I'd bring up this aspect.

Things I would do:

1) Get the attack reported to police and obtain a copy of the paperwork. [do not falsify any medical record just to strenghthen your case, it's strong enough]

2) Let the neighbor and his insurance company know that the neighbor has been informed that his dog attacked someone, that the police have been informed of the attack and that you have documented this attack.

As an aside, you may want to ask the insurace company what liability limits, in dollars, the neighbor has. Of course, the company won't answer that, but they'll get the drift. The neighbor will, too.
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Old January 28, 2001, 11:10 AM   #22
dZ
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An AR15 in my gunsafe is under control and will not spontaneously seek out conflict. It is an inanimate machine without free will. Its "safety" is implicit in my responsible control methodology.

A dog with the genetic predisposition to fighting is IMHO more dangerous for irresponsible ownership.

As an aside, could a fighting dog be protected as a militia arm under the second amendment?

- doc Zox
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Old January 28, 2001, 11:52 AM   #23
Dennis Olson
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Well 444, if YOUR dog (or any other) attacked me or my family NO MATTER WHAT (as long as I/we weren't doing something illegal), that dog would be dead. RTFN. If you (or anyone else) "came at me" to do physical harm "in revenge", you (or anyone else) would immediately join your (or their) dog in "heaven". My wife and both my boys are armed and KNOW HOW TO SHOOT, and would, upon the sound of the first gunshot, be covering me, or I them.

Now, what were you saying again...? I think a dog owner, upon having their animal killed (supposedly in self-defense) had better step back and asess the ENTIRE situation, call the cops, and get all the "facts" prior to taking ANY action. I think your testosterone level might be a tad high...
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Old January 28, 2001, 12:10 PM   #24
dZ
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Friday January 26 08:49 PM EST
Woman Attacked by Pit Bull in SF, Not Expected to Live

By KPIX - BCN

San Francisco police are using tranquilizer guns to capture two pit bull dogs who attacked a woman in the hallway of her apartment building
today.

Police spokesman Sherman Ackerson said the woman in her 20s was confronted by the dogs in her building at 2398 Pacific Ave. at about 4
p.m.

He said at least one of the dogs grabbed the woman in the throat. She was taken to San Francisco General Hospital and "she is not expected to
live," he said.

Police and animal control officials are currently on the scene.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/kpix/20...to_live_1.html
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Old January 28, 2001, 12:11 PM   #25
Herodotus
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There never was a dog that could read a human deed or lease and there never was a dog that ever understood the American concept of life, liberty or property.
Owners of dogs should realize that it they who are responsible for the damage they cause when they get out of the owner's control as they invariably will. It is not wise to keep any dog that has shown a disposition towards, much less actually has a history of, attacking other people.
Back in the eighties when Regan was president, courts were averaging $75,000 per bite in cases of this type and much, much more in cases where injuries were serious. I can only imagine that the situation is more horrific today.
A lot of people today are getting big dogs in the mistaken notion that this is the essence of a good guard dog. A very large percent of these people have absolutely no notion about training and handling of these dogs and have absolutely no judgement of the breed's tempermentment nor the importance of this aspect of a dog's character, even that it is indeed quite variable.
I know that people love their dogs. Dogs are experts at working their way into the human family and that is the basis of their great value to us. But it is always the human that must take the responsibility for what the dog does. Many do not and I guess human character is variable as well, isn't it?
Some dogs are great and some are nothing but a pain in the neck or worse. People shoulkd realize that not all of them work out.
In any case, I think you are much better off looking to your own defense instead of expecting a dog to do it. Using a dog as a weapon will cause more harm to you than the enemy, as they cannot be controled as a weapon should always be under one's control.
They make piss poor weapons and always have.
Dog's do have other useful values.
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